Leading away from the right

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Tbolt65
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Leading away from the right

Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:03 pm

A strategy I personally like doing. Under leading the right.

I use this as what ohioeuchre.com calls an "end game" set-up. To basically to protect yourself from going set from jumping the fence or calling next.

For example having jh, 10h, 9h , Ac, 9s with let's say cubs turned down. Coming out with the 9h lead. Now at this point I'm not going into score or what was turned down but just a hand set up.

Now with what I said before in protecting myself it also give your partner a chance to cash his bare ace or left. Instead of taking it on opening lead with the right. Also naturally it sucks Trump out of the opponents and makes yours and your partners aces good.

That hand is of one instance. Another is that of Jh,9h, AC,AS,9S. As with same set up as last hand. Lead 9h. This is just a little stronger hand to do so since you have both aces.

As soon as you get the lead back in any scenario it's basically a lock for you to take point. If your partner helps out at all with an ace of Trump or the left. You could be set up for taking 2pts.

This can be applied in any seat or position. It however doesn't happen very frequently. It is however a nice tool in needed/warranted situations.

Tbolt65
Edward



RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm

Let me see if I understand you right. You're saying basically to lead a low trump instead of the right with the goal of being to pull the trumps out of the opponents' hands instead of using the right to do it.

It's how you talk about end play. End play would mean that you're hoping that the player to your left takes the trick, thus giving you the final play on the next trick. Given what's in your hand and the fact that you know that there might only be one trump left in the wild after this, you have a good chance to take two or even three tricks. I'm with you so far.

Why then talk about your partner taking the trick if you're trying to do an end play? Are you basically saying that scenario is a pleasant surprise since then you are highly likely to get at least one point from the hand? You're right, just want to make sure I'm following you right.

I actually like to do this myself, especially if I'm sitting with a weak trump position. Say something like this:

(Card_J-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-H)

with diamonds trump.

In this case, I'd lead the nine of diamonds with the goal of pulling out most of the remaining trump so that I have a better chance of making those aces good.

The reason not to do it with the right is because of the off chance that your partner might only have the left. If you lead the right then the only trump that your side has is the 9 of diamonds while the opposition has more trump. So your odds of overtrumping is reduced. Whereas if you let your partner make his left good then you've got two tricks right there and you just have to get one ace through instead of both of them.

Contrast that to this hand:

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-C)

Let's say that you aren't in a position where you really need the points since I'd be going alone with this hand if we're down 8-3 or something like that. My point here is to more illustrate that in this example, your side is obviously strong in trump.

I'm going to lead the right here. Now the problems that arise by potentially stripping your partner of his only trump are less material because you still have enough trump to most likely control the balance of the hand.

Tbolt65
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Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:59 pm

Well the idea is to get the lead to your opponent and pull trump. If your partner takes it, well that's even better.

It looks like your following me right with your illustration of your first hand set up.

On your contrast I'm playing for two and hope my partner takes my off suit or possibly me throwing that 9c off on one of his trick. Not too often you'll get that hail Mary through.

TBOLT65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:06 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm
Let me see if I understand you right. You're saying basically to lead a low trump instead of the right with the goal of being to pull the trumps out of the opponents' hands instead of using the right to do it.
Well the real idea is setting your team up to pull out trump twice! So you pull out trump once by leading low, then you when you get the lead back either by trumping in or with your off ace, now you can pull out trump again with the Right. This is an excellent strategy if you're trying to maximize your team's chances of not getting euchred and you're just trying to score a point. Think 9-9 scenarios.

E.G. It's 9-9, the dealer upcard is the (Card_K-S)

You're in the 1 seat with (Card_J-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-H)

You call spades.

Leading the Right bower here would be a clear mistake. Lead low to set up a double trump lead. That line will minimize your team's chance of getting euchred and thus maximize your team's chance to win this game.
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm
It's how you talk about end play. End play would mean that you're hoping that the player to your left takes the trick, thus giving you the final play on the next trick. Given what's in your hand and the fact that you know that there might only be one trump left in the wild after this, you have a good chance to take two or even three tricks. I'm with you so far.
Yeah end play might not be the best wordage altho it makes sense in my mind. The "end play" we're trying to set up here is that crucial 2nd trump lead once you get the lead back that virtually locks your team in for a point.
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm
Why then talk about your partner taking the trick if you're trying to do an end play? Are you basically saying that scenario is a pleasant surprise since then you are highly likely to get at least one point from the hand? You're right, just want to make sure I'm following you right.
Yep it's a nice surprise if your partner takes a trick. A bonus so to speak, and if your partner has the Left (or he has the Ace in trump and the left is buried your team now may get 2 points).
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm
I actually like to do this myself, especially if I'm sitting with a weak trump position. Say something like this:

(Card_J-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-H)

with diamonds trump.

In this case, I'd lead the nine of diamonds with the goal of pulling out most of the remaining trump so that I have a better chance of making those aces good.
That's a great example. Any time you have Right + 1 low trump and two off aces you have a strong candidate to run this play. Although if you're in the 1 seat, 2nd rd and the dealer turned down a heart, I'm going alone in diamonds here at most scores. I realize it's a weak loner that can easily get euchred and I wouldn't be surprised if a euchre simulation showed that play to be incorrect, but no gamble no future! But once again, if the score is 9-9, leading low to set up a double trump lead to lock your team in the winner's circle is the correct play.

Also whenever you have a big lead in your game, leading low to minimize going set becomes really appealing. Like say you're up 7-0. With a hand like this:

Dealer turns down a (Card_9-S)

You have (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-H)

Taking the line that minimizes getting euchred is probably best. And it's not a complete sacrifice anyways. Sometimes your team will still get 2 points.

In fact my hypothesis with that hand is it may be best to lead the (Card_10-C) no matter what the score.
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm
The reason not to do it with the right is because of the off chance that your partner might only have the left. If you lead the right then the only trump that your side has is the 9 of diamonds while the opposition has more trump. So your odds of overtrumping is reduced. Whereas if you let your partner make his left good then you've got two tricks right there and you just have to get one ace through instead of both of them.
Not taking out your partner's Left is a big reason behind this play, especially when you call next. Here's a quote from this site about leading low on Next calls:
The best first lead on a next call is a small trump; this is especially true if you hold an off-suit Ace. By leading a small trump, you stand the best chance of hitting your partner's hand. Remember, the odds are your partner will have at least one bower in his hand. This lead is the best chance you have of going straight to him. This will give him the opportunity to play any aces he may have. In addition, with one round of trump gone, those aces have a much better chance of surviving.

Leading the right may not be the best move. Your partner could only have one bower in his hand and you don't want them to clash. When you are holding a right/ ace combination it's usually best to lead the ace. If the other bower has been turned down, then it is ok to lead the right.
I actually hate their example. If you have Right-Ace in trump you don't have to worry about taking out your partners left, therefore lead the right in that situation. Either way, the idea still holds merit.

Here's a quote from Natty Bumppo on leading low on Next calls:
So, you have called “next”: What do you lead?

Lead trump (if you have any!). The assumption is not only that your partner has the missing bower but also that your opponents have jacks in the “green” suits, not aces. Therefore you have the aces off suit (and you know it if you have one or both of them yourself), and you want to get the trump out to make them good.

And if you have the right or left bower when you call “next,” lead it, right?

Wrong. Lead low trump. You are counting on your partner for a bower, and with good reason; but you are not counting on him for length in trump, or even to have a guard for his bower. Leading your bower is a good way to cause both your own team’s bowers to fall on one trick. Lead a bower only if you have the ace of trump to back it up; then it does not hurt to catch your partner’s bower on the first trick. If I have a right-king, even, or a left-king, I lead the king.
See pages 51-52 of The Columbus Book of Euchre (2nd edition). “Let the puppy in!” The puppy, in this case, is your partner’s unguarded bower. See the New Appendix on line, at “Lead low trump when going ‘next’,” and The Columbus Book of Euchre (2nd ed.), at page 52.

It makes no big difference what the dealer turned down. The assumption is, his team does not have the bowers to support an assist or a pickup. It is not unlikely that if your partner does have the key trump, it is unguarded.

If I call “next” with bower-king-nine or bower-queen-nine, I lead the king or queen (to stay over an opponent’s queen or ten if that’s all that’s out there against us). I might lead the right if I have it in that situation, but usually not; it depends on the cards I have to fall back on. If I have the “green” aces, that’s a reason to save a high trump, to get back into the lead later to cash my aces.

And if I call “next” with only one trump – which I do not at all infrequently – I lead it, whether it is the nine, the right bower, or anything in between, including the unguarded left bower – because my partner probably needs it and expects it, if for no other reason.

Sometimes you wind up looking like a fool leading low trump when you call “next,” but it never hurts to let your opponents think they are playing fools.

Natty Bumppo

Link:

http://members.tripod.com/~Borf_Books/ecolum22.htm#Nextwhy
So not possibly taking out your partner's lone left is a big benefit to this play but the biggest reason of all that we run this play is to minimize our chance of getting euchred.
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm
Contrast that to this hand:

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-C)

Let's say that you aren't in a position where you really need the points since I'd be going alone with this hand if we're down 8-3 or something like that. My point here is to more illustrate that in this example, your side is obviously strong in trump.

I'm going to lead the right here. Now the problems that arise by potentially stripping your partner of his only trump are less material because you still have enough trump to most likely control the balance of the hand.
I agree. I also like Edward's (Tbolt65) crossing the river example.

Dealer turns down a club and you call hearts in the 1 seat with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_9-S)

It's so hard to get euchred if you lead the (Card_9-H) , whereas things can easily go wrong if you lead the (Card_J-H) . It could very well be the case that this line is the best play at ANY score except in Hail Mary loner scenarios. It would be really fun to simulate all these spots and find out with that mythical euchre simulator.

Edit: one final more dicey example:
An aggressive player who would always call with Right + 1 turns down the (Card_K-D) from the dealer spot. Score is 0-0.

You have (Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-S)

Leading low here may be best again. You already know that the Left is not in Seat 4, and Seat 2 passed in the 1st round so there's a great chance he doesn't have it, so lead low to hit your partner. If this play goes wrong you still have a backup plan. Win the club lead, then send the Right, and lead your other boss club for a point.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:53 pm

This spot came up for me recently:

My team was up 5-1. Dealer upcard was the (Card_K-D)

I was in the 1 seat with (Card_A-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_J-C)

Everyone passed in the first round, and I called clubs.

Seat 2 had (Card_K-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-C)

My partner had the (Card_A-C)

I led low with the (Card_Q-C)

The 2 seat correctly played under allowing my partner to take the first trick with his lone (Card_A-C) in trump.

We ended up only getting 3 tricks. If I didn't lead low on the first lead we go set. That's one of the other benefits of leading low in these kind've spots. You will sometimes strip seat 2 of his protected left, which can put your team on the road to 2 points or save your team from being euchred.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 am

I have serious issues with leading low on this holding on two counts.

One by leading low, you are conceding an opportunity for a sweep except when your partner wins the trick. Statistically, there will the hands each opponent will only have 1 trump or none, about 28%. If you lead the right, you may get a march 16 - 20% of the time. Far greater frequency than leading low. If you lead low, I am playing low at 2nd seat even if I hold the ace or left. You are leaving points on the table with your ploy.

Secondly, by leading low and now with this holding you only have the Right. You have to win three tricks with the Right and two aces, one is what was turned down. If opponents lead the AD are you going to trump with the right?

For me, the best strategy is lead the Right, then the AS and save that little trump for when the opponent leads Diamonds, your void. With the other holding, two leads of trump only works if both opponents have two trumps each which statistically is 9% of the time. Still with that holding again giving up to a greater opportunity for a sweep.

Tbolt65 said, "That hand is of one instance. Another is that of Jh,9h, AC,AS,9S. As with same set up as last hand. Lead 9h. This is just a little stronger hand to do so since you have both aces"

Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 am

LEADING AWAY FROM THE RIGHT:

Tbolt65 said, "That hand is of one instance. Another is that of Jh,9h, AC,AS,9S. As with same set up as last hand. Lead 9h. This is just a little stronger hand to do so since you have both aces"

ILLUSTRATION OF WHY LEADING AWAY IS NOT ALWAYS A GOOD PLOY: FROM THE HAND ABOVE (DIAMONDS IS TRUMP, CLUBS WENT DOWN) , COMPARING LEADING THE 9d vs THE RIGHT. LEADING AWAY MIGHT WORK MANY TIMES BUT LEADING THE RIGHT IS BETTER, IMO!

LEADING AWAY FROM THE RIGHT: GETTING EUCHRED !
TRK: 1 2 3 4 5
N1 9D 9H AH JD AS
P2 KD TC AD 9C QS
B3 QD JC 9H TS KS
D4 TD KC QH 9S JH

SHOULDA LED THE JD: FOR A POINT
TRK: 1 2 3 4 5
N1 JD AH 9D AS 9H
P2 KD AD TC QS 9C
B3 QD 9H JC TS KS
D4 TD QH KC 9S JH

NOTE: FOLLOW THE TRICKS STARTING WITH ELDEST (ELDEST=N1 . . . DEALER =D4).

IRISHWOLF

Tbolt65
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Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:25 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 am
LEADING AWAY FROM THE RIGHT:

Tbolt65 said, "That hand is of one instance. Another is that of Jh,9h, AC,AS,9S. As with same set up as last hand. Lead 9h. This is just a little stronger hand to do so since you have both aces"

ILLUSTRATION OF WHY LEADING AWAY IS NOT ALWAYS A GOOD PLOY: FROM THE HAND ABOVE (DIAMONDS IS TRUMP, CLUBS WENT DOWN) , COMPARING LEADING THE 9d vs THE RIGHT. LEADING AWAY MIGHT WORK MANY TIMES BUT LEADING THE RIGHT IS BETTER, IMO!

LEADING AWAY FROM THE RIGHT: GETTING EUCHRED !
TRK: 1 2 3 4 5
N1 9D 9H AH JD AS
P2 KD TC AD 9C QS
B3 QD JC 9H TS KS
D4 TD KC QH 9S JH

SHOULDA LED THE JD: FOR A POINT
TRK: 1 2 3 4 5
N1 JD AH 9D AS 9H
P2 KD AD TC QS 9C
B3 QD 9H JC TS KS
D4 TD QH KC 9S JH

NOTE: FOLLOW THE TRICKS STARTING WITH ELDEST (ELDEST=N1 . . . DEALER =D4).

IRISHWOLF

I can show hands of having 4 Trump with an off ace and still get euchre. It doesn't stop me from making the call.

Like I have always said. Everything depends on the situation. There is a time and place for everything. You have to gauge when to and when not to make certain plays or make certain calls.

I was merely giving some examples of when you might try it. I never said it works 100 percent of the time just that it can possibly give you a overall better shot at making point. There will be times you get euchred. There will be times you march and get 2pts. Such is the game of Euchre.

Tbolt65
Edward

Mxx
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Post by Mxx » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 am

In my experience, leading away from the right is better in defensive situations where you think the opponents have a better stack of trump than your team. It gives you the chance to get "on top" of the trump stack (by retaining the right) and forcing them to play to your teams aces.

In offence I think it is probably only better to lead away from the right when you have a reasonable expectation that your partner holds the left. Next and reverse next calls being the prime examples.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:42 pm

I agree with your statement as quoted below as it may apply to SOME hands. But we are not talking about ALL or some, specifically this hand you gave Jh 9h Ac As 9s. For this hand it far better to lead the Jack first.

Then to the 2nd trick, depending on what was played, you have options as to what to lead. And if each opponent has one or none, you can get a sweep (estimate 20 - 25%) of the time. If my partner had none and each opponent played a low trump you can even lead trump again.

Tbolt said, "Like I have always said. Everything depends on the situation. There is a time and place for everything. You have to gauge when to and when not to make certain plays or make certain calls."

Irishwolf

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