Seat 2 Left + K

Ask questions, discuss and debate your strategies, euchre polls and more
Post Reply
Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Seat 2 Left + K

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:49 pm

It's deja vue all over again! I've dealt with this hand 3 times in the past 2 weeks!!
Round 1 Seat 2 Score 8-4 (Card_A-C) up
My Seat 2 hand:
(Card_K-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-D)
Would you Pass or Order up?
If you had less than 8 points, would you "bid" differently?
I'll recap the results if I get 4 responses.



RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:55 am

First off, you have one guaranteed trick here with that guarded left. You have pretty much nothing in any other suit. That ace of trump is also probably going to end up being good for a trick if your partner has another trump.

This one may depend somewhat on your read of your partner's bidding style. If he's got the right, how aggressive is he going to be about bidding? One reason to keep this in mind is that a very aggressive partner might try this as a loner if he's got the right. With the left and king out of play, he's got a decent shot if he's also got an offsuit ace (there is a decent chance of this considering that you don't have any aces). If this is your partner - for instance, if you were playing with Wes, me, or a few of the others here - you'd want to pass here. Honestly, this is the only scenario where I would pass here.

Our general rule here is that the dealer should always order up if he's got right+1. Some very timid players may not do this though if he's only got the right and no other trump. If your partner is someone like this, then you should do the bidding for him and order up with this setup.

Honestly, unless your partner has a total trash hand in black, this really won't be euchred that often with you having left+king and your partner having the ace plus probably at least one other trump (it's pretty rare for dealer to have only one trump if he gets ordered up first round plus he'll always have a void and last play first round). So the odds are probably in your favor for your side to make a point here.

I'd definitely order this if my side has 9 points. I'd also probably order at 8. At less than 8 points, it depends on my partner. If I've got a very aggressive partner that likes to make a lot of hail mary loner attempts and will generally not pass if he has anything at all in his hand, I'll pass this to give him a chance at the lone. If I've got pretty much any ordinary person as my partner, I'm going to call here.

icanplay
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:05 pm

Post by icanplay » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 pm

I would order this with the score 8-4 and my position in seat 2. I get a little more aggressive up this many points. Why give the other team more chances to call a loaner should my partner pass. A set is not ever good, but I find it worth the risk here. If I had left protected and could stop a green loaner I would probably pass especially if I know my partner is not afraid to make trump. If I knew my partner (the dealer) was ultra aggressive, I might consider passing, but with having 8 points I am not as concerned about ruining his loaner. If the score was really close, example 8-8 I might consider passing here, however passing also has its risks...

RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:21 pm

icanplay wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 pm
I would order this with the score 8-4 and my position in seat 2. I get a little more aggressive up this many points. Why give the other team more chances to call a loaner should my partner pass. A set is not ever good, but I find it worth the risk here. If I had left protected and could stop a green loaner I would probably pass especially if I know my partner is not afraid to make trump. If I knew my partner (the dealer) was ultra aggressive, I might consider passing, but with having 8 points I am not as concerned about ruining his loaner. If the score was really close, example 8-8 I might consider passing here, however passing also has its risks...
What would you do if you had an aggressive partner (like Wes) and you're down 8-4? That's the only time I can really think of a hand like this being a pass.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:55 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:49 pm
It's deja vue all over again! I've dealt with this hand 3 times in the past 2 weeks!!
Round 1 Seat 2 Score 8-4 (Card_A-C) up
My Seat 2 hand:
(Card_K-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-D)
Would you Pass or Order up?
If you had less than 8 points, would you "bid" differently?
I'll recap the results if I get 4 responses.
This situation is very analogous to this question from my quiz:
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:29 am
12) Your team is up 8-1. You're in the 2 seat. The dealer's upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_K-C), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: Call Hearts. Whenever your team reaches 8 or 9 points and you have a big lead you need to loosen up your calls from the 2 seat, first round when you block very little. This is becuz 1) you no longer have to worry about blocking your partner's loner and 2) the last thing you want to do here is give up a seat 1, 2nd round loner. So hands that are normally not quite good enough to call, like 2 low trump + an off ace. now become a must call when you block no suits up 8-1. Don't fall in the autopilot trap of just playing your cards. Always play the situation, always think ahead. Always play sound defense.
Your situation is very similar. Your team is at 8 points so you don't have to worry about blocking your partner's loner, you have a nice lead up 8-4, your hand, Left + 1 and nothing else, is not quite good enough to call, you have no where to go in the 2nd round and you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits should your partner pass. All the prerequisites for making this thin call line up here which is why this is a MUST call imo, what I would call a "protection" call, becuz virtually nothing good can happen if this hand gets to the 2nd round.

Call thin in the first round and hope for the best. Even if your partner is an expert your thin call can still hit that part of his passing range that still nets your team a point with a little luck, and if your partner had a hand that he would've called anyways then your call has no consequence. And those times your team gets euchred? Worth it! The risks your team takes on if this hand gets to the 2nd round outweigh the risks of getting euchred calling a bit light. It's imperative to have this type of call in your arsenal to protect your team when you have a nice lead.

To drive home this point, I'll post another example hand I played recently that is a bit more extreme/controversial but I'll stand by it nonetheless.

My team is up 8-1, and I am in the 2 seat. My partner is a very strong player, and seat 1 is a very strong player.

The upcard was the (Card_A-C)

The action is on me with (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-H)

I ordered up the dealer. This hand is far from being "not quite good enough to call", but it was the best I've got and I don't have to worry about blocking my partner's loner at 8, and with such a nice lead and a near dead hand in the 2nd round I figured it was worth a shot but most importantly I wanted to make sure that seat 1 never gets a chance to be a hero.

The actual results we're uneventful but positive.

I got no tricks but my partner had (Card_A-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) and two garbage cards so we scored a point.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:11 am

RedDuke wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:55 am
I'd definitely order this if my side has 9 points. I'd also probably order at 8. At less than 8 points, it depends on my partner. If I've got a very aggressive partner that likes to make a lot of hail mary loner attempts and will generally not pass if he has anything at all in his hand, I'll pass this to give him a chance at the lone. If I've got pretty much any ordinary person as my partner, I'm going to call here.
Yeah, that is the question. What do we do in this spot at a neutral score? I agree with you that if our partner is "any ordinary person" it's a call given that most people pass too much and don't go alone enough. If our partner is a very strong player then we should back off in scenarios where blocking a loner can hurt us. And at 9-9 we obviously call regardless of the nature of our partner since this is clearly the best we got. What about at scores like up 9-8, tied 8-8, up 8-7. Those are the scores where it feels like we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:19 am

RedDuke wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:21 pm
What would you do if you had an aggressive partner (like Wes) and you're down 8-4? That's the only time I can really think of a hand like this being a pass.
Down 8-4, ordering me up would be a large mistake.

In this spot, if I have a hand like (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H)

I'm going alone.

But what about if we're down 8-4 and we have the typical run of the mill partner? I think it's still a pass. I mean we're kinda desperate here. We need close to a miracle to win this game. Might as well pass and hope our partner actually has it. Getting a loner somewhere is probably our best shot to win this game, ordering super-thin from the 2 spot is now probably counterproductive.

Post Reply