Would You Call Here?

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RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Would You Call Here?

Post by RedDuke » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:41 pm

This just came up in a game I just played.

The scenario - your side is down 9-8. You're in second seat holding this:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-D)

Upcard is (Card_J-S) .

First seat passes. Do you order your partner up or pass?

This is certainly an interesting scenario. You have two trump cards but no real power. You would have the knowledge that your partner is holding a sure trick with the right, though. Especially with you being in second seat (so not having that crucial last play), there's no real guarantee that anything you're holding here is going to be able to take a trick. With that said though, this hand is probably good enough to get at least one trick between that ace and the two trumps.

You also have nowhere to go if the dealer passes. With the score at 9-8, if dealer passes and first seat calls next, it's pretty much game over. If your partner is loaded to the teeth on red cards, then there's a decent chance that you're going to get euchred by ordering him up, which will also end the game in a loss for your side. So, what would you do here?

Spoiler
Here's how it actually played out in the game that I was in. I was the dealer here (so you'd be my partner deciding what to do here). I was actually holding this:

(Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_9-D)

My partner chose to take the chance at the play here and did order me to pick up the right. I threw away the nine of diamonds. We ended up making march and won the game 10-9. However, in this particular scenario, I would have chosen to pick up the right if my partner passed and would have been seriously considering going alone. He naturally had no way to know that I had such a strong position in spades when he ordered.

If my hand would have been something like this instead:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

ordering me up could have very easily lost us the game.

So, what would you have done here?



Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:23 am

I would order up. It's an easy decision using Quantitative Analysis:
0.50 Value of Seat 2
0.50 K Trump
0.50 Q Trump
0.50 Green Ax
0.25 1 Void
2.25 Hand value vs. 2.00 Order
0.75 Value of Partner's Right (1.00) less Minimum (0.25)
3.00 Hand + Up card value (Very important if you have 8 or 9 points)
0.50 Loosen up when you have 8 or 9 points
3.50 Total situational value vs 2.00 for order up. Easy decision to call.

I have not looked at your spoiler alert.
I look at this hand very differently based on different scores.
2.25 vs. 2.00 is very close so further analysis is needed, I may pass
But we have 8 points and even more importantly Opponents have 9- I have to loosen my orders, so order
3.00 applies since we are compelled to order. I am placing a value on Partner's Up card
3.00 vs 2.00 lets me guesstimate an 85% chance of success. I'm confident, but prepared if I lose.
3.50 adds the situational influence and translates, "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"

Lower scores. Less than 8 points Us or Opponents:
I would pass at any score if Partner orders Loners loosely
I would pass if we are down 3 or more points, hoping for a 4 point Loner

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:53 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:41 pm
This just came up in a game I just played.

The scenario - your side is down 9-8. You're in second seat holding this:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-D)

Upcard is (Card_J-S) .

First seat passes. Do you order your partner up or pass?
This is a must call. Your opponents are on 9, if you pass and your partner passes it's probably game over, but that's not really why you're calling here. The key is your team is on 8 points so you no longer have to worry about blocking your P's loner. Theoretically you should loosen up your range from the 2 spot when you no longer have to be concerned with blocking your P's loner. Spades is clearly the best suit for your team, so you gotta call here. You may even score a point EVEN IF the Right bower is all your partner has. Imagine Seat 1 leads the Ac, you trump in and then send trump, and then your Ah walks later. That's all it would take.

That said, change the score to your team being down 9-7 and now this is a MUST pass. In this case blocking your partner's loner would be an utter disaster.

icanplay
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:05 pm

Post by icanplay » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:38 pm

You have to order your partner the right.... it is the law. You have a solid chance to get two tricks and your partner cant get less than one trick....

RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:11 pm

icanplay wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:38 pm
You have to order your partner the right.... it is the law. You have a solid chance to get two tricks and your partner cant get less than one trick....
Your partner is guaranteed to get one but if the right is played against one of your trump then it will take your trump. So if the right is all your partner has, you could actually get in trouble with this call since the opponents have a good chance to have more trump than you, including both the left and the ace. Although, like others have pointed out, there really wasn't a better call here and given the score it was worth a shot.

As for always ordering your partner the right, in most cases you actually don't want to. This is because if the right is showing, the dealer has a decent chance to make a loner if they pick up. By ordering your partner up, you risk losing your team the points from that loner. The usual rule is that you should always pass if you are in second seat and the right is showing unless you have three trump in your hand. After all, if you have three trump, it's pretty unlikely that your partner has three. Basically, you should pass and let your partner decide if he needs your help to make a point or not. A good player will pretty much never pass if he has the right showing and another trump in his hand so you really shouldn't worry about the dealer passing (unless he literally has nothing in that suit). You also don't need to worry about third seat ordering your partner to pick up the right either. Anyone that does that from third seat is going to have a good enough hand to euchre you if you ordered up but they can only get at most one point if they order up.

Thus, the normal rule is don't order your partner to pick up the right unless you have three trump in which case you might even be best off naming trump and going alone yourself. Of course, in this particular scenario, even if I did have the cards to go alone (which I did), my partner didn't rob me of a loner because we only needed 2 points.

Tbolt65
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:50 pm

I concur. At 8-9, the original holding is a must order.

Tbolt65
Edward

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