Was I wrong to lead trump?

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Streblerm
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:58 am

Was I wrong to lead trump?

Post by Streblerm » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:04 am

Recently I was playing a game where my partner made a next trump call in the second round of bidding from third seat. The turned down card was a nine. He was holding the right and the ace with another singleton ace. And not much else. I had a real crap hand. Four suited with my highest card being an off queen but I had 10 of trump. The dealer was holding the left, king, and queen of the trump suit and another ace.

I lead my ten trump and my partner (much higher rating than me) got all bent out of shape. Of course we got euchred. My partner was so angry he decided to throw the game to “teach me a lesson”.

I like to learn from my mistakes, if I make them. It seems to me that this was a loser hand no matter what unless the dealer played his hand poorly and my partner really had nobody to be upset with other than himself.



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:23 pm

You gotta lead trump in that spot. Always lead trump to your partner if you have the lead or get the lead unless trump has already been lead or you have an action read suggesting your partner is weak.

So you made the right lead, and your partner made the right call. Part of the reason card games are so fun and interesting is doing every right doesn't always lead to good outcomes.

Btw your partner is a total jerk and not only would I never wanna play with him again, I would want nothing to do with him in any aspect of life.

Streblerm
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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:58 am

Post by Streblerm » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:01 pm

That’s what I thought. I just wanted to make sure. My partners reaction was so immediate and so intense it made me question myself. In the forum I play your partner is pretty much luck of the draw. I hope that we don’t encounter each other again.

I wasn’t upset with his call. There’s no way, other than cheating, that I could have known what he had in his hand. If I were in his seat I would have wanted my partner to do the same thing I did. As a matter of fact what would have made me upset was seeing that trump card pulled out of my first seat partner’s hand later in the round.

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:30 pm

Arguably, your partner's hand may have been a bit weak to call from third seat. Yes, generally second round third seat can loosen up a bit, but right+ace and a side ace isn't a very strong holding from that spot.

Whenever third seat makes trump, in either the first or second round, then the proper first lead is always a trump card. Anyone calling from third seat should have in mind the way that they intend to control the hand and usually that involves having the right and ideally at least one of the remaining boss trump cards after that first lead. That's where your partner screwed up as he didn't account for the dealer behind him having two trump (yes, I know that dealer actually had three).

Honestly, I would have probably called that same suit if your partner passed and I was the dealer and made a point. So realistically, the fact that you were euchred only cost the team one point.

And I agree with Wes, that partner is an idiot and a jerk.

Streblerm
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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:58 am

Post by Streblerm » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:47 pm

I don’t begrudge the aggressive call. I might have made the same one, maybe.

Richardb02
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:01 pm

Your partner was out of line. I have nothing to add to that.

What caught my attention was Wes saying the Seat 3 Round 2 call was the right call and RedDuke saying it was a bit weak. I'm actually in between the two! I would pass with a Singleton Black Ace and I would call with a Singleton Green Ace. It is an edge hand to me. I would have no qualms with either decision by my partner. We must make room for differing approaches.

My questions are for Wes, is this an edge hand for you from Seat 3 Round 2?
You are at least 3 clicks looser than your Seat 3 Round 1 calls.
Does the impact of "avoiding technical mistakes" reduce by approximately 3 clicks between the 1st and 2nd rounds when calling from Seat 3? I could quantify the 3 clicks as, 1. Almost no chance to euchre the opponent, 2. No opportunity for a next round Next call by your Seat 1 partner and 3. No opportunity for a surprising but possible reverse next hand by Seat 1.

Let's envision the hand:
(Card_J-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H)
(Card_9-S) has been turned down.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:09 pm

What caught my attention was Wes saying the Seat 3 Round 2 call was the right call and RedDuke saying it was a bit weak. I'm actually in between the two! I would pass with a Singleton Black Ace and I would call with a Singleton Green Ace. It is an edge hand to me. I would have no qualms with either decision by my partner. We must make room for differing approaches.
I think Wes is a bit more of an aggressive player than I am. I would have passed with that if I only had Right+Ace in third seat. If I had a third trump, say the 9 or the 10, I would have called.

I also would have called if the turn card was a jack as then I know that my Right+Ace is good for two tricks. Otherwise you run into the problem where if the dealer has two trump and one of them is the left, then your Right+Ace is only good for one trick.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:38 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:01 pm
My questions are for Wes, is this an edge hand for you from Seat 3 Round 2?
You are at least 3 clicks looser than your Seat 3 Round 1 calls.
Does the impact of "avoiding technical mistakes" reduce by approximately 3 clicks between the 1st and 2nd rounds when calling from Seat 3? I could quantify the 3 clicks as, 1. Almost no chance to euchre the opponent, 2. No opportunity for a next round Next call by your Seat 1 partner and 3. No opportunity for a surprising but possible reverse next hand by Seat 1.

Let's envision the hand:
(Card_J-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H)
(Card_9-S) has been turned down.
If the dealer turned down a black card, I'm just not passing a hand from 3rd when I have virtually nothing in red and a decent shot at making a point in the other black. The above hand is more than enough for me to call. What I consider an edge hand in that spot is (Assume 9s is turned down):

(Card_J-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H)

And I would still call clubs with that hand too, but that's definitely close to the edge. The exact edge for me in this spot is Right + 1 in next and nothing else or Left + 1 and an off ace.

But here's the rub. If my partner was me, I would not call with either hands! Becuz then not only would I know that my partner has red blocked, but I would also know that his range is weakest in Next becuz he will sometimes pass without having Next blocked. And I would also know that since he has red blocked and I have AcJcAs like in the OP, that means combined our team has a euchre hand that's got a great chance to set the dealer!

But now we have to go back to reality. Most people do not play seat 1, 2nd round like I do. Most people pass biddable hands in that spot. Most people have no or little concept of playing sound defense and protecting their team. In short, most people have no clue what their real responsibility is in Seat 1. Most people just play their cards. What that means is, if my partner is some random, which is certainly the case the vast majority of time for all of us who play online, we have to loosen up our range in 3rd seat, 2nd round to basically call for our partner. Now you can't take this idea too far, like I'm generally not gonna call clubs with a hand like this (assume 9s was turned down):

(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-S)

In the past, I've tried those kind've of hands when my partner is a major passer. They generally don't work out well so I scrapped the idea, but IMO a hand like:

(Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H)

Works out well enough if your partner plays euchre in the typical way 99% of the euchre population plays. Throw in an off ace like in the OP's hand and to me it's a very comfortable call.

Streblerm
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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:58 am

Post by Streblerm » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:16 am

I really appreciate the breakdown guys. I’ve been playing euchre for 25 years and I consider myself a pretty decent player. Mostly I’ve gone with my gut and it has worked pretty well, but not always. I’ve Only recently started playing lots of online games and studying strategies which has really opened my eyes to some of the things I was doing wrong. It’s also helped me to avoid making knee jerk “corrections”.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:29 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:01 pm
Does the impact of "avoiding technical mistakes" reduce by approximately 3 clicks between the 1st and 2nd rounds when calling from Seat 3?
Forgot to address this the other day. To reiterate, the concept of "avoiding technical mistakes" really only applies to 3rd seat, 1st round. The rest of the time in euchre you are usually compelled to call for offensive purposes or defensive purposes (technically that's a false dichotomy since all euchre calls are a mixture of both but you know what I mean). If you are compelled to call, technical mistakes become irrelevant. IMO, the hand in the OP is a hand we absolutely should feel compelled to call. Passing that strong of a hand when we have nothing in red after the dealer turned down a black card is damn near criminal.

Assuming the dealer turned down the (Card_9-S)

And the 3rd seat player had (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H)

let's not forget given the action in the first round there is a greater than normal chance the Left is buried in the kitty or our partner's hand. I mean I know the hand isn't perfect, but if anyone is passing that big of a hand from that spot when they have nothing in red, they need to clean up that problem straight away.

Funny thing is, probably 2 biddable hands were passed in order for OP's team to get euchred. 1) The dealer passed a clear biddable hand in the first round, and given that the OP had a 4 suited junk hand, and given what we know the dealer and seat 3 had, it is a virtual lock that Seat 2 had a good reverse next hand he should've called with. Those are the breaks, and part of what makes euchre so fun and interesting is weird stuff like that happens all the time.

3rd seat, 1st round decisions are unique becuz you often have a real decision to make, and it isn't always clear. You are not necessarily compelled to call. For example, ANY time you call in 3rd seat-1st round to fight for a point it is important to realize that basically a parlay must happen for your call to be correct in the technical sense. 1) The dealer would not have called had you passed and 2) your partner did not have at least a 1 point calling hand in the 2nd round had you passed and the dealer passed. Anyone who bets sports will tell you, parlays are hard to hit. This is why 3rd seat first rd is such a mindf**k.

I remember playing in a home game where the dealer was super aggressive, like aggressive to a fault, and my partner was a very savvy aggressive player who knew how to play sound defense in the 2nd round, often calling Next super thin when he didn't block Reverse Next, one of the best partners I've ever had. It was one of the few times that playing 3rd seat, 1st round was super easy. My strategy was simple and deadly effective: Never call anything unless I have a loner.

Richardb02
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:33 pm

Thanks Wes. You are seriously 2 or 3 levels above my decision skills. As I read your posts and the see them play out in games your concepts are making more sense.

I can wrap my head around some things. When I think of aggressive, I think of offensively aggressive only, especially as a basic Euchre player. You are also, definitely defensively aggressive. It looks like offensive aggressive to the casual reader (like me until I had this revelation). You are actually blitzing most of the time instead of throwing a Hail Mary! Many of your calls are based on blocking the opponents, as opposed to only squeezing out higher and higher percentages of hands where a point can be made (my limited approach).

You take defensive aggressive to another level from Seat 3 Round 1 with the concept of avoiding technical errors. Now you are playing for a fumble by the Dealer or an Interception by your partner in Seat 1.

Then you get into personnel decisions by identifying the weaknesses and strengths of the other players and creating plays (finding hands) that give you an advantage

That's 3 levels above me explained with football metaphors. Does anyone agree?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:04 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:33 pm
Thanks Wes. You are seriously 2 or 3 levels above my decision skills. As I read your posts and the see them play out in games your concepts are making more sense.
That's one thing I will add. Even if one disagrees with some of my more controversial recommendations, it never hurts to try them out for a thousand games or so and then decide what you think. That's the beauty of playing euchre on our phones/ipads, computers, etc. We can churn out a lot of games and kinda get to the long run real fast. And who cares if some random on our phone criticizes our play. The "WTF P!!" ratio for me is about 2-1. I.E. if I play 10 games of euchre on my phone my play will be criticized roughly 20 different times, mostly from my P. Just ignore it.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:33 pm
I can wrap my head around some things. When I think of aggressive, I think of offensively aggressive only, especially as a basic Euchre player. You are also, definitely defensively aggressive. It looks like offensive aggressive to the casual reader (like me until I had this revelation). You are actually blitzing most of the time instead of throwing a Hail Mary! Many of your calls are based on blocking the opponents, as opposed to only squeezing out higher and higher percentages of hands where a point can be made (my limited approach).

You take defensive aggressive to another level from Seat 3 Round 1 with the concept of avoiding technical errors. Now you are playing for a fumble by the Dealer or an Interception by your partner in Seat 1.

Then you get into personnel decisions by identifying the weaknesses and strengths of the other players and creating plays (finding hands) that give you an advantage

That's 3 levels above me explained with football metaphors. Does anyone agree?
Lol Idk about all the football analogies (I do like them tho!) but I do think probably the #1 mistake people make is focusing too much on the calling portion of their hand. In the first round this mistake will not lead to suboptimal decisions that often becuz the upcard dictates most of the action. Although looking back at my quiz, problems 2,5,7,10,12,13,16,18,24,27,28 do show the potential of making suboptimal first round decisions becuz one did not properly evaluate all 5 of their cards. It's the 2nd round where this problem really rears it's ugly head becuz it is often the case that in the 2nd round--especially in seat 1 and seat 2, and a little bit in 3rd--what you don't have will be driving your action more than what you DO have.

EG: Let's go back to the OP's 3rd seat, 2nd round hand. Something like:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H)

I said gotta call next with that. But what if we change just 1 card:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_J-H)

Now that's a must pass. We block all suits, and we have a euchre hand. Like I said, every card matters.

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:19 pm

That's one thing I will add. Even if one disagrees with some of my more controversial recommendations, it never hurts to try them out for a thousand games or so and then decide what you think. That's the beauty of playing euchre on our phones/ipads, computers, etc. We can churn out a lot of games and kinda get to the long run real fast. And who cares if some random on our phone criticizes our play. The "WTF P!!" ratio for me is about 2-1. I.E. if I play 10 games of euchre on my phone my play will be criticized roughly 20 different times, mostly from my P. Just ignore it.
The one thing that I noticed as my rating has gone up is that partners don't seem to criticize as much. At the lower levels, if I called while holding four trump and got euchred, my partner would go nuts and start cussing me out. At higher ratings, the partners seem to realize a bit faster that you're blocking or making a decent call (like calling with three trump + 1) and getting euchred because the partner can't help.

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