Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!

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Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:43 pm

Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_J-C) You are the Dealer.
(Card_9-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-S)

Getting the 10th point means that you should loosen your calls,
But Opponents having 8 points says to tighten your calls.
Pass or Call?



RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 pm

Wow... this is a really tough one. The fear is that if you pass then first seat will call next, in which case you don't have a guaranteed trick. If they make march, it's game over. On the other hand, if the guy in first seat calls reverse next, you've at least got him stopped at one point but he has the next deal.

I'd call it here and discard the jack of hearts. You've got a guaranteed trick in that with the right. The first lead will most likely be the ace of hearts in which case you have last play and can take it with the ten. Then you just need your partner to take a trick.

Admittedly, it may not play out perfectly like this, but your best chance is to pick up. It's better than the alternatives.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:53 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:43 pm
Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_J-C) You are the Dealer.
(Card_9-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-S)

Getting the 10th point means that you should loosen your calls,
But Opponents having 8 points says to tighten your calls.
Pass or Call?
I call but I can't stand this spot, but look at it this way, if you pass a next call can easily close out the game given that you have a nearly dead hand in spades, and a next call is gonna happen even more often than normal given that you would be turning down a bower. Or you pass, they call something and score a point and then they are the dealer as approx 2-1 favorites to win the game, not a fun scenario either. We can daydream about them calling diamonds but how often will that really happen anyways. So yeah I grit my teeth and call up 9-8 and hope for the best in a situation where none of our options are really that appealing.

Another hand I hate getting up 9-8 as the dealer:

Upcard is the (Card_Q-C)

You have (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-S)

Fun times.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:43 pm
Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_J-C) You are the Dealer.
(Card_9-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-S)
I agree 100% with RedWolf & Wes. This is getting scary!
What is even scarier, is looking at the BPS counts:
0.50 Seat 4
1.00 Jc
0.25 Tc
0.25 1 Void
2.00 Which is the minimum, "edge" order. But now:
+.25 for having 9 Points (to end & win the game
2.25 One click above minimum but:
-.25 for Opponent having 8 points:
2.00 We are back to the edge.

Wes stated, "Another hand I hate getting up 9-8 as the deale"r:

Upcard is the (Card_Q-C)

You have (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-S)
What is even scarier, is looking at the BPS counts:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Qc
0.25 9c
0.25 Tc
0.50 3 trump but weak
0.25 1 Void
2.25 A "tad" better than 2.00 but no trump winners. In fact no winners!
____ The BPS is an approximation. You must keep thinking and analyzing.
____ This hand is equivalent to the 2.00 rating for the previous hand. So:
2.00 means I'm confident of taking 1 trick but doubtful on the 2nd trick.
____ (2.50 points gives me 90% confidence that I can take 2 tricks).
+.25 for having 9 Points (to end & win the game
2.25 One click above minimum but:
-.25 for Opponent having 8 points:
2.00 We are back to the edge.

The final decision for both hands:
2.00 equates to a 60-70% chance of my success. (30 to 40% chance of being euchred and losing).
If I pass, 2.00 means that my hand is weak defensively, I estimate a 70% chance of Opponents taking at least 1 point (possibly 2). Plus Opponents have a 70% chance of making a point and winning the next hand. (They have the deal). Let's "guesstimate" that Opponents have a 60% chance of winning if I pass.

Order Up! Damn the torpedoes! Euchre is a game of chance and you must take chances to win more often.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:13 pm

Another:
Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_10-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)
Similar but different than the other hands!?

RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:28 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:13 pm
Another:
Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_10-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)
Similar but different than the other hands!?
The kicker there is that you have a high chance of being able to euchre a call in next. I'd still pick it up with that score though. You have a decent enough chance of getting a point, which is all you need, and you don't have to worry about those times that first seat will try a reverse next call.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:33 am

I would pick it up too.
Let's sweeten the urge to pass with this hand:

Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_J-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)

I would pick it up with this hand as well.
Can you think of any hand where you have an "Edge Hand", Seat 4, Round 1, Score 9-8; that you should not pick up?

RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:07 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:33 am
I would pick it up too.
Let's sweeten the urge to pass with this hand:

Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_J-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)

I would pick it up with this hand as well.
Can you think of any hand where you have an "Edge Hand", Seat 4, Round 1, Score 9-8; that you should not pick up?
I would pick that up too. While you do probably have two tricks no matter what the call is, you need three to prevent the enemy from scoring at least a point. Remember, they get the deal next hand and have roughly 2-1 odds to win with a score of 9-9!

Let's make this even harder. You're holding this:

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_J-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-S)

Upcard is the (Card_10-H) .

This is probably the ultimate edge hand. You have a guaranteed two tricks in any suit and you have a very high probability of taking three with any suit as trump. This is also the ultimate euchre hand and usually you'll want to pass with it as you really want the enemy to call here so you can get an extra point (it's only a 1 point hand if your side calls but is generally good for 2 points if the enemy calls).

I'm still picking up with a score of 9-8 though. If my side had only 8 points or less, I'd pass.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:52 pm

Yes, the 4 Jack Euchre Hand, is the ultimate test.

I agree though at 9-8, I am definitely picking up.
I would pick up at 9-9 as well.
Winning the game is the only goal.

If I had 6,7 or 8 points, I'm going Alone, with that hand.
I would actually go Alone whether Opponent had 0 or 9 points! But...
It is a partnership game, so if Opponent has 8 or 9, I would...
If Opponents had 9, I would Go Alone.
But if the score was 8-8, 2 points wins the game, I would pick up. But...
A game winning Loner is like a walk-off Grand Slam!
I would probably be too excited to think that far!
I would probably swing for the fences!
Play ball! Go Tampa Bay Rays! 12-4 so far.

RedDuke
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:11 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:52 pm
Yes, the 4 Jack Euchre Hand, is the ultimate test.

I agree though at 9-8, I am definitely picking up.
I would pick up at 9-9 as well.
Winning the game is the only goal.

If I had 6,7 or 8 points, I'm going Alone, with that hand.
I would actually go Alone whether Opponent had 0 or 9 points! But...
It is a partnership game, so if Opponent has 8 or 9, I would...
If Opponents had 9, I would Go Alone.
But if the score was 8-8, 2 points wins the game, I would pick up. But...
A game winning Loner is like a walk-off Grand Slam!
I would probably be too excited to think that far!
I would probably swing for the fences!
Play ball! Go Tampa Bay Rays! 12-4 so far.
I'll admit that I'm not sure about going alone with that hand. While it's unlikely that you'll be euchred, it's also pretty unlikely that you make the sweep. After all, the green jack is highly unlikely to take a trick. With that said though, if you're down 8-6 or so it might make sense to try it. If my side has 8 or 9 points though, I'm bringing my partner along. He could always have the ace or a trump to match up with that green jack and make march for your team. The four jack hand generally won't make more than 1 point unless you're euchring the opponent with it.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:12 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:13 pm
Another:
Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_10-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)
Similar but different than the other hands!?
I call. Not gonna take the chance of a spade call closing out the game.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:33 am
I would pick it up too.
Let's sweeten the urge to pass with this hand:

Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_J-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)

I would pick it up with this hand as well.
Can you think of any hand where you have an "Edge Hand", Seat 4, Round 1, Score 9-8; that you should not pick up?
I pass that hand. We now have a euchre hand, approx 2 tricks in every suit. Calling marginal (Right + 1 small trump with nothing else and getting euchred up 9-8 seems tragic when we have such a strong holding should be pass. Remember when we pass we still have 2 chances to win the game. The first chance when we have a great shot to win with our euchre hand, and if they do score a point, we get a 2nd chance with approx 35% equity. If we call we only get 1 chance to win with a very marginal holding.

Richardb02
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:49 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:12 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:33 am
I would pick it up too.
Let's sweeten the urge to pass with this hand:

Score You 9 Opponents 8, Right + 1!
Players Average
Up (Card_10-H) You are the Dealer
(Card_J-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_J-H)

I would pick it up with this hand as well.
Can you think of any hand where you have an "Edge Hand", Seat 4, Round 1, Score 9-8; that you should not pick up?
I pass that hand. We now have a euchre hand, approx 2 tricks in every suit. Calling marginal (Right + 1 small trump with nothing else and getting euchred up 9-8 seems tragic when we have such a strong holding should be pass. Remember when we pass we still have 2 chances to win the game. The first chance when we have a great shot to win with our euchre hand, and if they do score a point, we get a 2nd chance with approx 35% equity. If we call we only get 1 chance to win with a very marginal holding.
Good points. Let me add, you trust your partner for a trick for a euchre, not just to make a call. I forgot that as I analyzed the hand. I only saw 2 tricks in my hand and stopped looking. If I had continued:
Round 1, BPS 2.00, an edge hand
Round 2, Spades or Clubs 3.00
Round 2, Diamonds 3.25
That's the difference between Wes, the advanced player, and Richard, the basic player, trying to learn the more advanced concepts of Euchre. Thanks Wes!

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