Spade King up - Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

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Richardb02
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Spade King up - Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:26 pm

(Card_K-S) Up, Score 8-8, Average & equal players
(Card_K-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S) Your hand in Seat 2
Do you call & risk euchre?



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:39 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-S) Up, Score 8-8, Average & equal players
(Card_K-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S) Your hand in Seat 2
Do you call & risk euchre?
This is an absolute MUST call. If your partner passes you pretty much have a dead hand in the 2nd round. The possibility of Seat 1 closing out the game with a call goes up significantly when you have such a garbage holding in the 2nd round. Spades is clearly your team's best chance. Your team has 4 out of 7 trump. Gotta order that strong of a hand at ANY score. IOW, the risk of passing is higher than the risk of calling.

There is an exception to the above however. Before the game you and your partner could form an agreement that IF they are the dealer and have the Right bower up they will always pick it up no matter what when their team is down 9-6 9-7, 8-6. In those situations this allows seat 2 to always pass unless he has a loner, which crucially means Seat 2 will never have to worry about accidently blocking their partners game winning loner. This strategy is of course null and void if a pro is in seat 1 since he'll always donate if he doesn't have a loner sweep stopped, but only like 1 out of 100 people even do that.

So for example if your team is down 9-6, and your partner the dealer has the (Card_J-S) up.

And you have (Card_K-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S)

Now you would pass with that agreement in place.

But what about if there is no agreement? What if your partner is a very strong player who will go alone on anything viable to try to win the game, All 2 trump loners and even the 1 trump loners, he's going for it. And your partner has many hand combos where he'll pick up if all he has is the Right anyways. Would it not be best to pass this 3 low trump hand down 9-6 hoping your partner can win the game with one of those hail mary loners? I suspect that's the case but we're talking about a very rare permutation here. Out of the thousands of partners I've had thanks to online, I can count on 1 hand how many players are THAT strong, and even if you have that magical partner, if seat 1 donates it's all moot.

jblowery
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:04 am

I always order my partner if I have 3 trump or Rt+1. I'll almost always pick up with Rt+1 and pick up with 3 low trump most of the time.

Richardb02
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:56 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:39 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-S) Up, Score 8-8, Average & equal players
(Card_K-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S) Your hand in Seat 2
Do you call & risk euchre?
This is an absolute MUST call. If your partner passes you pretty much have a dead hand in the 2nd round. The possibility of Seat 1 closing out the game with a call goes up significantly when you have such a garbage holding in the 2nd round. Spades is clearly your team's best chance. Your team has 4 out of 7 trump. Gotta order that strong of a hand at ANY score. IOW, the risk of passing is higher than the risk of calling.
I agree, but I still had to go through m doubts. Here is what went through my mind. Does anyone else experience these doubts?
I started with the BPS:
0.50 Seat 2
0.25 9c
0.25 Tc
0.50 Qc
0.25 Void
0.50 3 trump (but weakest 3 trump)
2.25 Points, more than the 2.00 minimum but the score is 8-8
-.25 because Opponents have 8 points and we lose if I'm euchred
2.00 borderline call, what else is important (self doubt)
????? We have 8 points, I need to be a click more aggressive with 8 or 9 points
!!!!! I have spades and nothing else! That is a plus for calling
2.00 Defines a count that suggests calling from Seat 2.That clinched my decision.
I called.
Well, that's my experience of over-thinking and self-doubts compared to Wes', "absolute must call" and jblowery, "I always call." Does anyone else go through these doubts?

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:58 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:39 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-S) Up, Score 8-8, Average & equal players
(Card_K-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S) Your hand in Seat 2
Do you call & risk euchre?
This is an absolute MUST call. If your partner passes you pretty much have a dead hand in the 2nd round. The possibility of Seat 1 closing out the game with a call goes up significantly when you have such a garbage holding in the 2nd round. Spades is clearly your team's best chance. Your team has 4 out of 7 trump. Gotta order that strong of a hand at ANY score. IOW, the risk of passing is higher than the risk of calling.

There is an exception to the above however. Before the game you and your partner could form an agreement that IF they are the dealer and have the Right bower up they will always pick it up no matter what when their team is down 9-6 9-7, 8-6. In those situations this allows seat 2 to always pass unless he has a loner, which crucially means Seat 2 will never have to worry about accidently blocking their partners game winning loner. This strategy is of course null and void if a pro is in seat 1 since he'll always donate if he doesn't have a loner sweep stopped, but only like 1 out of 100 people even do that.

So for example if your team is down 9-6, and your partner the dealer has the (Card_J-S) up.

And you have (Card_K-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S)

Now you would pass with that agreement in place.

But what about if there is no agreement? What if your partner is a very strong player who will go alone on anything viable to try to win the game, All 2 trump loners and even the 1 trump loners, he's going for it. And your partner has many hand combos where he'll pick up if all he has is the Right anyways. Would it not be best to pass this 3 low trump hand down 9-6 hoping your partner can win the game with one of those hail mary loners? I suspect that's the case but we're talking about a very rare permutation here. Out of the thousands of partners I've had thanks to online, I can count on 1 hand how many players are THAT strong, and even if you have that magical partner, if seat 1 donates it's all moot.
Agree with Wes. While it is possible to be euchred here (I got euchred while holding four trump, one of which was the left, last night, for example), it's rare and you really have nothing else here so you have to call. The fact that you're putting a trump in your partner's hand helps too because he can create a void. So really, unless your opponents literally have all of the remaining trump and an ace or two, you're not going to be euchred here. This is your best chance and remember that your opponents have next deal with a ~70% chance of winning a point. So you have to make the call here.

Richardb02
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:32 pm

I agree 100%, but pulling the trigger (calling, ordering) still demands overcoming the emotion. The biggest emotion is, "fear of loss." You, RedDuke and Wes have flipped the switch to "absolute must call" based on extensive experience. But we are only looking at a single hand. There are many, many hands that create the same emotions. Less experienced players, like myself, need more easy to use tools to understand where decision point is located. The BPS helps me. I suggest it can help others.

The 2.00 rating for the hand indicates a 67%, + or -, chance of success for starters. Actually, if you look more closely, the hand is rated 2.25. The 2.25 rating (prior to a deduct to be cautious because Opponents have 8 points) is more important. You can't stop thinking because you are using a BPS. The rating of 2.25 ticks my expectation rate to arguably 72%. At 72% it is a must call (but as RedDuke points out you must be mentally prepared for euchre, even with a stronger hand). So BPS-Basic agrees with the experienced players. And BPS-Basic doesn't take into account more advanced concepts, like defensive calling. Advanced concepts will be covered in BPS-Advanced to add in the knowledge being shared by Wes, RedDuke, Irish, Don and others.

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