how best play a weak 3 trump hand and no good side cards

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saltman
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Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:58 pm

how best play a weak 3 trump hand and no good side cards

Post by saltman » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:23 pm

Hello
I have had a few hands as such lately like this (hearts turned as trump-don't remember which but not the right. The game was progressive.
I had Jd, Qd, 9d, 10c, 9s I was in first seat and passed. The deal came back to me and I called diamonds hoping my partner could help pick up something in a weaker suite. My question what is the best lead with this type of hand? I figured I should call next but not sure how best to play. I lead one of the off-suits but my partner had weak holdings and couldn't help. I got euchred. The second seat had a lot of the power cards. I also had another similar hand and called; got euchred on that one to, but that one did stop a lone call from 2nd seat. Thanks for any insight to this kind of hand.



Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:08 pm

saltman wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:23 pm
Hello
I have had a few hands as such lately like this (hearts turned as trump-don't remember which but not the right. The game was progressive.
I had Jd, Qd, 9d, 10c, 9s I was in first seat and passed. The deal came back to me and I called diamonds hoping my partner could help pick up something in a weaker suite. My question what is the best lead with this type of hand? I figured I should call next but not sure how best to play. I lead one of the off-suits but my partner had weak holdings and couldn't help. I got euchred. The second seat had a lot of the power cards. I also had another similar hand and called; got euchred on that one to, but that one did stop a lone call from 2nd seat. Thanks for any insight to this kind of hand.
When you call with 3 trump and either have the lead or get the lead with 3 trump, always lead trump. Easy way to remember this rule: Always lead with three. There are some exceptions to this rule but 95% of the time it will be correct. Whenever you have three trump that obviously means there are 4 left. This means that a trump lead by you can very easily clean your opponents out of trump straight away which would be huge for your team. If you don't lead trump, now you run the risk of your opponents being able to pick your team off 1 trump at a time if they're void in certain suits. Dont' let this happen. Lead trump and take out two of your enemy's trump at once. Leading trump also protects your partner's off Aces if he has any. BTW Your partner is statistically more likely to have some off aces since your opponents passing in the first round does marginally correlate with having fewer offsuit aces.

So lead trump, and lead the Right.

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:40 pm

Lead rt on a next call? You sure?

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:00 am

jblowery wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:40 pm
Lead rt on a next call? You sure?
Without an off ace to fall back on, leading a low trump is out of the question for me with this hand formulation (Right + 2). Lead the Right, clear out some trump in hopes your partner has an off ace or two. There are spots to strongly consider leading low trump instead of the Right. I believe this is not one of those spots. Am I sure? I can never be sure without simulating this spot, but I would bet that leading the right would be most successful here. The cool thing is we all have euchre apps where we can play thousands of hands--even thousands of games rather quickly--you can try out leading low in this spot for a decent sample and see how it works out. Not exactly the best approach to getting at the truth of the matter becuz the human brain can easily trick itself into thinking an incorrect strategy is correct but still something.

Give me this holding and I would lead low instead:

(Card_J-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-S)

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:46 am

Isn't there a good chance your partner has the left when you call next? That was why I questioned leading the right.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:38 pm

jblowery wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:46 am
Isn't there a good chance your partner has the left when you call next? That was why I questioned leading the right.
The odds are that the opponents don't have the bowers in that color. So yes, the person most likely to have the left is your partner, unless the card is in the kitty. It does somewhat depend on your opponents though... I've been seeing my opponents holding the left fairly often on a next call during the past dozen or so games that I've played.

I have to agree with Wes on this scenario though. The best move here is leading the right. You want to clear your opponents out of trump. Since you have 3, there's at most 4 among the other three players. Leading the right has a decent chance to get rid of three of them. If any player has two, it's most likely your partner. Yes, there's a chance that you'll strip your partner of his only trump with this lead, in which case you'll have to hope that your partner has a hand full of aces. If you're in a scenario where your opponents actually passed with the other red bower and a hand full of aces then you're probably SOL no matter what you do...

jblowery
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Post by jblowery » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:15 am

If I'm calling next, I've typically led with one of my weak off-suite cards. I'm going to need help from my partner anyway and even if he doesn't come through, I may be setting up an end-play. 2/3 chance that this goes well for me. The only way it doesn't is if the dealer takes the 1st trick. If I lead with the right, my opponents could have left-protected and now they have the power trump card. I could also suck up my partner's left bower.

I've typically led with the right if I'm calling on reverse next but an off-suite if calling next. It seemed like they were both decent leads but the likelihood of my partner having the naked left tipped the scales for me when calling next.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:41 pm

Again, the crux of this hand comes down the fact that we have 3 trump. This means there are only 4 left. This further means that a trump lead by us has a decent chance of clearing all trump out of our enemy's hands. This means that leading the Right has a decent chance of securing our team a point right away which is absolutely critical when we have a hand like Right + 2 and nothing else.

Also, If one is going to need help from their partner, the most likely way they will help will be when they have 2 trump or an off ace or two. In either case, leading the Right helps your partner help you.

There's no need to alter our strategy in worry over those times our partner has the lone left. This subset will be much smaller than the subset where: [Our P doesn't have the Left + Those times our P has a guarded left + Those times our P has the lone Left but leading the Right clears out our opponents' trump anyways]

Leading the Right here gives our team a chance to secure a point right away and it protects our partner's off aces. This is an advantage we cannot pass up with the lead and this specific holding.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

saltman
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Post by saltman » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:42 pm

Thank you for replying and sure appreciate the tips. I enjoy reading the posts and trying to learn advance strategies that are not mentioned in the euchre books I have learned to play by (as well as the articles from this site - very valuable).

scottm117
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Post by scottm117 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:09 am

With this particular hand, I lead the right bower first trick, then either of the offsuits on second lead, most often Tc. Generally if your partner has trump cards, you will win at least a point. If your partner has Aces, you will also likely win at least a point. If you get euchred, it's simply card distribution. But a right bower lead gives you the best chance at not being euchred.

icanplay
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Post by icanplay » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:24 pm

I lead right with the hand. I would then lead off suite and hope for the partner to take it. If my partner was not able to play trump on my right I would lead the suite (club or spade) he or she discarded. If your partner cant take down one of the five tricks, your team is in jeopardy of getting set. It does happen, but next is a must call here, and the right is the best lead here. You have a very strong chance at two tricks, and you want to count your partner as one.

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