Ordering Up From Third Seat

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RedDuke
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Ordering Up From Third Seat

Post by RedDuke » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:52 pm

We all know that ordering the dealer up from third seat is a dangerous proposition. As such, you need to have a very strong hand to even try. I'm curious though what you all think is needed to order up.

This came up in a game I was playing earlier today. I'm in third seat holding this:

(Card_K-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_A-H)

Upcard is the (Card_Q-H) .

First two seats passed and it came to me. I had to take a few minutes to figure out how to play this. Yes, I have four trumps, but I'd be ordering one up to the dealer and if my partner is void in trumps then I could be in real trouble if I call.

Ultimately, I pass. This would be pretty much a no brainer call from any other position, but I could also see this going very badly. Plus, with my holding, I figured that they aren't going to be making more than one point at best and my partner has first order if dealer turns down (which I thought was pretty likely).

What actually happened is that dealer also passed, my partner calls a weak clubs hand and we end up making a point.

The score was 3-1 here in our favor, so I didn't think trying the hail mary loner made sense.

I'm curious though, do you guys think I made the right call or would you have ordered this?



patiencepays
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:55 pm

Post by patiencepays » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:24 pm

At 3-1 score, I'd order up. If your partner has one of the bowers or an ace in his hand and leads correctly, you make at least a sure point. You can offer almost no help if the Qh is turned down and your partner calls next. You are also looking at nothing at all to call should it pass through to you a second time. Looking at this 3rd seat hand, I'd also consider the possibility that if I pass and dealer turns it down and my partner doesn't have next, there's a reasonable chance our team could be facing a loner call in a black suit from either 2nd seat of the dealer.

I'm also thinking a call of hearts from you would have been a lesser risk making hearts here, than your partner was making trump make a thin black suit. Crossing suit color in 1st with a thin hand is usually a very dangerous call.

No, no loner call here. With a 3-1 lead, a little partner help here to get 2 will have the opps comfortably behind 5-1. Patiencepays is my motto. A little smarts goes a long way too. lol

RedDuke
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:39 pm

I'm also thinking a call of hearts from you would have been a lesser risk making hearts here, than your partner was making trump make a thin black suit. Crossing suit color in 1st with a thin hand is usually a very dangerous call.
True, but I also had an aggressive partner that would have called if he had anything. Because of that, I figured that he didn't have any red bowers. If they were in the opposition's hands then it's not looking all that good for my call.

As the hand played out, my partner was indeed void in hearts. He couldn't have led me trump then, which is a real problem on a third seat call.
I'd also consider the possibility that if I pass and dealer turns it down and my partner doesn't have next, there's a reasonable chance our team could be facing a loner call in a black suit from either 2nd seat of the dealer.
True, but unless your partner has everything blocked, he'll never let second seat even try a loner because he'll call thin rather than risk that. That might have been why he tried the reverse next call, figuring that even if we got euchred it was better than second seat trying the loner.

Richardb02
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:15 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:52 pm
We all know that ordering the dealer up from third seat is a dangerous proposition. As such, you need to have a very strong hand to even try. I'm curious though what you all think is needed to order up.

This came up in a game I was playing earlier today. I'm in third seat holding this:

(Card_K-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_A-H)

Upcard is the (Card_Q-H) .
Please bear with me. My approach to analyzing a hand for bidding, usually gets dismissed out of hand, before it is considered.
0.0 is the value for your Seat 3 position
0.5 is the value for your (Card_A-H) , A of trump
0.5 is the value for your (Card_K-H) , K of trump
0.25 is the value for your (Card_10-H) , 10 of trump
0.25 is the value for your (Card_9-H) , 9 of trump
0.75 is the value of 3 voids (0.25 per void + 0.25 bonus for 2 voids)
0.50 is the value of any 3 trumps
0.25 is the value of the 4th trump
3.00 is the value of your hand
2.75 has been my tested point of bidding, so I would bid

In my approach, the Right has a value of 1.0, a definite trick
Every other value is a "guesstimate" of its relative value
You still need to analyze the hand.
You don't stop thinking and trust the system.
I can see that 2 Bowers and Ac can euchre my hand, especially from Seat 3.
I also see me getting the lead, drawing trump and taking 3 tricks by myself.
It is a tough decision. You and my system are in agreement.
Let's analyze the system.

Euchre is a game of chance. So 2.0 points means that you have a strong enough hand to take 2 tricks, but it is not guaranteed. 2.5 points gives you a cushion, to comfortably take 2 tricks. You count on your partner for the 3rd trick. So you would bid, in general. You then adjust based on other factors. At my competition level (weak to average) , I found that 2.5 points was unsatisfactory (getting euchred more than 20% of the time, probably too often for my competition level). So 2.75% is my current level to bid (if other considerations are not worthwhile, which is the case in my world). RedDuke is confident that his partner is aggressive (and skilled) and would have bid under the circumstances. I suggest that adding 0.25 to the "normal" 2.5 points to bid, still compensates for his reasonable assumption. So bidding, for Reduke, would also make sense taking his partner into consideration. Looking deeper, into the possibilities, an Alone is not a consideration until I have 3.75 points in my hand. 3.75 points gives me a comfortable chance of taking 3 tricks. So going alone is not a reasonable play for this hand. I could continue to analyze (especially after Wes' Advanced Quiz) but nothing stands out as worthy of consideration.

So, summing up this long post, call/bid, you have a decent 1 point hand. You also have nothing but conjecture to gain by passing. If you are in doubt, then add this factor, bidding is preferable to sand bagging (with exceptions). So I recommend bidding with this hand and situation.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:14 am

patiencepays wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:24 pm
At 3-1 score, I'd order up. If your partner has one of the bowers or an ace in his hand and leads correctly, you make at least a sure point. You can offer almost no help if the Qh is turned down and your partner calls next. You are also looking at nothing at all to call should it pass through to you a second time. Looking at this 3rd seat hand, I'd also consider the possibility that if I pass and dealer turns it down and my partner doesn't have next, there's a reasonable chance our team could be facing a loner call in a black suit from either 2nd seat of the dealer.

I'm also thinking a call of hearts from you would have been a lesser risk making hearts here, than your partner was making trump make a thin black suit. Crossing suit color in 1st with a thin hand is usually a very dangerous call.

No, no loner call here. With a 3-1 lead, a little partner help here to get 2 will have the opps comfortably behind 5-1. Patiencepays is my motto. A little smarts goes a long way too. lol
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:15 pm
So, summing up this long post, call/bid, you have a decent 1 point hand. You also have nothing but conjecture to gain by passing.
The above pretty much sums it up for me. Red Duke, I find you guilty in the first degree of overthinking this situation. Worthy of note, the actual results of your hand...
What actually happened is that dealer also passed, my partner calls a weak clubs hand and we end up making a point.


...points to a euchre truth: Although passing a hand you should bid on is a cardinal sin, it's actually a very small mistake when you do this from 3rd seat, 1st round due to the fact that you could get lucky and have the dealer pick up anyways, or get bailed out by your partner in the 2nd round. This dynamic is yet another reason we should play very tight from 3rd seat, 1st round. And I would tell anyone, if you have a hand in the 3rd seat, 1st round and you're not sure whether to call or pass, always err on the side of passing. Whereas when it comes to 1st seat, 2nd round I would tell them if you're not sure, call something dammit! Becuz if someone passes biddables from that spot he will destroy your team.

That said, there are certainly situations where passing with 4 trump in 3rd should at least should be considered.

Here's a recent game where I passed 4 trump from the 3rd spot:

My team was down 9-8. The upcard was the (Card_J-C)

I had (Card_J-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-H)

The dealer was very aggressive, if he has just one other club he's gonna pick up and that's pretty much ball game. My team wins. Notice also, I had a beautiful hand to help out a Next call. So if the dealer passes, my team is still in pretty decent shape. I actually think with no reads one should always pass in the above situation, although you would certainly call if you had a poor partner who will pass on 9. Actual results: Dealer picked up and died a noble death.

jblowery
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:06 pm

I'd definitely order. If you have 4 trump there are only 3 left split between the 3 other people and the downpile. There are a lot of things that can happen but as soon as you get the lead (trick #1) you are almost certainly going to suck whatever trump your opponents have and then you take the last 2 tricks. Your partner could also have the rt bower or ace(s).

If your partner calls next you have nothing to help him with.

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