Threshold for Ordering Up Partner

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jblowery
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Threshold for Ordering Up Partner

Post by jblowery » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:29 pm

This has happend a few times lately. I have the left protected. Maybe a side ace or maybe not. The up-card may be the rt. Partner rarely seems to go alone in these situations. We also have a very probable trick, especially if I have the ace. He turns down the rt bower and then our opponents get a trick or it goes all the way around the table and my partner ends up having to call reverse next where I have nothing.

Would you order up the rt when you have left protected?

What if you also have a side ace?



Tbolt65
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:47 pm

jblowery wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:29 pm
This has happend a few times lately. I have the left protected. Maybe a side ace or maybe not. The up-card may be the rt. Partner rarely seems to go alone in these situations. We also have a very probable trick, especially if I have the ace. He turns down the rt bower and then our opponents get a trick or it goes all the way around the table and my partner ends up having to call reverse next where I have nothing.

Would you order up the rt when you have left protected?

What if you also have a side ace?

Yes I would. To both.


But..........

Only if they have shown me they don't pick the jack +1 Or jack +2 scenarios.


Other situations I would order up regardless of partners tendicies is at a 9-9 score and possibly 8-9 but only at 8 to 9 if I don't think they will try alone other wise I might pass if my partner is likely to try it and I don't want to potentially ruin two points by me being in the lead with a poor off suit later in the hand.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:28 pm

I'm in agreement with Edward (Tbolt). Yes, in theory you should not order up your partner's bower unless you have 3 trump or more with some exceptions at 8 or 9. But in practice you need to be slightly more aggressive becuz the typical euchre player passes too much and doesn't go alone enough.

So ironically perhaps, I don't see ordering up the Right with Left +1 and an off ace or just Left + 1 as an individual read-based play. That's the default play I make based on overall population reads. IOW I MUST have a individual read that says this guy plays really well in order to get me to back off and play this spot theoretically correct and not order up his bower with just Left + 1.

When you're playing with a partner that you don't know, pay attention to what kind've hands he calls with and goes alone with. For example if I see my partner go alone with any of the hand examples below I would immediately back off from ordering up his bower with 2 unless a future read says otherwise:

Assume your partner is in the dealer position, the score is neutral (excluding 8-x, 9-x) and for the sake of simplicity assume all loners are in diamonds:

(Card_J-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-H)

(Card_J-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-S)

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C)

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-S)

(Card_J-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

(Card_J-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

(Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-C)

If you see your partner go alone on any of those weak loners then you would know to not get in his way in the 2 seat. This guy is fearless and aggressive, everything you want in a partner.

If you see your partner just calling with strong hands like below, then that's further confirmation that you need to order his bower up from seat 2 slightly more loosely:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-S)

(Card_J-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_9-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C)

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-S)

(Card_J-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-S)

RedDuke
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:31 pm

jblowery wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:29 pm
This has happend a few times lately. I have the left protected. Maybe a side ace or maybe not. The up-card may be the rt. Partner rarely seems to go alone in these situations. We also have a very probable trick, especially if I have the ace. He turns down the rt bower and then our opponents get a trick or it goes all the way around the table and my partner ends up having to call reverse next where I have nothing.

Would you order up the rt when you have left protected?

What if you also have a side ace?
If I have a protected left and a side ace, I'd be very strongly considering ordering up the right and going alone depending on what the other cards are. If my second trump card is the king or ace, it's an even easier loner since you've got three very likely tricks.

Otherwise, yes, the general rule is that you don't order up the right to your partner unless you have three trump because of the risk of messing up their loner. In practice, most people won't go alone unless they're holding three trump including both bowers so if you're holding a guarded left, you probably should order up.

As I said though, depending on what my other cards are, I'd be very strongly considering going alone. For example, this hand is a great loner:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-C)

if you're ordering up the Jack of Diamonds.

Less obvious but still a decent loner:

(Card_J-D) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S)

with the Jack of Hearts being ordered up.

Would order up but probably won't try it alone:

(Card_J-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-C)

with Jack of Hearts as the upcard.

For the most part, I do order up the right if I'm only holding a guarded left. The exception to this rule is if I've got a partner that I know can be aggressive with loners like Wes. With someone like that as a partner, they're going to pick up if they've got anything at all in their hand and will certainly go alone without the left. They might even try it without the right (I've done that more than once). But with an average partner, I'm ordering.

Honestly, I don't think people try second seat loners anywhere close to enough. Especially in the first round. You already know that one trump is out of play and you know what it is, so you've got a better shot at scoring the loner sweep than you do with any other position (except for maybe the dealer).

Tbolt65
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:41 am

RedDuke wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:31 pm


Honestly, I don't think people try second seat loners anywhere close to enough. Especially in the first round. You already know that one trump is out of play and you know what it is, so you've got a better shot at scoring the loner sweep than you do with any other position (except for maybe the dealer).

Too many passers there. Way........way too many. Thats one of the reasons 2nd seat doesn't try as much. They are passing.


Edward
TBOLT65

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