Bidding Point System (BPS) - Advanced

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Richardb02
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Bidding Point System (BPS) - Advanced

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:37 am

Here is a list of bidding considerations I intend to cover:
Euchring your opponents is fun too!
Advanced Situational Analysis:
Analyze your Round 2 hand.
Score, Relative
Behind by 3 or more
Ahead by 3 or more
Blocking Hands
2 or more Jacks, The Jack Factor
Evaluate Bowers
Euchre Hand
Evaluate Round 2
The Upside of passing
Hitting your partner
Donating
Bad hands
Low point hands

It is really just a comprehensive, but not exhaustive, checklist of factors that we should consider to improve our bidding actually playing the hand and of course winning more often. So, if a point system turns you off, you can still enjoy these discussions. Simply ignore the points and word the relative strength in some other terms.

Using points is simply an approximation of the value of a card, combination of cards, seat position, round 1 or round 2, score considerations and then as little or as much analysis of additional factors, as you want. This system assigns a value of 1 to the Right, because the Right is definitely worth 1.00 trick. It assumes 0.75 for the Left (75% chance of taking a trick), 0.50 for AKQ of trump, 0.75 for Singleton Ace Reverse Next, 0.50 for Singleton Ace Next and so forth. We can always disagree about the exact value but we enjoy 80% agreement that every card I described has relative values from highest to lowest of:
Right, Left, Singleton Ace Reverse Next, AKQ Trump and Singleton Ace Next.

The great advantage of assigning points is testing your results in your actual play! I have adjusted my BPS slowly, carefully and yet dramatically! The adjustment has happened as I have gone from learning to play, to being competitive in average competition and now dominating the average competition. I am also conversant with the very experienced and successful contributors to this forum. The BPS has worked for me. I strongly suggest that it can work for you. If you are not ready for this Advanced BPS, simply go to the post titled, Biding Point System (BPS) - Advanced.

Euchring your opponents is fun too! [Moved from Basic 3/31/19]

2.25 Points in Seat 1 or Seat 3 is a hand with a good chance of euchring your opponent. [If your partner contributes 1 point and you get your 2 points, your team earns 2 points for an euchre! Be sure to review the extra benefits from Seat 1.]

1.75 Points in Seat 2 is a hand with a good chance of euchring your opponent. Don't allow your "intuition" to convince you to bid at 1.75 points.
[BPS-Advanced will have you understand exceptions to this recommendation].

[Seat 1 is the best position where you can enjoy contemplating all the Fun Stuff" at one time]! [This is really BPS-Advanced but with 2 or even 4 points a very good possibility, you will want to enjoy these benefits now]!

1.75 to 2.75 points in Seat 1 screams for additional analysis! Evaluate the points you would have if you pass and get to bid in Round 2. If you have a stronger hand in Round 2 (using BPS as a guide), then pass. You have a good to very good chance at 2 points, by euchring your opponents, if they bid. You have a better chance of bidding and winning if your opponents pass. Heads you win and tails you win! And for a bonus, your 2nd round bid may be Alone and a chance for 4 points!
[1st Seat hands are special. There will be even more opportunities in BPS-Advanced. But, do not get in a hurry. Understand the concepts up to this point to maximize your success 80% of the time. Learn about the 20% later].

More later....
Last edited by Richardb02 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Richardb02
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:35 pm

Let's start BPS - Advanced, with an excellent example of when you should analyze your Round 2 hand.
(Card_J-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 3
(Card_9-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-S)
Where is your Call/ Pass line from Seat 3?
I called and the hands went
(Card_A-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-C)
(Card_A-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)
(Card_A-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-D)
(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-S)
(Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-H)
So we won 3-2 but you need to test at least 100 hands and as many as 400 hands to be confident that your Call/ Pass was the best decision. What would you do under the circumstances, and why?

Richardb02
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:15 pm

Lets discuss, when your should analyze your Round 2 hand, using Wes' Advanced EuchreQuiz:
18) The score is 6-6. You are the dealer.

The upcard is (Card_J-D)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_J-S)

0.50 Seat 4
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Ah
2.75 Points, exceeds 2.00 to bid from Seat 4, but look at Round 2, Call clubs:

0.50 Seat 4
0.25 Round 2
0.25 Reverse Next
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Kc
0.50 Ah
0.25 1 Void
1.00 3 Trump 2 Bosses
5.00 Points, Call Alone.

A huge difference! BUT, your opponents will probably call and you won't get to call. You continue to analyze and notice that you block Loners in the 3 remaining suits. (Blocking, Jacks and Euchre hands will be covered in more detail later). So you pass because if your opponents call, you don't lose, you probably win, if your opponents pass, you call Alone.

I suggest:
1. Calculating your Round 2 hand (which is done quickly using BPS) directs you to look into the less obvious factors. It is also a simple extension of applying BPS - Basic.
2. This is first and foremost a teaching hand to demonstrate the power of calculating Round 2. The important Advanced principles are not the main concern, at this time. At this time, review the Round 2 analysis until you are certain that you understand how to do it.

RedDuke
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:40 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:15 pm
Lets discuss, when your should analyze your Round 2 hand, using Wes' Advanced EuchreQuiz:
18) The score is 6-6. You are the dealer.

The upcard is (Card_J-D)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_J-S)

0.50 Seat 4
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Ah
2.75 Points, exceeds 2.00 to bid from Seat 4, but look at Round 2, Call clubs:

0.50 Seat 4
0.25 Round 2
0.25 Reverse Next
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Kc
0.50 Ah
0.25 1 Void
1.00 3 Trump 2 Bosses
5.00 Points, Call Alone.

A huge difference! BUT, your opponents will probably call and you won't get to call. You continue to analyze and notice that you block Loners in the 3 remaining suits. (Blocking, Jacks and Euchre hands will be covered in more detail later). So you pass because if your opponents call, you don't lose, you probably win, if your opponents pass, you call Alone.

I suggest:
1. Calculating your Round 2 hand (which is done quickly using BPS) directs you to look into the less obvious factors. It is also a simple extension of applying BPS - Basic.
2. This is first and foremost a teaching hand to demonstrate the power of calculating Round 2. The important Advanced principles are not the main concern, at this time. At this time, review the Round 2 analysis until you are certain that you understand how to do it.
The thing about this hand is that you're almost guaranteed the euchre if you pass here and someone else calls. Because nobody can call diamonds, you're literally holding the top two cards in every remaining suit! The weakest thing that you'd have to worry about would be the next call, in which case you've got two tricks, but you'd have to lean on your partner for a third. Maybe that king of clubs would walk though.

If you pick up, you've got two boss trumps and a side ace. This is seriously a tough call, especially because as you correctly point out, you most likely won't be able to try that clubs loner. Although, this partly depends on your opponents. I've noticed that many people are extremely reluctant to call if they aren't holding at least one jack. If these are the players in your game, you've got a decent shot at getting the call passed the whole way around again. If first seat actually has a clue what he's doing though, he's going to call something just to stop the reverse next loner from second seat or the dealer.

I forget what Wes recommended in the euchre quiz. When I'm looking at this, I'd say you've got a 80%+ chance of making a point by picking up. If you want more than one point though, you're better off passing and either trying for the euchre or going alone.

Richardb02
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:30 am

Here is question 18 and Wes' recommendation:
18) The score is 6-6. You are the dealer.

The upcard is (Card_J-D)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_J-S)

ANSWER: Pass. You have a super strong euchre hand plus a club loner in the 2nd round. Calling in the first round and trying to fight for a point would be a great opportunity wasted.
Wes introduced the term,, "Euchre Hand." This hand not only blocks all 3 suits from a 4 point score, this hand has the power to euchre a call in all 3 suits! When I first read Wes' term, my first thought, as usual, is how rarely do you see a hand like this? It must be 1 in 2,000?! Just guessing. My point is that this hand is rare and is "Uber-Advanced," just like many of Wes' posts. I wanted a more general indicator that flagged more common hands. Evaluate your Round 2 hand meets the purpose.

So, for folks that aren't Uber-Advanced, start with evaluating your Round 2 hand. (This is a very useful and powerful technique from Seat 1)! Then if you have a Round 2 hand evaluated at 4 or 4.25 points, consider advancing your game and looking for 4 points instead of fighting for a single point.

Richardb02
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:57 pm

(Card_A-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 1
(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-D)
Round 1 Calcs:
0.25 Seat 1
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.25 Ts
0.50 Ac
0.25 1 Void
1.00 3 Trump, 2 Boss
4.00 Points, 4.00 & up call Alone, but notice Td is weak to earn 4 points

Round 2 Calcs (If Dealer calls, I have a probable euchre)
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Seat 2
0.75 Next
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Ac
0.25 Void
1.00 3 Trump, 2 Boss
4.75 Points

Inexplicably, I called Spades. Dealer had 3 trump, AQ9, so Dealer trumped my Ac. I got 1 point.
If I had passed, I had a lock to euchre and earn 2 points.
(If I were the Dealer with AQ9 trump, I would have called, and been euchred).
Waiting until Round 2 to call would have been a stronger play.
I failed to see that the Qd impacted both my Round 1 and Round 2 hands equally!
I failed to trust the BPS.
I lost at least 1 an possibly 3 points.

Comments, observations, where is your edge on passing?

RedDuke
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:57 pm
(Card_A-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 1
(Card_J-S) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-D)
Round 1 Calcs:
0.25 Seat 1
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.25 Ts
0.50 Ac
0.25 1 Void
1.00 3 Trump, 2 Boss
4.00 Points, 4.00 & up call Alone, but notice Td is weak to earn 4 points

Round 2 Calcs (If Dealer calls, I have a probable euchre)
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Seat 2
0.75 Next
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Ac
0.25 Void
1.00 3 Trump, 2 Boss
4.75 Points

Inexplicably, I called Spades. Dealer had 3 trump, AQ9, so Dealer trumped my Ac. I got 1 point.
If I had passed, I had a lock to euchre and earn 2 points.
(If I were the Dealer with AQ9 trump, I would have called, and been euchred).
Waiting until Round 2 to call would have been a stronger play.
I failed to see that the Qd impacted both my Round 1 and Round 2 hands equally!
I failed to trust the BPS.
I lost at least 1 an possibly 3 points.

Comments, observations, where is your edge on passing?
From Seat 1, always pass if you have a viable hand in both the turn suit and next. In this case, if you pass and the dealer picks up, you're holding the top two trump, a third trump, and a side ace. That's a pretty darn good hand to euchre someone with!

If everybody passes, you get first pick at the trump suit. You're literally holding the top three trump in next so you call that. That hand has the advantage of literally not being euchreable! You could even try this one as a loner. It's highly unlikely to succeed if your enemy is paying attention, but it's still good for a point. This is probably going to be a one-point hand no matter how it's played since one of your opponents is probably holding the Ace-Diamonds but still.

The basic rule is that you always pass from first seat if you have a good hand in both the turn suit and next!

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:09 am

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 pm
From Seat 1, always pass if you have a viable hand in both the turn suit and next. In this case, if you pass and the dealer picks up, you're holding the top two trump, a third trump, and a side ace. That's a pretty darn good hand to euchre someone with!

If everybody passes, you get first pick at the trump suit. You're literally holding the top three trump in next so you call that. That hand has the advantage of literally not being euchreable! You could even try this one as a loner. It's highly unlikely to succeed if your enemy is paying attention, but it's still good for a point. This is probably going to be a one-point hand no matter how it's played since one of your opponents is probably holding the Ace-Diamonds but still.

The basic rule is that you always pass from first seat if you have a good hand in both the turn suit and next!
Generally true. Problem is, with this hand we have a better loner in the first round than the 2nd round, and I wanna go alone here. But yeah if we're not going alone then waiting til the 2nd round is a must. But at a neutral score (JJX)+(Ace)+(garbage card) = LETS DO THIS!!!

That said, only math can prove that going alone in the first round is better than passing and calling in the 2nd round. I think it is tho. Both strategies usually will end in 1 point, but going alone in the first sometimes nets you 4, and the advantage of waiting til the 2nd round--getting a chance to euchre the dealer should he call--is minimal becuz it's just not likely to happen very often given the cards you hold. The other advantage to waiting and calling in the 2nd round is you can never get euchred but you will so rarely get euchred on that first round loner that this advantage is minimal also.

Richardb02
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:36 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:09 am
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 pm

The basic rule is that you always pass from first seat if you have a good hand in both the turn suit and next!
Generally true. Problem is, with this hand we have a better loner in the first round than the 2nd round, and I wanna go alone here. But yeah if we're not going alone then waiting til the 2nd round is a must. But at a neutral score (JJX)+(Ace)+(garbage card) = LETS DO THIS!!!

That said, only math can prove that going alone in the first round is better than passing and calling in the 2nd round.
So my take aways:
"The basic rule is that you always pass from first seat if you have a good hand in both the turn suit and next!"

and
"Problem is, with this hand we have a better loner in the first round than the 2nd round, and I wanna go alone here."

Wes' point jogged my memory. The Round 1 hand was stronger for a Loner than the Round 2 hand. Please note that the BPS calculation does not reflect that the hand is stronger for a Round 1 Loner than a Round 2 Loner! Does that mean that the BPS sucks? No, emphatically no! The BPS is at its best when you have "Average Distribution." Three Boss Trump and Loner calls in both Round 1 & 2 is not average distribution. Any time you are considering a Loner, you do not have average distribution. Considering a Loner is the edge where you need to apply your human skills. The BPS points you in the right decision. You need to continue your analysis.

The strength of BPS is those close calls between call and pass. The BPS finds the "edge" on the majority of hands, very quickly.

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