Pass or Call with Euchre Hand

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RedDuke
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Pass or Call with Euchre Hand

Post by RedDuke » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:06 pm

This came up in a game that I played last night and was wondering how you'd say the best way to play it is.

Neutral score. I'm the dealer holding this:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_J-C)

Upcard is the (Card_J-D) .

Would you pass on this or call?

If I picked up, I've got two guaranteed tricks with both bowers. However, I don't really have much else. While the Ace-King might take a trick, there's also a decent chance that it won't considering that there's only three hearts left in the wild so I'd have to have each of the other players have one (or a partner that plays second hand low properly) to make that Ace good.

Here's what makes this interesting. If I pass and first seat calls next, then I'm holding the top three trump and I euchre them. If he goes against Hoyle and calls reverse next then I've got the top two trumps and have a chance at a euchre if I make the Ace good (or my partner gets a trick).

If I pass and everybody passes second round (a lot of people don't want to call if they don't have a bower) then I'll just call hearts and make the point.

In other words, this is probably a one point hand if I pick up. If I pass, it's either still good for at least a point and could very easily be a two point hand if either I score the euchre or if my partner calls to his strong suit and plays well enough to get the sweep.

Ultimately, I passed. First seat went against Hoyle and called clubs, but he actually led the queen of hearts. I guessed that he was fishing. My partner trumped it, his partner threw off the Ace of Diamonds and I played the Ace of Hearts. My two black jacks took two tricks later in the hand for the euchre.

My question is would you have played it the same way or would you have picked up the jack? What do you think of my reasoning here?



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:55 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:06 pm
This came up in a game that I played last night and was wondering how you'd say the best way to play it is.

Neutral score. I'm the dealer holding this:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_J-C)

Upcard is the (Card_J-D) .

Would you pass on this or call?

If I picked up, I've got two guaranteed tricks with both bowers. However, I don't really have much else. While the Ace-King might take a trick, there's also a decent chance that it won't considering that there's only three hearts left in the wild so I'd have to have each of the other players have one (or a partner that plays second hand low properly) to make that Ace good.

Here's what makes this interesting. If I pass and first seat calls next, then I'm holding the top three trump and I euchre them. If he goes against Hoyle and calls reverse next then I've got the top two trumps and have a chance at a euchre if I make the Ace good (or my partner gets a trick).

If I pass and everybody passes second round (a lot of people don't want to call if they don't have a bower) then I'll just call hearts and make the point.

In other words, this is probably a one point hand if I pick up. If I pass, it's either still good for at least a point and could very easily be a two point hand if either I score the euchre or if my partner calls to his strong suit and plays well enough to get the sweep.

Ultimately, I passed. First seat went against Hoyle and called clubs, but he actually led the queen of hearts. I guessed that he was fishing. My partner trumped it, his partner threw off the Ace of Diamonds and I played the Ace of Hearts. My two black jacks took two tricks later in the hand for the euchre.

My question is would you have played it the same way or would you have picked up the jack? What do you think of my reasoning here?
This hand is a MUST pass. If you pick up you have both bowers and a dirty ace. A good holding sure, but a holding that can still easily get set. If you pass you have the deck utterly destroyed to the point where it's not even fair.

Tbolt65
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:18 pm

Is it, std? Are the opponents play style known. Is your partners known. All important information to consider. Plus the actual score. I know you said it was neutral but is that 9-9, 0-0, 3-3 etc..... Gotta factor it all in.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:17 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:18 pm
Is it, std? Are the opponents play style known. Is your partners known. All important information to consider. Plus the actual score. I know you said it was neutral but is that 9-9, 0-0, 3-3 etc..... Gotta factor it all in.

Tbolt65
Edward
I would say always assume it's STD unless OP says otherwise. I don't think play style is actually relevant in this specific hand. Our hand is just so much better if we pass that other player's tendencies don't really matter here. We're talking about calling up and likely fighting for 1 point vs passing and having the deck absolutely crushed with a great chance at getting 2 points no matter who calls.

The only score this hand gets interesting is at 9-9. Now passing loses a lot of its luster. Euchring our opponents no longer has any value (assuming we're in a non-tournament structure where winning is all that matters). Honestly tho, given how dirty our off ace is if we pick up and given how super strong our hand is if we pass, I even think passing at 9-9 is defensible. Certainly a spot I wish we could simulate. That said, at 9-9 I would call this up, but it's gotta be close.

In the Thursday tournament we play in (I'm assuming you're the infamous Edward I play with :) ) I'm absolutely passing at 9-9 given that points are more important than winning in that format.

Tbolt65
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:51 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:17 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:18 pm
Is it, std? Are the opponents play style known. Is your partners known. All important information to consider. Plus the actual score. I know you said it was neutral but is that 9-9, 0-0, 3-3 etc..... Gotta factor it all in.

Tbolt65
Edward
I would say always assume it's STD unless OP says otherwise. I don't think play style is actually relevant in this specific hand. Our hand is just so much better if we pass that other player's tendencies don't really matter here. We're talking about calling up and likely fighting for 1 point vs passing and having the deck absolutely crushed with a great chance at getting 2 points no matter who calls.

The only score this hand gets interesting is at 9-9. Now passing loses a lot of its luster. Euchring our opponents no longer has any value (assuming we're in a non-tournament structure where winning is all that matters). Honestly tho, given how dirty our off ace is if we pick up and given how super strong our hand is if we pass, I even think passing at 9-9 is defensible. Certainly a spot I wish we could simulate. That said, at 9-9 I would call this up, but it's gotta be close.

In the Thursday tournament we play in (I'm assuming you're the infamous Edward I play with :) ) I'm absolutely passing at 9-9 given that points are more important than winning in that format.
Knowing your partners play style is important here especially at 9-9. If they don't order you up they are saying basically the have 0-1 Trump and probably no off aces. At 9-9 with a bower up to the dealer (their partner) . Most well rounded euchre players should be ordering their partner up with two Trump no side aces 100 percent of the time and possibly 1 Trump with two side aces. It's do or die and you want to be the team making trump. So by him passing you can rest assured he has no help if you pick in that 9-9 situation. If seat one does call something you are in a great spot to set since they are on your left and if he does pass. You know for a fact any competent partner will go black or at the very least make a call in which case you have major help for them.

Btw Wes I am one in the same. It is I.


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:02 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:51 pm
Knowing your partners play style is important here especially at 9-9. If they don't order you up they are saying basically the have 0-1 Trump and probably no off aces. At 9-9 with a bower up to the dealer (their partner) . Most well rounded euchre players should be ordering their partner up with two Trump no side aces 100 percent of the time and possibly 1 Trump with two side aces. It's do or die and you want to be the team making trump. So by him passing you can rest assured he has no help if you pick in that 9-9 situation.
Excellent point.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:51 pm
Wes I am one in the same. It is I.


Tbolt65
Edward
Awesome :)

RedDuke
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:03 pm

This one came up again in a game I was playing a couple days ago. I was in third seat holding something like this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-H)

Upcard was the 9 or 10 of hearts. I forget exactly what I had as my off cards but I had both reverse next jacks and a protected left if someone called next. Of course, if dealer picked up then I had the right.

I passed on this in first round. So did the dealer. Second round, first two seats pass. I pass as well. Dealer calls something black as she got stuck with a fairly weak hand either way. My partner takes the first trick. I naturally take two with the two bowers for the euchre.

After the hand played out, dealer was wondering why in the world I would pass with three jacks! I pointed out that I was probably going to take two tricks no matter what trump was so if my partner could take one then we'd get two points instead of one if I called. She still didn't get it, but my partner thought my argument was pretty smart.

Tbolt65
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:33 am

RedDuke wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:03 pm
This one came up again in a game I was playing a couple days ago. I was in third seat holding something like this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-H)

Upcard was the 9 or 10 of hearts. I forget exactly what I had as my off cards but I had both reverse next jacks and a protected left if someone called next. Of course, if dealer picked up then I had the right.

I passed on this in first round. So did the dealer. Second round, first two seats pass. I pass as well. Dealer calls something black as she got stuck with a fairly weak hand either way. My partner takes the first trick. I naturally take two with the two bowers for the euchre.

After the hand played out, dealer was wondering why in the world I would pass with three jacks! I pointed out that I was probably going to take two tricks no matter what trump was so if my partner could take one then we'd get two points instead of one if I called. She still didn't get it, but my partner thought my argument was pretty smart.
Yeah at neutral score tha his play and the previous is fine how they played out.

TBOLT65
Edward

RedDuke
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:55 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:33 am
RedDuke wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:03 pm
This one came up again in a game I was playing a couple days ago. I was in third seat holding something like this:

(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-H)

Upcard was the 9 or 10 of hearts. I forget exactly what I had as my off cards but I had both reverse next jacks and a protected left if someone called next. Of course, if dealer picked up then I had the right.

I passed on this in first round. So did the dealer. Second round, first two seats pass. I pass as well. Dealer calls something black as she got stuck with a fairly weak hand either way. My partner takes the first trick. I naturally take two with the two bowers for the euchre.

After the hand played out, dealer was wondering why in the world I would pass with three jacks! I pointed out that I was probably going to take two tricks no matter what trump was so if my partner could take one then we'd get two points instead of one if I called. She still didn't get it, but my partner thought my argument was pretty smart.
Yeah at neutral score tha his play and the previous is fine how they played out.

TBOLT65
Edward
Yeah, definitely at a score of nine or something like that I would have called. No point bothering trying to get two points by euchring them when you're all but certain to get one via a good call. Basically, I was certain that I could get two tricks off of this hand. But it wasn't strong enough for me to bet on getting all five tricks even with my partner's help. I figured though that my partner would be able to get one. (She did, as she had at least one or two of the red aces).

So, with my two and the assumption that my partner would get one, I figured three tricks between us. As STD was in effect, I knew that the dealer couldn't just redeal. So I figured that it would have a better payoff if I just sat back and got the three tricks off of their call instead of struggling uphill to get two points by taking all five tricks.

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