Euchre Seat 2 Order or Pass

Ask questions, discuss and debate your strategies, euchre polls and more
Post Reply
Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Euchre Seat 2 Order or Pass

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:14 pm

Round 1, Seat 2, Score 5-4, Equal Ave+ players
Upcard (Card_10-D)
Hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-H)
Order or pass?
This is just shy of my edge order. But, I have nothing blocked and no reasonable call for Round 2. So I accepted the risk and ordered. Being down 5-6 was more acceptable than risking 5-8 if Opponents took 4 points.



RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Seat 2, I'm extremely hesitant to order up with a hand like this. The dealer could very easily be holding something like this:

(Card_J-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_10-C)

Your order would kill the chance of your partner going alone and making 4 points. As you said, you have nothing, but your partner might. Remember that he has a real advantage here.

Note that the odds that your partner has a bower are higher because you don't have one. There's only 18 unknown cards and 4 of them are jacks.

You correctly assume that you have nothing here, but I'd say that your hand is too weak or order. Let your partner make the decision. If he passes, there's a decent chance that he'll have something that'll stop a loner call in the second round.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:12 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:14 pm
Round 1, Seat 2, Score 5-4, Equal Ave+ players
Upcard (Card_10-D)
Hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-H)
Order or pass?
This is just shy of my edge order. But, I have nothing blocked and no reasonable call for Round 2. So I accepted the risk and ordered. Being down 5-6 was more acceptable than risking 5-8 if Opponents took 4 points.
Only when my partner is a really bad player, who passes lots of biddables/barely ever going alone, do I start ordering "Best I got and I block nothing" hands from the 2 seat at relatively neutral scores. In most cases, you should trust your partner and pass with this hand being wary of blocking his possible loner.

That said if I'm up say 8-1, I'm ordering with this hand no matter what the nature of my partner. Now I'm not worried about blocking my partners 4 point loner cuz we're at 8, and with a nice lead, and a hand that blocks nothing with no where to go in the 2nd round, I'm definitely gonna order "best I got" to prevent any chance of Seat 1 being a hero in the 2nd round.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm

Thanks RedDuke and Wes for your analysis and your reminders.

Let’s continue the discussion:
1. What would be your edge hand(s) from S2, R1?
2, I only consider Partner, in S4, calling Alone if A or J is the Up Card. Do you use the Up Card as a parameter in similar situations? How?
3. If blocking up 8-1 is a good idea, would blocking at 8-2 be a good idea? 8-3? Where would you draw the line?
4. Does the thought process change if the score is 9-1, 9-2, etc.?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:54 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
1. What would be your edge hand(s) from S2, R1?
First let's get what I consider the non-edge hands out of the way. Assume neutral score and assume my team isn't on 9 or 8. Any time I have 3 trump I'm calling unless I have a euchre hand. Any time I have Right + 1 I'm calling unless I have a euchre hand. Any time I have Left + 1 + an off ace and I only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits in the 2nd round I'm calling unless the Right is up and I have mad respect for my partner. If I have Left + 1 + an off ace but I block all suits (I.E. I have a stopper hand) then I would pass regardless of upcard.

An edge hand that comes to mind is when we have Left + 1 + an off ace and we block 2 out of the 3 remaining suits in the 2nd round. A hand like this:

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-C) and we are in the 2 seat with:

(Card_J-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-S)

We have a next call in big trouble plus we have an easy reverse next call in diamonds should the action get back to us. I would pass this hand in the first round at 0-0. But if someone advocated for always calling with Left + 1 + an off ace when they don't block all suits I would not tell them they are wrong. I think it's close. They could easily be right. Certainly with a nice lead I'm always calling with Left + 1 + an off ace when I don't block all suits including the hand example above. In that scenario might as well make sure Seat 1 never gets a chance at a 4 point loner no matter how rare.

Another edge hand that comes to mind is when we have a hand like this:

Score is 0-0, dealer upcard is the (Card_K-S), we are in the 2 seat with:

(Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H)

I think this is a call unless your partner is a strong player. I also think going alone is fine but I know most people think that's crazy, but going alone is absolutely the right play at 0-0 if you feel your team is the underdog usually due to the fact that your partner is pretty bad. When your team is the underdog you need to be in MAKE PLAYS mode every snap of the game, upping the variance, trying to win the game in as few hands as possible. Basically any time we have 2 non-bower trump + 2 aces in the 2 spot we are in an edge situation imo.

Another edge hand: Having the Right + 2 off aces.

Score is 0-0, dealer upcard is (Card_10-C). You're in the 2 seat with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H)

I'm calling this unless my partner is a strong player. The fact that we block nothing in the 2nd rd is worth noting too.

Lastly I would say any time we have 2 trump + an off ace and we block nothing in the 2nd rd and have no where to go in the 2nd round, I would call that an edge spot. A hand like this:

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is (Card_9-C), we are in the 2 seat with:

(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_10-H)

We block nothing in the 2nd, have nowhere to go in the 2nd, clubs is clearly the best we got. I'm calling this hand unless I have a strong partner, which means I'm calling most of the time becuz strong partners are rather rare.

Keep in mind once our team is at 8 or 9 points so called edge hands now become standard calls in most instances. Not having to worry about blocking our partner's loner means we should loosen up our range a bit (altho we can't screw around at scores up 9-8, 8-8, up 8-7).
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
2, I only consider Partner, in S4, calling Alone if A or J is the Up Card. Do you use the Up Card as a parameter in similar situations? How?
Assuming my team has less than 8 I only think about the possibility of blocking my partner's loner when the Right is up. For example, if I have Left + 1 and nothing else I will back off and pass if my partner is a strong player but order it if not. Although if my team is down by a lot I'm not ordering up the Right unless I have 3 trump or I'm going alone myself even if I have a weak partner. Sometimes you're in a spot where you just have to hope your partner "has it", like if you're down 6-1 or something or obv down 9-6/9-7.

Another example where I'm ordering up the right with a relatively weak holding:

My team is up 7-1. The upcard is the (Card_J-C), I'm in the 2 seat with:

(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-H)

If my partner is not a strong player I'm ordering this up. Not taking the chance of him passing when we have a decent chance of scoring and I block nothing in the 2nd round. If I block my partner's loner so be it. We'll still likely be up 9-1 with 98% equity. I'm ok with that.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
3. If blocking up 8-1 is a good idea, would blocking at 8-2 be a good idea? 8-3? Where would you draw the line?
I draw the line at up 8-5. This is obviously a dicey play that will go wrong quite often. I like the idea that in the worst case scenario, we're still up 8-7 with 60% equity. I think one could make the argument that we should run this play at up 8-6. Although now when we get euchred we only have 46% equity, one of the pluses to this play is Seat 1 never gets the chance at a game winning loner in the 2nd round. I don't know. I feel good about 8-5, I'm just not sure about 8-6.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
4. Does the thought process change if the score is 9-1, 9-2, etc.?
Same thought process. When your team is at 9 with a nice lead you should be trying to close out the game as fast as possible. All "best I got, I block nothing and have nowhere to go in the 2nd round" type hands become standard calls unless you're playing in a tournament where points matter. Of course this begs the same question as above. What's the cutoff as far as making these loose defensive calls? Well I wouldn't run this play up 9-7. The penalty of getting euchred is too great. And running this play up 9-5 is mandatory since even in the worst case scenario we are still up 9-7 with 77% equity. The edge spot is when we're up 9-6. Getting euchred at that score kinda hurts cuz now you put your enemy in position to close out the game down 9-8 with the deal. I swear when you're running bad it seems like EVERY time your opponents get in that spot they indeed close out. But that said, If I'm gonna run this play up 8-5, I have to run it up 9-6 if I want to be consistent. Remember if we get euchred up 8-5 we end up at 8-7 with 60% equity, and if we get euchred up 9-6 we end up at 9-8 with 64% equity. Can't advocate one without the other. So I would run this play up 9-X when X = 6 or less. It's annoying when we get euchred up 9-6 and put our opponents in a close out position but this strategy also prevents seat 1 from ever winning the game in the 2nd round on a 4 point loner.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:35 pm

Thank you Wes for your thorough, exhaustive and exhausting response. I appreciate all of the detail. I need to simplify your deep points, so that I can understand and implement your strategies and tactics. I am sure that many readers are also overwhelmed by the avalanche of information.[/color]

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:54 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
1. What would be your edge hand(s) from S2, R1?
.

First let's get what I consider the non-edge hands out of the way. Assume neutral score and assume my team isn't on 9 or 8. Any time I have 3 trump I'm calling unless I have a euchre hand. Any time I have Right + 1 I'm calling unless I have a euchre hand. Any time I have Left + 1 + an off ace and I only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits in the 2nd round I'm calling unless the Right is up and I have mad respect for my partner. If I have Left + 1 + an off ace but I block all suits (I.E. I have a stopper hand) then I would pass regardless of upcard.


Let’s define the non-edge hands but keep it simple by also ignoring euchre hands and blocking hands. My MO (Method of Operation) is to understand and implement the basic concept before even considering advanced concepts. So I am ordering with:
3 trump
Right +1
Left + 1 + off Ace
I am not ignoring euchre hands and blocking hands. I simply want to understand the basics first. IMO, they will be the correct play at least 80% of the time.


An edge hand that comes to mind is when we have Left + 1 + an off ace and we block 2 out of the 3 remaining suits in the 2nd round. A hand like this:

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-C) and we are in the 2 seat with:

(Card_J-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-S)

We have a next call in big trouble plus we have an easy reverse next call in diamonds should the action get back to us. I would pass this hand in the first round at 0-0. But if someone advocated for always calling with Left + 1 + an off ace when they don't block all suits I would not tell them they are wrong. I think it's close. They could easily be right. Certainly with a nice lead I'm always calling with Left + 1 + an off ace when I don't block all suits including the hand example above. In that scenario might as well make sure Seat 1 never gets a chance at a 4 point loner no matter how rare.

Another edge hand that comes to mind is when we have a hand like this:

Score is 0-0, dealer upcard is the (Card_K-S), we are in the 2 seat with:

(Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H)

I think this is a call unless your partner is a strong player. I also think going alone is fine but I know most people think that's crazy, but going alone is absolutely the right play at 0-0 if you feel your team is the underdog usually due to the fact that your partner is pretty bad. When your team is the underdog you need to be in MAKE PLAYS mode every snap of the game, upping the variance, trying to win the game in as few hands as possible. Basically any time we have 2 non-bower trump + 2 aces in the 2 spot we are in an edge situation imo.

IMO, this is an order. I will make a minor adjustment for Partner or Opponents but there has to be a definable limit. This hand has a value of 3.00 and I order with 2.00 from S2. Adjusting -0.25 for a strong Partner is my limit. I’m ordering.

I can see going Alone, but only as a Hail Mary situation.


Another edge hand: Having the Right + 2 off aces.

Score is 0-0, dealer upcard is (Card_10-C). You're in the 2 seat with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H)

I'm calling this unless my partner is a strong player. The fact that we block nothing in the 2nd rd is worth noting too.

To me this is closer to an edge hand. I adjust -0.50 for a singleton trump. (BTW -0.75 for no trump). So I assign 2.25 to this hand vs. 2.00 ordering. A little 0.25 difference is not a slam dunk. But in general I am ordering this hand.

Lastly I would say any time we have 2 trump + an off ace and we block nothing in the 2nd rd and have no where to go in the 2nd round, I would call that an edge spot. A hand like this:

Score is 0-0. Dealer upcard is (Card_9-C), we are in the 2 seat with:

(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_10-H)

We block nothing in the 2nd, have nowhere to go in the 2nd, clubs is clearly the best we got. I'm calling this hand unless I have a strong partner, which means I'm calling most of the time becuz strong partners are rather rare.

This is another near edge hand earning 2.25 points, one click from my 2.00 minimum. This hand is a good hand to see Wes’ wisdom about blocking hands. We block nothing in Next or Reverse Next.

Keep in mind once our team is at 8 or 9 points so called edge hands now become standard calls in most instances. Not having to worry about blocking our partner's loner means we should loosen up our range a bit (altho we can't screw around at scores up 9-8, 8-8, up 8-7).

The score is actually a basic concept. But it comes into play less than 20% of the hands. So I consider it last after exhausting all other basic factors. I loosen up, by adding 0.25 if my team has 8 or 9 points. If we are down 3 or more points, the score is 7-9 or 6-9, it is Hail Mary time! I will add 0.75 points! So Wes’ AQ Trump + AA is a definite Alone call.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
2, I only consider Partner, in S4, calling Alone if A or J is the Up Card. Do you use the Up Card as a parameter in similar situations? How?


Assuming my team has less than 8 I only think about the possibility of blocking my partner's loner when the Right is up. For example, if I have Left + 1 and nothing else I will back off and pass if my partner is a strong player but order it if not. Although if my team is down by a lot I'm not ordering up the Right unless I have 3 trump or I'm going alone myself even if I have a weak partner. Sometimes you're in a spot where you just have to hope your partner "has it", like if you're down 6-1 or something or obv down 9-6/9-7.

Either I am playing the percentages more effectively or I am guilty of over analyzing with Ace as the Up Card. I am talking about an Ace Up Card. 3 trump I am ordering. R or L + 1 though with an Ace Up, I pass with a neutral score and no other factors. I’m estimating Partner/Dealers probability of a Loner have doubled. I don’t want to miss that opportunity. The impact of a Loner call, let alone a Loner success has a major psychological impact on the Opponents!

Another example where I'm ordering up the right with a relatively weak holding:

My team is up 7-1. The upcard is the (Card_J-C), I'm in the 2 seat with:

(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-H)

If my partner is not a strong player I'm ordering this up. Not taking the chance of him passing when we have a decent chance of scoring and I block nothing in the 2nd round. If I block my partner's loner so be it. We'll still likely be up 9-1 with 98% equity. I'm ok with that.

Great example to explain my thoughts on the Up Card. I assign a plus and minus 0.75 to a Jack Up Card. 1.00 is the value as a Right, but the Dealer’s Up Card is worth a minimum 0.25 (9 or T). I add 0.75 to the value of my hand, which encourages me to order up. I also deduct 0.75 to discourage me from ordering and to let Partner have a chance to go Alone. This hand is 2.25 before the Up Card adjustment. At 2,25 points, I am only one “loosen” from a minimal order. Add 0.75 and I have a comfortable order. If I subtract 0.75, I net out at 1.50, I should not order. What should I do? I’m ordering up 7-1, 7-2, 7-3 and 7-4 a minimum 3 point lead. A weak Partner will kick me to ordering up 7-5. I can calibrate my ordering using the point system.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
3. If blocking up 8-1 is a good idea, would blocking at 8-2 be a good idea? 8-3? Where would you draw the line?


I draw the line at up 8-5. This is obviously a dicey play that will go wrong quite often. I like the idea that in the worst case scenario, we're still up 8-7 with 60% equity. I think one could make the argument that we should run this play at up 8-6. Although now when we get euchred we only have 46% equity, one of the pluses to this play is Seat 1 never gets the chance at a game winning loner in the 2nd round. I don't know. I feel good about 8-5, I'm just not sure about 8-6.

I agree at 8-5. I would not order at 8-6. I am an independent insurance agent. As a professional I recommend insurance that protects your assets (your lead) and that you can afford (also your lead). A 3 point lead makes it easy to understand that you can afford to lock in a 2 point loss to prevent a potential 4 point Loner. Wes’ point :( is that your hand is so poor that your EV (Expected Value) is -1, so your net loss is only -1, not -2. I do not disagree with his logic. I choose, probably with prejudice, to “donate” as long as I am 3 points ahead.
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 pm
4. Does the thought process change if the score is 9-1, 9-2, etc.?


Same thought process. When your team is at 9 with a nice lead you should be trying to close out the game as fast as possible. All "best I got, I block nothing and have nowhere to go in the 2nd round" type hands become standard calls unless you're playing in a tournament where points matter. Of course this begs the same question as above. What's the cutoff as far as making these loose defensive calls? Well I wouldn't run this play up 9-7. The penalty of getting euchred is too great. And running this play up 9-5 is mandatory since even in the worst case scenario we are still up 9-7 with 77% equity. The edge spot is when we're up 9-6. Getting euchred at that score kinda hurts cuz now you put your enemy in position to close out the game down 9-8 with the deal. I swear when you're running bad it seems like EVERY time your opponents get in that spot they indeed close out. But that said, If I'm gonna run this play up 8-5, I have to run it up 9-6 if I want to be consistent. Remember if we get euchred up 8-5 we end up at 8-7 with 60% equity, and if we get euchred up 9-6 we end up at 9-8 with 64% equity. Can't advocate one without the other. So I would run this play up 9-X when X = 6 or less. It's annoying when we get euchred up 9-6 and put our opponents in a close out position but this strategy also prevents seat 1 from ever winning the game in the 2nd round on a 4 point loner.
[/quote]


Using a 3 point lead as my minimum lead to order, simplifies my call. I like simple. I am a simple man. I may pile 3, 4, 5, 6 or more simple thoughts on each other, but the one by one process is still simple. I will order up 9-6 confidently, since I am applying a simple principle that I can afford the cost up by 3 points

Post Reply