Third Seat Call

[RedDuke]

This just happened in a game that I was playing online and I wanted your take on it.

I'm in third seat holding this:



Upcard is the .

Score is 0-0. First and second seat pass. I order the dealer to pick up the ace.

My partner in first seat leads next. It was the . I throw off and the dealer trumps it with the . Things sort of deteriorate from there. Ultimately, I manage to get one trick, my partner takes none, and we get euchred.

Three things to discuss here:

1. Would you have ordered up here? You generally need to have a very strong hand to even consider calling first round from third seat. In this case, I had three of the top five trump and a green ace. That sure seems to fit the bill of a strong hand, although I was ordering up the Ace and I had only one card that could stop the ace.

2. Was there a better way to play this hand? The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that I should have trumped my partner's ace on that first round with the king or the queen. Yes, the dealer would have overtrumped me but it would have required him to break out his big trump to do it and possibly left him in a much more awkward position than him just being able to take it with the nine.

3. Did my partner make a big mistake here? When I saw him lead that next ace, I wanted to punch him. He actually didn't have any trump though so leading an ace isn't really a bad move in that spot. Next is generally a bad suit to lead on the open though since the dealer will usually be void.

What input do you guys have here?

For what it's worth, it's a sure bet that the dealer would have picked up here and made a point if I passed so losing two points by getting euchred wasn't the end of the world. We did actually win the game too 10-8.

[Richardb02]

Let's talk about playing the hand first. OE recommends leading a trump to a Seat 3 call. The reason is, the safe assumption that S3 has 3 or more trump (that very strong hand). But now if I'm in S1 and I don't have any trump, what do I lead? My choices are in priority order, 1, Next to get the lead to S3. 2, a Singleton or Doubleton Green Ace, as the best alternative to win a trick. Or 3, if all I have is junk, I lead my longest suit, hoping Partner, S3, can trump. Can you define other possibilities?

Now we can address your response to P's Ace. You have a strong hand. Playing from strength is the proper strategy. (I have this discussion with myself, frequently. I too, would be enticed to throw off in your situation. I am void, so the odds are greater that S4 has a club. [But note, being Next, the odds are greater that S4 is void!]. I am learning to skip all the analysis and play my strength). The generality is to trump the 1st trick when you order from Seat 3. (Of course, Partner may lead the Right! Euchre is a game of chance. Good things happen as well as bad things).

Now if Partner lead a Green Ace, and you are void, not the situation with this hand, throwing off has a greater probability to be the best play. But trumping the Green Ace is going to have minimal impact on making a point. You may have reduced the possibility of earning 2 points, but a call from S3 is so difficult I suggest focusing on earning 1 point.

I would order this hand. Its not even on the edge for me. I also know that we will have disagreement on ordering. My Quantitative Analysis is:
0.00 Seat 3
0.75 Left
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.75 Singleton Green Ace
0.25 1 Void
0.50 3 Trump
3.25
-.25 Value of A Up Card
3.00 Net Value. order with 2.75 points from Seat 3.
I set my minimum points to order at approximately 65% win/loss. At 3.75 points I expect 95% success. I continuously test my results (but not exhaustively, it's still a fun game of chance and not profit). I would interpolate 72% chance of success with this hand. BTW, that means a 28% chance of being euchred (more than 1 in 4 hands). So I don't beat myself up if I get euchred. I do count cards enough to know that I got beat by card distribution and not by a bad call (but maybe bad play. Calling is more straightforward than playing the cards). If I have less than an 80% chance of success (about 3.25 points when playing from S3, I play for 1 point and do not stretch for 2 points).

Another reason for ordering is that you are weak in Red Suits. Nothing is blocked. The odds of Opponents making a 4 Point Loner are significant. I could have added this advance concept to my quantitative analysis but there is no need to get complicated, when the simpler approach gets the job done. Of course higher level players play higher level competition and need more complicated (higher level) analysis.

[RedDuke]

Another reason for ordering is that you are weak in Red Suits. Nothing is blocked. The odds of Opponents making a 4 Point Loner are significant. I could have added this advance concept to my quantitative analysis but there is no need to get complicated, when the simpler approach gets the job done. Of course higher level players play higher level competition and need more complicated (higher level) analysis.

I had that same thought and this is one of the reasons why I thought that ordering was the correct play. Although, it's not really up to third seat to play defense like that. That should be the job of first seat. But, in games online, most people are overly conservative so you're essentially forced to make defensive calls no matter what seat you're in. For instance, I've actually seen people get angry at their partner in first seat for ordering when they have no trump... it's the definition of a block!

Now we can address your response to P's Ace. You have a strong hand. Playing from strength is the proper strategy. (I have this discussion with myself, frequently. I too, would be enticed to throw off in your situation. I am void, so the odds are greater that S4 has a club. [But note, being Next, the odds are greater that S4 is void!]. I am learning to skip all the analysis and play my strength). The generality is to trump the 1st trick when you order from Seat 3. (Of course, Partner may lead the Right! Euchre is a game of chance. Good things happen as well as bad things).

I'd have to do the math because I'm not so sure that the odds are greater that the dealer is void than that he has a club. If my partner actually led the next ace while he's holding another club then he's an absolute buffoon.

[Richardb02]

I had that same thought and this is one of the reasons why I thought that ordering was the correct play. Although, it's not really up to third seat to play defense like that. That should be the job of first seat.

I am confident that, “it's not really up to third seat to play defense like that,” applies to Round 2, not to Round 1. In Round 1, you have to play your hand and the Up Card. In this Round 1 case, I will loosen up ordering a bit because I am very weak in R2. It is not a Hail Mary Defense (an all out blitz), it is a safety blitz. It’s a little riskier than the norm, but only a Klick or 2 riskier. I need to push the envelope because if I don’t, Opponent will probably call and has a great opportunity for 4 points . I didn’t even quantify this explanation in my 1st post.

I'd have to do the math because I'm not so sure that the odds are greater that the dealer is void than that he has a club. If my partner actually led the next ace while he's holding another club then he's an absolute buffoon.

I apologize, my bad, I was vague. My intention was that the odds that S4, Dealer, was void in clubs, was greater than average, because he turned down a club. Therefore, I would play a klick higher card. I would play the Qs, a klick higher, instead of throwing off, as I would under average scenarios.

But, back to your original post, you thought that S4, Dealer would have ordered and earned a point, is most telling. That says to me, that you ran into card distribution that doomed your order. I’m envisioning 3 trump, including the right! Ordering was the correct call. IMO you had a 28% chance of failure. You walked into card distribution guaranteeing failure. Don’t second guess your order. Keep on ordering in this situation. If you win 72% of the time and lose 28% of the time, your EV is, ignoring Loners, .72x1- .28x2= +0.16. You come out ahead on average, by 1/6th of a point. You feel great 72% of the time. You win more games. The pain, from losing 28% of the time, is worth it!

[RedDuke]

I am confident that, “it's not really up to third seat to play defense like that,” applies to Round 2, not to Round 1. In Round 1, you have to play your hand and the Up Card. In this Round 1 case, I will loosen up ordering a bit because I am very weak in R2. It is not a Hail Mary Defense (an all out blitz), it is a safety blitz. It’s a little riskier than the norm, but only a Klick or 2 riskier. I need to push the envelope because if I don’t, Opponent will probably call and has a great opportunity for 4 points . I didn’t even quantify this explanation in my 1st post.

If my partner is a competent player and he passes in round 1 then you can assume that he has a loner blocked. All blocks should be called from Seat 1. Seat 3 should never call a block, which is what you're saying.

If he passes in round 2 then he should have every possible loner blocked. Once again, it should be seat 1 making defensive calls to stop loners and not seat 3.

With that said, that rule applies to a competent partner. In practice, most people don't have a clue how to block so third seat is forced to call defensive plays like you're suggesting even though they should not be.

I apologize, my bad, I was vague. My intention was that the odds that S4, Dealer, was void in clubs, was greater than average, because he turned down a club. Therefore, I would play a klick higher card. I would play the Qs, a klick higher, instead of throwing off, as I would under average scenarios.

If dealer turned down a club then I would agree with you that he's very likely to be void in it. But dealer didn't turn anything down in this hand. I called Seat 3 Round 1. Dealer didn't have a chance to call or pass anything.

But, back to your original post, you thought that S4, Dealer would have ordered and earned a point, is most telling. That says to me, that you ran into card distribution that doomed your order. I’m envisioning 3 trump, including the right! Ordering was the correct call. IMO you had a 28% chance of failure. You walked into card distribution guaranteeing failure. Don’t second guess your order. Keep on ordering in this situation. If you win 72% of the time and lose 28% of the time, your EV is, ignoring Loners, .72x1- .28x2= +0.16. You come out ahead on average, by 1/6th of a point. You feel great 72% of the time. You win more games. The pain, from losing 28% of the time, is worth it!

You're correct. Dealer did indeed have 3 trump, one of which was the right. I didn't know that at the time that I ordered, naturally. I partly included that statement in my post to point out that getting euchred isn't really as bad as some people make it out to be. I've had partners that have threatened me for getting euchred, for example. In this case, if I would have passed, the dealer would have picked up himself and made a point. So really, my team only lost one point by me calling and getting euchred. That's the case most of the time when you get euchred.

[icanplay]

In the third seat, this is a strong enough hand; biddable. I would bid this every time should the dealer turned up the 9 or 10. I hesitate bidding with dealer turning up the ACE unless I had the right. I would not order the right. It is not likely seat 2 has rt. Rt is probably in dealer or seat 1 hand since seat 2 passed. If dealer turns down ACE there is a solid chance J of spades is in partners hand, and partner would call next which is good cause you have RT w/ off Ace. If dealer has rt and you order ACE you in trouble because he is behind you, plus dealer was going to pick up ACE and is so happy your ordered instead. If dealer turns down ace, your partner seat 1 has first option to call next or call a strong red suite. I understand many will say that sandbagging is not a good long term strategy, but this has worked well for me over time. Works best if dealer is aggressive, and your partner is experienced. Very often I pass and dealer picks it up, and before we play i am glad i did not order. If dealer turns down, partner gets to call... that's okay too. If seat one passes, then I made wrong call. This last scenario rarely happens...

[Wes (aka the legend)]

I'm in third seat holding this:



Upcard is the .

Score is 0-0. First and second seat pass. I order the dealer to pick up the ace.

Three things to discuss here:

1. Would you have ordered up here?

At 0-0 I pass, but I think it's close enough where it's at least debatable. I'm not gonna dig my heals in on a close play without the math backing me and I don't have the math. So if others disagree there's not much more I can add.

However, there are stances I can make that to me are absolutely true:

1) If your partner is a very strong player--the type that will never pass at 0-0, from seat 1, 2nd round if he doesn't have reverse next blocked--then your call isn't just wrong, it's terrible. So keep that in mind if you ever run into that type of partner. Sadly there is a decent chance you'll die before you'll ever play with someone that strong and I'm assuming you're young. So if your partner is an expert never call with this hand at ANY score where you know he is capable of calling next extremely weak.

With an expert partner the debatable scores are what to do at 6-8, 7-8, 8-7, 8-8, 9-8, 9-9. Those are the scores where an expert arguably shouldn't be calling next so loosely (except for 9-9 but that's a different story). That said, to me the only real debatable score is 9-9, at any other score I'm passing becuz I don't have the Right bower. So for example, I'm passing at 8-8 becuz I don't have the right bower NOT becuz I'm scared of that fact, or wish I had it. Not having the right bower significantly increases the odds that the dealer will pick up as all he now needs is the Right to justify a call. If we have the Right bower we block a ton of calling hand combos which should make us more likely to order up. So without the right, I pass happily, hoping the dealer picks up, and then hoping to set him. At 9-9 we gain nothing from setting the dealer. Now it simply comes down to what is the probability that our partner will have a better hand in the 2nd round? I suspect that our best chance is in the first round with the hand we have now.

You generally need to have a very strong hand to even consider calling first round from third seat. In this case, I had three of the top five trump and a green ace. That sure seems to fit the bill of a strong hand, although I was ordering up the Ace and I had only one card that could stop the ace.

I just wanted to point out that I don't consider this a very strong hand, it's marginal. That's how tough the 3rd seat is. And remember the primary reason why we have to play so tight from this spot. It's not just that we have the worst position and we're not guaranteed control on the first lead. Remember the fundamental theorem of poker which absolutely applies to this spot:

"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose. Conversely, every time opponents play their hands differently from the way they would have if they could see all your cards, you gain; and every time they play their hands the same way they would have played if they could see all your cards, you lose."

--David Sklansky

Every time you order from 3rd and the dealer would've picked up had you passed you cost your team. Every time you order from 3rd and your partner had a 2nd round call that would've scored at least a point you cost your team. And things get really costly when your partner is sitting on a 2nd round loner. Now ordering up from 3rd has the chance of creating the always devastating negative six point swing.

So what do I consider a strong hand in this spot?

1) JJx in trump
2) 4 trump
3) Right + 2 + an off ace
4) Left + 2 + 2 off aces

The marginal holdings are:

5) Right + 2 and nothing else
6) Left + 2 + an off ace
7) Right + Left + an off ace
8) 3 non-bower trump + 2 off aces

And keep in mind just becuz I consider 1-4 strong hands doesn't necessarily mean I'm calling. For example, say Tbolt65 is my partner who is the strongest player I have ever played with, a true expert imo.

Score is 0-0 and I'm in the 3rd seat. Upcard is the

I have

I'm not calling. Basically if I don't have a loner I'm not calling if I have 2 tricks or more in next. Optimal 3rd seat play changes rather dramatically when your partner is an expert. Right off the bat you'll be passing on most "Right + 2 + an off ace" and "Left + 2 + 2 off aces" hands unless you're going alone.

2. Was there a better way to play this hand?

Assuming my partner is your average amateur player I still pass here, but like I said it's close/marginal. Too many good things can happen if we pass, and I think those good events outweigh the bad events. Without the math it will remain debatable.

However there's a time you must call this and it's NOT debatable. If your amateur partner will pass at up 9-X where X = 7 or below without having all suits blocked then you MUST order this holding in the first to make sure the 2 seat never gets a chance to win the game.

But isn't this always a risk? Doesn't this justify calling this hand just to make sure 2 seat never gets a red loner? The answer is no. It's not that simple. You can't just overlook the other positive factors of passing: getting to set the dealer or not blocking your partner's 2nd round loner or not going set those times the dealer would've picked up had you passed or not taking an unnecessary risk those times your partner had a 1 point call in the 2nd round. It is only when your team is up 9-7 to 9-0 that preventing the one negative event--a 2 seat 2nd round loner--takes the front seat and becomes top priority.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that I should have trumped my partner's ace on that first round with the king or the queen. Yes, the dealer would have overtrumped me but it would have required him to break out his big trump to do it and possibly left him in a much more awkward position than him just being able to take it with the nine.

No. Just no. When your partner leads an Ace--which presumably means they have no trump--your team is now fighting for survival to scratch a point. The last thing in the world you wanna do is burn a trump on the first lead. Throw off your garbage card and let the dealer have a shot at trumping your P's ace, at least when he does that the lead is now in the right spot for your team.

3. Did my partner make a big mistake here? When I saw him lead that next ace, I wanted to punch him. He actually didn't have any trump though so leading an ace isn't really a bad move in that spot. Next is generally a bad suit to lead on the open though since the dealer will usually be void.

Your partner played the hand perfectly. It is absolutely critical that he leads an ace if he has one no matter how dirty that ace is. From his perspective, when you order and he has no trump he immediately knows your team has a marginal hand that is fighting for a point. The worst case nightmare for your team is

1) The 2 seat winning the first trick thus putting you, the maker, in a squeeze.

2) You getting overtrumped on the first lead which could easily be the end of the story right there.

Leading an off ace is the best way to avoid those two nightmares. I don't care how dirty that ace is, the real goal here is to give your partner the opportunity to throw off a loser and let the dealer trump in thus forcing the enemy to burn one trump and crucially, getting the lead in the right spot. That's essentially Seat 1's job now, do whatever he can to get the lead in the right spot. If the ace walks then that's just a bonus. Also sometimes leading a dirty ace has an added benefit. Seat 2 can trump and and get overtrumped by the maker thus causing Seat 2 to waste a trump for nothing.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

I'd have to do the math because I'm not so sure that the odds are greater that the dealer is void than that he has a club. If my partner actually led the next ace while he's holding another club then he's an absolute buffoon.

If that's his only ace than he made the right play.

[RedDuke]

Leading an off ace is the best way to avoid those two nightmares. I don't care how dirty that ace is, the real goal here is to give your partner the opportunity to throw off a loser and let the dealer trump in thus forcing the enemy to burn one trump and crucially, getting the lead in the right spot. That's essentially Seat 1's job now, do whatever he can to get the lead in the right spot. If the ace walks then that's just a bonus. Also sometimes leading a dirty ace has an added benefit. Seat 2 can trump and and get overtrumped by the maker thus causing Seat 2 to waste a trump for nothing.

If second seat would have trumped the ace, would you have overtrumped it? If so, would you have done it with the left since we already know that the dealer can overtrump either the king or the queen?

[Wes (aka the legend)]

If second seat would have trumped the ace, would you have overtrumped it? If so, would you have done it with the left since we already know that the dealer can overtrump either the king or the queen?

I wouldn't trump with the Left. I'd gamble and trump with the king or queen. Given that seat 2 and you are void in clubs there's a decent chance the dealer could have one. Plus by not over-trumping with the Left you still preserve your team's small chance at netting 2 points. Yes it's a very small chance indeed since we need the Right to be in the kitty amongst other things but every percentage counts and we might as well preserve that tiny probability when it isn't clear that over-trumping with the Left or not materially affects our chances of scoring 1 pt.

Plus it's worth noting if the dealer has the Right it doesn't matter which line we take.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

I'm in third seat holding this:



Upcard is the .

Score is 0-0. First and second seat pass. I order the dealer to pick up the ace.

Three things to discuss here:

1. Would you have ordered up here?

At 0-0 I pass, but I think it's close enough where it's at least debatable. I'm not gonna dig my heals in on a close play without the math backing me and I don't have the math. So if others disagree there's not much more I can add.

Assuming my partner is your average amateur player I still pass here, but like I said it's close/marginal. Too many good things can happen if we pass, and I think those good events outweigh the bad events. Without the math it will remain debatable.

I've been thinking about this spot a lot since I made this post. And I just wanted to drive home a key point: Assuming your partner is an amateur, I really don't know what's best here at a neutral score (Like I said before if we're up 9-X where X = 7 or below then it's a must call). I know I said that "I think the good events outweigh the bad events" with regard to passing with an amateur but who really knows. I actually regret saying that. All I can really be is agnostic on that point. It's a marginal spot, there's pluses and minuses to both passing and calling. Without the math it's impossible to know which strategy prevails. It could very easily be the case that calling here with an amateur partner and passing here with an expert partner is the correct way to approach this spot.

The main reason we call on the marginal side with an amateur partner is to prevent 2 seat 2nd round loners. IOW:

Although, it's not really up to third seat to play defense like that. That should be the job of first seat. But, in games online, most people are overly conservative so you're essentially forced to make defensive calls no matter what seat you're in.

The main question is: is preventing 2 seat 2nd round loners worth the trouble. Is it worth the strategic value we give up from passing. When we pass, we may get a chance to set the dealer, we save our team a point those times our call would've went set, and we never block our partner's 2nd round loners/2 pt calls. IDK, all I can say is it is certainly defensible to justify this call on defensive grounds with an amateur partner. I strongly sympathize with that argument, but we'll just never know. So I don't think RedDuke was wrong for calling and I like his defensive thought process for doing so. My only real quibble with RedDuke's post was when he said this was a very strong hand. That I would disagree with as I think it's actually a marginal hand.

Also, as I said before, with an expert partner the answer to this riddle is crystal clear. Calling here would be terrible, becuz with an expert partner you get the best of both worlds by passing this hand. Don't call and screw that up.

[jblowery]

In the third seat, this is a strong enough hand; biddable. I would bid this every time should the dealer turned up the 9 or 10. I hesitate bidding with dealer turning up the ACE unless I had the right. I would not order the right. It is not likely seat 2 has rt. Rt is probably in dealer or seat 1 hand since seat 2 passed. If dealer turns down ACE there is a solid chance J of spades is in partners hand, and partner would call next which is good cause you have RT w/ off Ace. If dealer has rt and you order ACE you in trouble because he is behind you, plus dealer was going to pick up ACE and is so happy your ordered instead. If dealer turns down ace, your partner seat 1 has first option to call next or call a strong red suite. I understand many will say that sandbagging is not a good long term strategy, but this has worked well for me over time. Works best if dealer is aggressive, and your partner is experienced. Very often I pass and dealer picks it up, and before we play i am glad i did not order. If dealer turns down, partner gets to call... that's okay too. If seat one passes, then I made wrong call. This last scenario rarely happens...

So how about this. is the up card and you're in 3rd seat. THis just happened to me today. I ordered and got it but barely.

You have:

[Wes (aka the legend)]

So how about this. is the up card and you're in 3rd seat. THis just happened to me today. I ordered and got it but barely.

You have:

If you're down a lot or down 9-6/9-7, I would go alone. At neutral scores, I pass if seat 1 is an expert and call if seat one is your typical player. If seat 1 is a terrible player you should go alone at every score except when your team has 8 or 9. When you have a really bad partner tend to "go for it" more often. Reach for big plays (reasonably so), and try to win the game in as few hands as possible.

[Mxx]

Good discussion of this topic. I am in the pass camp because it's likely either the dealer has the right, or my partner calls next. Both are decent outcomes.

The only thing I would throw out there is on this point:

The main reason we call on the marginal side with an amateur partner is to prevent 2 seat 2nd round loners. IOW:
RedDuke wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:52 pm
Although, it's not really up to third seat to play defense like that. That should be the job of first seat. But, in games online, most people are overly conservative so you're essentially forced to make defensive calls no matter what seat you're in.
The main question is: is preventing 2 seat 2nd round loners worth the trouble.

With more amateur players, the risk of a second seat second round loner is much less. I think the net points lost ordering from third seat exceed the net points lost from calls in second seat second round, in this scenario.

Also in this scenario of marginal hand passing in third seat against amateur players: I can't prove this but I see a higher than usual number of successful reverse next calls from my partner in first seat second round.

[RedDuke]

Good discussion of this topic. I am in the pass camp because it's likely either the dealer has the right, or my partner calls next. Both are decent outcomes.

How is this a decent outcome if the dealer has the right? The dealer will definitely pick up here if he has the right. It might be possible to euchre him depending on what else he has and what your partner has but otherwise you'd be settling with them getting one point. Granted, them getting one point and giving your side the deal isn't the end of the world here.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

How is this a decent outcome if the dealer has the right? The dealer will definitely pick up here if he has the right. It might be possible to euchre him depending on what else he has and what your partner has but otherwise you'd be settling with them getting one point. Granted, them getting one point and giving your side the deal isn't the end of the world here.

If the dealer has we should feel very happy that we passed. Now we get the best of both worlds. Our pass saves our team a point those times the dealer's team has a strong enough hand to get 3 tricks--which will be quite often when the dealer has AdJd--and when that's not the case our pass puts our team in position to set the dealer's team which again nets our team an extra point vs calling. So I would say it's not a decent outcome if the dealer has the right. It's an awesome outcome.

Also, a minor quibble. I strongly disagree with the idea that "the dealer will definitely pick up here if he has the right." In my experience, most euchre players are passing as the dealer if they have AdJd and nothing else (which is a decent probability given our holding), and I've seen people pass AdJd + an off Ace a lot too, not most of the time, but often enough where it no longer surprises me. Never assume people play well. In fact it's probably best to assume the opposite until they prove otherwise. Humans are risk averse creatures. Most people play this game the same way. They try not to get euchred and otherwise hope to get lucky, hoping to get enough good cards to win the game. If they don't get the cards they predictably pass to a loss and complain about how bad their luck is.

[Mxx]

How is this a decent outcome if the dealer has the right? The dealer will definitely pick up here if he has the right. It might be possible to euchre him depending on what else he has and what your partner has but otherwise you'd be settling with them getting one point. Granted, them getting one point and giving your side the deal isn't the end of the world here.

I think a euchre is a reasonable chance if the dealer picks up. Keep ruffing and go for the end play and hope your partner mops up the stray side ace from seat 2 with their void.

If not, I avoided a dodgy situation and the opposition got 1 from their deal.