Lead or save the right?

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Fran
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 10:56 am

Lead or save the right?

Post by Fran » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 pm

Here is a hand I recently played. I dealt and turned up a (Card_10-D)

Here was what I had in my hand at the time.

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C)

Everyone else had passed and so I gathered the 10 and dumped the 9 of clubs. The person in first led a small spade allowing me to make my ace good. At that point, I was unsure and had to decide what to do next. My partner said that I led the wrong card.

In a situation such as this, would leading the right or would the club be the better move?



RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:24 pm

Fran wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 pm
Here is a hand I recently played. I dealt and turned up a (Card_10-D)

Here was what I had in my hand at the time.

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-C)

Everyone else had passed and so I gathered the 10 and dumped the 9 of clubs. The person in first led a small spade allowing me to make my ace good. At that point, I was unsure and had to decide what to do next. My partner said that I led the wrong card.

In a situation such as this, would leading the right or would the club be the better move?
Lead the right to clear out the trump. You don't have any more aces to make good, but what you're trying to do is allow your partner to make the Ace of Clubs good (if they have it). If you're lucky, this will also make the king of trump boss.

irishwolf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:29 am

Not so fast. What was played by 2nd & 3rd to the trick? If someone sloughed a club, it makes a difference. Whats the score, situation, etc.? Okay, lead the right (pard has none - 24% chance), and now the 9C. Third has the AC, now dealer is in a squeeze with a spade or club, the left or ace will over trump. If opponents each have two trumps - you are screwed. You still have to win one more trick with the 9S? Point is, you have to have all the facts given. Is eldest trigger happy? Half guaranteed (50%) one of those opponents has two trumps, and one is bigger than your king. Shooting from the hip is not wise.
A safer route is hold the bower to protect the lower trumps to avoid trouble. Let eldest win the trick and have to come back into you for a sure point - without knowing more facts.

"Everyone else had passed cards and so I gathered the 10 and dumped the 9 of clubs. The person in first led a small spade allowing me to make my ace good. At that point, I was unsure and had to decide what to do next. My partner said that I led the wrong card."
What did you lead and why did he/she say that? You can't answer by just what was in that hand but across the distribution of cards - statistically.

In a situation such as this, would leading the right or would the club be the better move?

irishwolf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:36 am

Fran,
So now that are you going to do - two different opinions?
And both are correct under different conditions. Hint: How good are the players? What was played, did someone slough an off suit (might have left guarded, being conservative)? Do need one point or way behind - then you should have gone alone with that hand. Body language, many factors.

Fran
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 10:56 am

Post by Fran » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:12 pm

While one must look at every hand individually, I was hoping for some type of a general consensus on hands where you take the first trick with an ace or a trump. Many times you still hold a right. These hands come up quite often and I’m always wondering what’s best. Do I risk pulling my partner's trump?

In the hand I was referring to, my partner complained that had I not led the right, he would have been able to use his only trump on a club lead. This may have given us an extra point.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:51 pm

Fran wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:12 pm
While one must look at every hand individually, I was hoping for some type of a general consensus on hands where you take the first trick with an ace or a trump. Many times you still hold a right. These hands come up quite often and I’m always wondering what’s best. Do I risk pulling my partner's trump?

In the hand I was referring to, my partner complained that had I not led the right, he would have been able to use his only trump on a club lead. This may have given us an extra point.
Sure, but how did you know that he was void in clubs? You wouldn't have. It would have been just as likely that one of your opponents had a clubs and void and could have taken that with a low trump. You have to make the call with what you know, which if you're the dealer is the location of only six cards.

If your off card was an ace then you absolutely lead the right because you're trying to pull the trumps out of the opponents' hands in order to improve the chances of that Ace getting through. It's a harder call when you don't have anything that's likely to take a trick except a trump (which is the case here).

In this hand, you were still holding three trump even after taking the first trick. You have a guaranteed second trick in your hand with the right. The king of trump will also probably take a trick. It absolutely will if you can pull the left and the ace. Since there's only four trump in the wild, you've got a good chance to take three of them by leading the right. The other way to make the king good is to pass the lead to your left hand opponent so that you get final play on the next trick. That can be best accomplished by leading the 10 of clubs. It's really a toss up which one to try.

Where you get into trouble here is if one of your opponents has three trumps. Really though, the hand you're holding has a good chance to take three tricks on its own. That's why you might want to consider going alone on the hand.

Richardb02
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:56 pm

Fran wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:12 pm
While one must look at every hand individually, I was hoping for some type of a general consensus on hands where you take the first trick with an ace or a trump. Many times you still hold a right. These hands come up quite often and I’m always wondering what’s best. Do I risk pulling my partner's trump?

In the hand I was referring to, my partner complained that had I not led the right, he would have been able to use his only trump on a club lead. This may have given us an extra point.
I appreciate RedDuke and IrishWolf immensely, for sharing their very deep insights into the finer points of the game. Thank you RD & IW. Many times though, I also find their explanations too deep for my limited knowledge and explanations.

Let me share my approach to your question. I started with exploring Ohio Euchres information. It was buried very deeply in the "Tips" section. Your can get there very quickly by clicking on:
https://ohioeuchre.com/E_What-card-should-I-lead-2.php

Unfortunately, you won't find a good fit to your question. So what do you do next? I read all 7 Parts of the tips, in the section,"What do I lead"? Based on your experience, distill what you can learn and then re-read RD & IW. (You will be investing a chunk of time to do all of this.) Then explain what you have learned at your level of understanding.

What did I glean from investing an hour or so by following my own advice? You have 3 trump left. That means you are strong in trump, having 3 trump. Your hand is even stronger, you have the right. You don't know what your partner has in their hand. (You don't know, what you don't know). Play from your strength. Lead the Right and draw trump. When you are strong in trump (3 trump or more) and especially if your are very strong in trump (3 trump with a bower), lead your bower. Playing from strength is the general recommendation (that I suggest will be best at least 80% of the time [the Pareto Principle]). That is my recommendation based on my level of expertise. It applies to life in general as well as to strategies in general.

RedDuke's explanation adds more insight to my recommendation, his post is focused on what works 80% of the time.

IrishWolf's post addresses what should be considered the other 20% of the time.
His posts tells you what to look for after you have achieved a greater skill level.

RD and IW are sharing their vast experiences with us. (As well as Don Lund, the creator of Ohio Euchre). And let me add Wes, the Legend, his thread offering us the Advanced Euchre Quiz was outstanding! We owe them a great deal of gratitude for sharing their expertise to make us better Euchre players and to make Euchre a more satisfying experience.

Our responsibility is to play the best that we can, wherever we are in this wonderful game of Euchre.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:01 pm

Fran wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:12 pm
What did I glean from investing an hour or so by following my own advice? You have 3 trump left. That means you are strong in trump, having 3 trump. Your hand is even stronger, you have the right. You don't know what your partner has in their hand. (You don't know, what you don't know). Play from your strength. Lead the Right and draw trump. When you are strong in trump (3 trump or more) and especially if your are very strong in trump (3 trump with a bower), lead your bower. Playing from strength is the general recommendation (that I suggest will be best at least 80% of the time [the Pareto Principle]). That is my recommendation based on my level of expertise. It applies to life in general as well as to strategies in general.

RedDuke's explanation adds more insight to my recommendation, his post is focused on what works 80% of the time.

IrishWolf's post addresses what should be considered the other 20% of the time.
His posts tells you what to look for after you have achieved a greater skill level.

RD and IW are sharing their vast experiences with us. (As well as Don Lund, the creator of Ohio Euchre). And let me add Wes, the Legend, his thread offering us the Advanced Euchre Quiz was outstanding! We owe them a great deal of gratitude for sharing their expertise to make us better Euchre players and to make Euchre a more satisfying experience.

Our responsibility is to play the best that we can, wherever we are in this wonderful game of Euchre.
A quick and easy rule of thumb that will be right probably around 95% of the time. Whenever you call it and you have the lead with 3 trump or you get the lead and you still have 3 trump left, always play trump no matter what those 3 trump are. It's just so critical to try to eliminate two trump from your enemy with one lead thus preventing them from possibly picking your team apart during the hand, each trumping in at different times. A lot of euchres happen that way.

But pay attention to what IrishWolf said about the exception to this general strategy. Those times when you have 9 and just need 1 point for victory, it may be safer to not lead trump and instead play a garbage card hoping the guy on your left gets the lead thus setting you up for a nice game winning end play. With that said, if you're in a game and not sure what to do "always lead with 3" should be your default.

Also, this hand is a marginal loner. Consider trying it (obviously not when your team has 8 or 9 points). I go alone with this type of hand a lot from the dealer spot or from seat 1, 2nd rd. It rarely gets euchred, and it gets 4 points often enough, especially when your enemy leads spades and your Ace walks. Now they'll be holding onto spades til the end for dear life assuming youre double suited, often throwing away clubs in the process promoting your baby club loser to a triumphant winner!

That said, I'm still not sure if going alone has a higher EV than calling. My experience with this holding certainly has not clarified that issue, but when it's close/debatable I tend to veer on the side of gamble gamble! One thing I am confident of: as Irishwolf pointed out, if your team is down some points going alone now becomes paramount to try to get your team back into the game.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:24 am

Also, this hand is a marginal loner. Consider trying it (obviously not when your team has 8 or 9 points). I go alone with this type of hand a lot from the dealer spot or from seat 1, 2nd rd. It rarely gets euchred, and it gets 4 points often enough, especially when your enemy leads spades and your Ace walks. Now they'll be holding onto spades til the end for dear life assuming youre double suited, often throwing away clubs in the process promoting your baby club loser to a triumphant winner!
What would you call for this hand in the second round if you're trying a loner? Would you try a next call and pray that your left bower walks? You mention trying this as a 1st seat, 2nd round loner, but if diamonds is the upcard then I can't see any other suit that's good for that.

I do agree that it's a good first round loner from the dealer spot. The only way you could really get into trouble here is if someone has the left+ace or even worse, if they have the guarded left plus the Ace of Clubs. It's a fairly unlikely scenario for an opponent to have all three of those cards. As you said too, the opponents will probably assume that you're holding a diamonds-spades two-suited hand. If you save the club until the end, it might walk.

irishwolf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:33 pm

FRAN,

Like I said above, every card is important. He sloughed a club because he was doing '2nd hand low' (in appropriate use of the concept and makes no sense that he/she should play like that with one trump, unless it is the Right - that would be OBSTRUCTING), but if he had only one trump that would have been pretty dumb to hold it. You could do with two trumps. Here, you have to know how your partner plays. Is he likely do this or trump - that is you key in knowing what to lead to trick 2. One has to consider all factors and play accordingly. You have to know your partners tenancies Know your partner first. First principle is DON'T FOOL YOUR PARTNER! 2ND IS WHO IS THE CAPTAIN? - Mutinous to steal the Captain's authority by holding the single trump for later in the hand.

Curiously, what else did he hold, and what was the size of his trump? You have to ask, "What's the logic and strategy?" He/she is helping the enemy, IMO.

What would you do if the dealer only had Right plus 1 and no off aces for the other two cards?

GO FIGURE!

"In the hand I was referring to, my partner complained that had I not led the right, he would have been able to use his only trump on a club lead. This may have given us an extra point."

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:50 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:24 am
What would you call for this hand in the second round if you're trying a loner? Would you try a next call and pray that your left bower walks? You mention trying this as a 1st seat, 2nd round loner, but if diamonds is the upcard then I can't see any other suit that's good for that.
I was just referring to the hand configuration itself:

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C)

As dealer I would go alone with that. I would also go alone with that in seat 1, 2nd rd if the enemy turned down a heart. With a bad loser card it's a little more dicey to go alone from the 2 spot in the 2nd round, even if your partner turned down a black card (preferably a spade), due to the fact that you don't close the action making the loner sweep intrinsically harder to convert already. The above scenarios assumes a neutral score.

If my team is down a bit, then I'll go alone from seat 1, 2nd rd even if my enemy turned down a black card (in this case I would hope they turned down a club since now it's more likely they aren't rich in my loser suit), and I'll go alone from the 2 seat (first round or 2nd round), and 3rd seat, 2nd round, and 3rd seat, 1st round--which means we're giving the dealer some other diamond--If my team is down 9-6/9-7, I.E. hail mary time.

Richardb02
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 am

(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C)

If the score is neutral.
I'm in Seat 3.
2nd round. Dealer turned down a heart.

I would go Diamonds Alone. I see 3 near certain tricks and a probable 4th. So all I have to lose, by playing alone, is a possible 2nd point. I prefer to play alone from Seat 3 because most Seat 1 partners won't lead trump (on line or community games). I like the psychological effects of going alone from Seat 3. It pumps me up and deflates Opponent.

I don't think we have to wait for Hail Mary time with this hand. If, arguably, you have a 1/3 chance of getting 2 points by bidding partnered. That is worth 0.33 point (1/3 x 1 pt). If, again arguably, you have just an 11% chance (my experience suggests 10 to 15%) of making 4 points then that is worth 0.33 (11% x 3 pts). Some one else recommended, "when in doubt, gamble, gamble!"

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 am
(Card_J-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C)

If the score is neutral.
I'm in Seat 3.
2nd round. Dealer turned down a heart.

I would go Diamonds Alone. I see 3 near certain tricks and a probable 4th. So all I have to lose, by playing alone, is a possible 2nd point.
I think that's fine. 3rd seat, 2nd round isn't nearly as scary as 3rd seat, 1st rd. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to know the magical cutoff point here. Like I've talked about before, this is one of those edge hands I wish we could simulate a million times and find out what's best.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 am
I prefer to play alone from Seat 3 because most Seat 1 partners won't lead trump (on line or community games).

Yeah, if you have a bad partner that doesn't lead trump then go alone for sure.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 am
I like the psychological effects of going alone from Seat 3. It pumps me up and deflates Opponent.
I like this. My motto is I don't want people to respect me, I want them to fear me, including my partners!
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 am
I don't think we have to wait for Hail Mary time with this hand. If, arguably, you have a 1/3 chance of getting 2 points by bidding partnered. That is worth 0.33 point (1/3 x 1 pt). If, again arguably, you have just an 11% chance (my experience suggests 10 to 15%) of making 4 points then that is worth 0.33 (11% x 3 pts). Some one else recommended, "when in doubt, gamble, gamble!"
3rd seat, 1st round is so tough to convert with a marginal loner that I think this hand can only be applied in hail marry situations or when down a lot. Also if youre against a really good team that knows the convention on how to stop a 1st rd, 3rd seat loner, then seriously fuhgeddaboudit except when you're super desperate.

In case you're wondering what the convention is here's the quote from this site:
Lone calls from third seat

If the lone is called from the third seat, as the dealer you should try to discard next, assuming it is a singleton. The idea here is to create a void in next. Concurrently your partner should lead next if possible. In this case only, a single ace lead in next is the correct play. This way you will have the chance to trump next. If the bidder overtrump's, he will need to use a higher trump. This may put you, or your partner in a position to stop the lone.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:34 am

I think that's fine. 3rd seat, 2nd round isn't nearly as scary as 3rd seat, 1st rd. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to know the magical cutoff point here. Like I've talked about before, this is one of those edge hands I wish we could simulate a million times and find out what's best.
There's also the very high probability here that the left is buried or otherwise won't be in play during the loner. Dealer turned down a heart. He probably doesn't have the jack or he would have picked up for the right+1. His partner might have it, but he probably doesn't have it plus another heart (although he might have a guarded left). It's pretty unlikely that you'll be euchred by trying this alone in next.
Yeah, if you have a bad partner that doesn't lead trump then go alone for sure.
Is it as critical to lead trump on a second round call? The main reason to lead trump on a first round call is the assumption that your partner has at least one bower. In other words, that the dealer won't be able to over trump the maker in the trump suit. The risk of this is higher than normal because the dealer got to create a void. This isn't the case on a second round call. Yes, leading trump is still generally a good idea because you're betting that your team has more trump than the enemy but it's not as absolutely critical.
I think that's fine. 3rd seat, 2nd round isn't nearly as scary as 3rd seat, 1st rd. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to know the magical cutoff point here. Like I've talked about before, this is one of those edge hands I wish we could simulate a million times and find out what's best.
Third seat second round is comparable to a second seat second round loner in that you play between your enemies on that critical first trick. The dealer loses a lot of his advantage during the second round.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:19 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:34 am
Yeah, if you have a bad partner that doesn't lead trump then go alone for sure.
Is it as critical to lead trump on a second round call? The main reason to lead trump on a first round call is the assumption that your partner has at least one bower. In other words, that the dealer won't be able to over trump the maker in the trump suit. The risk of this is higher than normal because the dealer got to create a void. This isn't the case on a second round call. Yes, leading trump is still generally a good idea because you're betting that your team has more trump than the enemy but it's not as absolutely critical.
I mean, you could say it's not as critical as 3rd seat, 1st Rd, but then it's just a matter of degrees. On a 2nd round call you're still not closing the action, and thus can still get over-trumped. Things are less likely to go awry if you get the lead right away. A partner leading trump is still the best remedy here.

Plus, it's always good for your team's prospects to possibly get two enemy trump out with one lead, which is why the conventional strategy is to always lead trump when your partner calls--if it hasn't been lead yet--whenever you have the lead or whenever you get the lead, unless you have an action read that suggests your partner is weak, and you have a hand that wouldn't benefit from a trump lead itself.
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:34 am
Third seat second round is comparable to a second seat second round loner in that you play between your enemies on that critical first trick. The dealer loses a lot of his advantage during the second round.
Correct. My hypothesis is that a marginal loner from the dealer spot, like the one we're talking about will probably swing to -EV at neutral scores compared to just calling if we now don't close the action like 3rd seat, 2nd round, 2nd seat 2nd round, and 2nd seat, first rd. Interesting to note, on the most popular euchre app this discussion would be moot becuz when you go alone you always get last action as if you were the dealer.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 pm

Plus, it's always good for your team's prospects to possibly get two enemy trump out with one lead, which is why the conventional strategy is to always lead trump when your partner calls--if it hasn't been lead yet--whenever you have the lead or whenever you get the lead, unless you have an action read that suggests your partner is weak, and you have a hand that wouldn't benefit from a trump lead itself.
Correct. The general assumption is that if your partner calls, you're going to be stronger than the enemy in trump. Thus, a trump lead will more likely than not deplete them or severely weaken their prospects to euchre you. With any other suit, you don't know if they have voids that could result in your Ace getting trumped.
Correct. My hypothesis is that a marginal loner from the dealer spot, like the one we're talking about will probably swing to -EV at neutral scores compared to just calling if we now don't close the action like 3rd seat, 2nd round, 2nd seat 2nd round, and 2nd seat, first rd. Interesting to note, on the most popular euchre app this discussion would be moot becuz when you go alone you always get last action as if you were the dealer.
And I've pulled off some seriously marginal loners from third seat using that app (I'm thinking things like Left+4 kings on a next loner after dealer passed on the right). Having last play is a huge advantage on loners and it's why the dealer is generally the strongest position to call a loner from. Some may argue that first seat is though, but you need to have a bit more strength there because there's still the risk of being overtrumped if you don't lead the right and have most of the boss cards. Dealer can often make loners with weaker holdings.

Even with that rule in play on the App though, people don't call loners anywhere near as much as they should until you start getting into the top ranked players.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:39 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 pm
And I've pulled off some seriously marginal loners from third seat using that app (I'm thinking things like Left+4 kings on a next loner after dealer passed on the right). Having last play is a huge advantage on loners and it's why the dealer is generally the strongest position to call a loner from. Some may argue that first seat is though, but you need to have a bit more strength there because there's still the risk of being overtrumped if you don't lead the right and have most of the boss cards. Dealer can often make loners with weaker holdings.
I agree. Always having the dealer position on a loner is HUGE.
RedDuke wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 pm
Even with that rule in play on the App though, people don't call loners anywhere near as much as they should until you start getting into the top ranked players.
Yeah I think there's two big reasons why like 99% of people don't play euchre that well:

1) It's just a game. They enjoy it, but they have more important things to do than to try to master a card game.

2) People fear looking dumb. If they get euchred they generally feel shame, even embarrassed. This holds them back big time from making the necessary marginal plays that can take them to the next level. I.E. they pass too much, don't go alone enough. They play it safe. If they don't get the cards, and pass to a loss, that's just bad luck, most importantly they didn't do anything "stupid". They lost gracefully.

The huge irony of course is that the highest frequency of euchres you'll ever see would be watching a game with 4 experts. Top players intuitively understand the concept of making -EV calls becuz passing is even more -EV, a concept that is mind-boggling to 99.9% of all euchre players who just play their cards. You have to be fearless and you cannot care what anyone thinks to play this game the right way.

To give you a statistical window into what I'm talking about, here are my average stats over my last 5 accounts on that app (Every time I reach a top ranking of 100 points/5 crowns I open up another account and start over and reset my stats):

I call 38.3% of the time, and get euchred on my calls 27.3%. I go alone 8.2% of the time, and get euchred on my loners 6.0%.

I have not done a formal survey of every person who plays on that app, but based on the top players I have talked to, every one of those numbers including the euchre numbers (lol) are most likely the highest on that app. I also have 22 accounts at 100, I.E. 110 crowns, which is also the most on that app. And the average amount of games it took me to reach 100 ranking points/5 crowns over my last 5 accounts was 621 games. Any time you reach 100 ranking points in less than 1,000 games played you've done very well given that you're always playing with a random partner who is usually clueless and the "Go Under" option adds a ton of variance to the game (and thus hurts expert play significantly). My best account reached 100 ranking points/5 crowns in 371 games. That may be the best on the app. I have asked around and nobody has claimed to do better. If you ever beat that, take a screen shot and PM me cuz I won't believe it unless I see it :) .

The bottom line: It pays to be fearless and aggressive. I play a hyper-aggressive, high variance style, because I believe it's the best way to play the game of euchre, and my results strongly back me up.

RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:20 pm

I call 38.3% of the time, and get euchred on my calls 27.3%. I go alone 8.2% of the time, and get euchred on my loners 6.0%.
I just checked my own stats on it inspired by this. I have a similar call percentage as you, but fewer euchres. My lone percentage isn't anything close to that though and I've only been euchred on a loner once in just over 2200 games. That goes to show you just how important taking a chance on the loner is because I have a feeling that the reason that you managed to achieve those rankings in so few games is because you're trying a lot more loners than most.

I will say though that my ranking has gotten a lot better since I started coming to this site.

BTW, let me know if you ever want to try a few friendly games on there. I'd love to see you play, could be a good learning experience.

Richardb02
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:33 pm

I call 38.3% of the time, and get euchred on my calls 27.3%. I go alone 8.2% of the time, and get euchred on my loners 6.0%.
You are my mentor. I call 35% of the time, get euchred 15%, go alone 10% and get euchred on my loners 5.4%.Now the competition isn't anywhere near the caliber of your competition. But 3 out of 4 indicators are similar.

RedDuke identified a difference in going alone. My difference is in your 27% euchre rate vs my 15%.

I "swagged" getting euchred 20% as a goal to maximize my winning percentage. As I increased getting euchred from 15 to 18%, my winning rate dropped from the high 60%'s to the high 50%'s. My winning rate improved as I bid more carefully and reduced getting euchred to 15 or 14%.

Any guidance, not just Wes, but anyone?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:49 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:33 pm
I call 38.3% of the time, and get euchred on my calls 27.3%. I go alone 8.2% of the time, and get euchred on my loners 6.0%.
You are my mentor. I call 35% of the time, get euchred 15%, go alone 10% and get euchred on my loners 5.4%.Now the competition isn't anywhere near the caliber of your competition. But 3 out of 4 indicators are similar.

RedDuke identified a difference in going alone. My difference is in your 27% euchre rate vs my 15%.

I "swagged" getting euchred 20% as a goal to maximize my winning percentage. As I increased getting euchred from 15 to 18%, my winning rate dropped from the high 60%'s to the high 50%'s. My winning rate improved as I bid more carefully and reduced getting euchred to 15 or 14%.

Any guidance, not just Wes, but anyone?
I must say, those are rather strange numbers. If someone told me their euchred percentage was 15%, my first thought--with strong conviction--would be that that person is not calling enough. And yet, your 35% call rate looks good to me, as I strongly suspect, the optimal calling sweet spot is somewhere between 30-40%.

As far as my high euchre rate, keep in mind that I donate a lot, more than anyone I know except for 1 person on the app (his name is Scorp or some variant of that, and he always has a picture of a skunk). Naturally I think he donates too much :) but I certainly always wonder if I am too (one can never know without that mythical euchre simulator). I also make a lot of defensive calls, some highly debatable ones, that even I'm not sure about (lol).

So basically there's 3 categories of euchres:

1) You made a standard call and things didn't go your way. Either bad luck or your partner screwed up. Either way, we don't really care about these euchres becuz we can't control the universe. We'll call these bad luck euchres.

2) You donated or made a thin defensive call. These are what I would call quality euchres. You got euchred but it was for the right reasons. I believe most of my euchres fall into this group, and of course how large this group should be will be debatable til the end of time without said mythical simulator.

3) You made a call you shouldn't have made, or your call or your partner's call was correct but you made a mistake that lead to your team getting euchred. Obviously we want to minimize this category as much as possible, but we're still human.

As far as your loner percentage. I think that's close to optimal but 10% is unachievable imo on the app I play on due to the "Go Under" variation. I.E. if you or your opponents have 3 tens or nines they can exchange their cards for the cards in the kitty if the action is on them in the first round and no one has ordered ahead of them. Once they go under they lose their turn.

This rule affects the game big time. It means whenever someone goes under there are no significant buried cards in the kitty, and if one of your opponents goes under this also means they can have more trump/off aces than their normal passing range would suggest. There are several loner variations on this app that just aren't worth it if one of your opponents go under becuz they now have a stronger range and there's no buried cards.

This rule also creates a ton of variance in the game. It will often be the case that you will get euchred on a standard call precisely becuz one of your opponents undered into a much stronger hand. The go under rule also often destroys thin next/reverse next calls but you often have to make those calls anyways for defensive purposes. More variance added to the game like this = smaller edge for experts. Virtually all your calls lose value when one of your opponents go under. Some calls gain value when your partner goes under but some calls lose value even when your partner goes under. Depends on the hand.

Either way, becuz of this option, and becuz you will almost always be playing with a random partner who will usually not be very good, a win rate of even 60% is not sustainable on this app imo. Without the go under rule tho, I suspect that around 67%, especially with decent partners, would be sustainable. But I'll probably never know, becuz I'm 100% addicted to this app. It has the best interface, and the most players as far as I know. And I've tried several other apps and they just don't compare imo.

In case you're wondering. He'res the app I play on:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.karmangames.euchre&hl=en_US

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:21 am

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:20 pm
I call 38.3% of the time, and get euchred on my calls 27.3%. I go alone 8.2% of the time, and get euchred on my loners 6.0%.
I just checked my own stats on it inspired by this. I have a similar call percentage as you, but fewer euchres. My lone percentage isn't anything close to that though and I've only been euchred on a loner once in just over 2200 games. That goes to show you just how important taking a chance on the loner is because I have a feeling that the reason that you managed to achieve those rankings in so few games is because you're trying a lot more loners than most.
I remember one game I played on the app. I got euchred 5 times, 3 of those times I went alone. Not my favorite game :) But yeah, I would bet my girlfriends life you are not going alone enough if you only went set once in 2,200 games (I can never be confident enough to bet my own life. That would be crazy). Many of my loners are desperation/hail marys when my team is down, and many of them I'm pressing small edges that may or may not exist. So my first thought would be is that you are not gambling enough when your team is losing. And probably not gambling enough overall too.
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:20 pm
I will say though that my ranking has gotten a lot better since I started coming to this site.
Yep the combination of this site + experience is truly lethal to the competition. The biggest thing about the experience part is playing lots of games on an app gives you the opportunity to try different things and see how they work out. For example when I first started out on the app I was going alone way too much, trying out all kinds of crazy hands, over time I pared it down to the "reasonable" gambles. It's a lot harder to experiment in real life cuz you just can't get that many hands in. The principles laid out on this site will always be your bedrock tho.
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:20 pm
BTW, let me know if you ever want to try a few friendly games on there. I'd love to see you play, could be a good learning experience.
My name on the app right now is Wes 23. I don't usually play friendly games except with my girlfriend vs the robots. She likes doing that for some reason. But now you know who I am so eventually we will play on the same team or against each other. My avatar will usually be a picture of a blender with lots of plants in it, and when I'm online but not in a game I'll be in the lobby probably talking trash trying to annoy somebody :) All in good fun tho. After all, it's just a silly game, a game you can't even make any money at unlike poker. It would be unhealthy to take it too seriously. But that said, I'd be lying if I told you it wasn't the greatest game ever cuz it is. To me, the only candidates for greatest card games ever have to be partner games. There is just something romantic about having to depend on another person. It's not just straight up soulless competition like poker. Cooperation with your partner plays a key role too. The greatest euchre player ever ain't worth that much without a decent partner.

PS: What's your name on the app?

RedDuke
Posts: 177
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Post by RedDuke » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:21 pm

My name on the app right now is Wes 23. I don't usually play friendly games except with my girlfriend vs the robots. She likes doing that for some reason. But now you know who I am so eventually we will play on the same team or against each other. My avatar will usually be a picture of a blender with lots of plants in it, and when I'm online but not in a game I'll be in the lobby probably talking trash trying to annoy somebody :) All in good fun tho. After all, it's just a silly game, a game you can't even make any money at unlike poker. It would be unhealthy to take it too seriously. But that said, I'd be lying if I told you it wasn't the greatest game ever cuz it is. To me, the only candidates for greatest card games ever have to be partner games. There is just something romantic about having to depend on another person. It's not just straight up soulless competition like poker. Cooperation with your partner plays a key role too. The greatest euchre player ever ain't worth that much without a decent partner.

PS: What's your name on the app?
Red Duke (just like my name here but two words). I've gotten creamed a bit lately and rating has taken a beating. Even when you're dealing with players that have multiple stars or even crowns, they don't seem to get simple concepts like calling Hoyle or going alone when you've got Right+1 and three aces! Hard to believe.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:29 am

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:21 pm
Red Duke (just like my name here but two words). I've gotten creamed a bit lately and rating has taken a beating.
I once dropped 24 rating points in one day. And I can't remember exactly how many I lost in a row before but it was somewhere between 15 and 20 games straight. Sometimes you just get that lethal combo: You either get bad cards so you're destined to lose no matter what, or you get what should be the winning cards but your partner makes too many bad mistakes. Another thing that can exacerbate a bad run is your opponents seemingly always Going Under before your calls. This will make your life a lot tougher.
RedDuke wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:21 pm
Even when you're dealing with players that have multiple stars or even crowns, they don't seem to get simple concepts like calling Hoyle or going alone when you've got Right+1 and three aces! Hard to believe.
Yeah I would say rankings don't really mean that much. It's really just a matter of degrees. 90s/100s players are gonna make a lot of mistakes. They'll make less mistakes than 0-50 ranked players, but still A LOT of mistakes. It's not that people are dumb, it's just that most people don't have the time or care enough to be that great at euchre. I mean I can't blame them. It is just a silly game. Obviously I feel differently about that, but I've always had a tendency to get obsessed with trivial things. The real fun of the app is trying to get to 100 in as few games as possible. Although I'm not gonna lie, the quest can get pretty damn frustrating at times.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:27 pm

I must say, those are rather strange numbers. If someone told me their euchred percentage was 15%, my first thought--with strong conviction--would be that that person is not calling enough. And yet, your 35% call rate looks good to me, as I strongly suspect, the optimal calling sweet spot is somewhere between 30-40%.

As far as my high euchre rate, keep in mind that I donate a lot, more than anyone I know except for 1 person on the app (his name is Scorp or some variant of that, and he always has a picture of a skunk). Naturally I think he donates too much :) but I certainly always wonder if I am too (one can never know without that mythical euchre simulator). I also make a lot of defensive calls, some highly debatable ones, that even I'm not sure about (lol).

You are exactly right. My euchre rate reflects zero donating. Since you shared your Advanced Euchre Quiz I will definitely add donating as a strategy,
As far as your loner percentage. I think that's close to optimal but 10% is unachievable imo on the app I play on due to the "Go Under" variation. I.E. if you or your opponents have 3 tens or nines they can exchange their cards for the cards in the kitty if the action is on them in the first round and no one has
Again, you are exactly right. There is no “Go Under” rule or other rule that reduces the opportunity to go a lone.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:52 pm

Again, you are exactly right. There is no “Go Under” rule or other rule that reduces the opportunity to go a lone.
The big element that the "Go Under" rule introduces is that when your partner is the first person to do it in a hand then you can often call on a weaker hand than you could otherwise because there's a decent chance that they've picked up a couple trump cards.

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Post by Dlan » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:16 am

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.karmangames.euchre&hl=en_US
After downloading and playing a few games against the bots, I found it to be a straight forward and enjoyable app. However, upon trying to play online, I realized that all the games I tried to enter were using the default settings of go-under and first lead on lone call goes to the player on their left.

I wouldn’t mind playing some games with/against other members of this forum, but using traditional rules. The default settings only serve to dumb down and change the way euchre was meant to be played.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:36 pm

Dlan wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:16 am
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.karmangames.euchre&hl=en_US
After downloading and playing a few games against the bots, I found it to be a straight forward and enjoyable app. However, upon trying to play online, I realized that all the games I tried to enter were using the default settings of go-under and first lead on lone call goes to the player on their left.

I wouldn’t mind playing some games with/against other members of this forum, but using traditional rules. The default settings only serve to dumb down and change the way euchre was meant to be played.
I believe those settings can be changed in "Friendly Games" in the app. In fact, I just checked and yes, you can change any of those settings in a Friendly Game. So that would be a way to play using the usual rules.

Mxx
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Post by Mxx » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 pm

It is so awesome to see people sharing their stats on that app. I have often wondered how mine compare to others, as I know it will be an indicator of whether I am being aggressive enough with my calls. When I share my stats with friends and family members they change the subject.

I have one account called 6 Aces that I played for a long time and it has hit 100 a modest number of times. I am currently playing a new account called 5 Aces.

My stats over the last ~350 games are:
Caller 35%
Euchred calls 17%
Loner 6.4%
Tricks per hand 1.37

I expect this means I could be a bit more aggressive. I tend to donate only on 9-6 and 9-7 scenarios. I am sometimes held back from more risky loners if I think our team can march. Maybe that reasoning is incorrect.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:37 pm

Mxx wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 pm
I have one account called 6 Aces that I played for a long time and it has hit 100 a modest number of times. I am currently playing a new account called 5 Aces.
I've played with you before months ago. We were actually teammates. You played terrible..........JUST KIDDING :) I actually have no recollection on how you played. The only reason I remembered we played together is becuz you are the only player to ever send me a private message questioning my play. After the game you asked me why I called next with just the right bower and nothing else. I did not respond becuz I got sucked into another game, but later when I saw you again, I tried to message you and explain why I made that call. I'm not sure if you ever got that message. Anyways, what's funny to me is most people just call me an idiot, or blacklist me, or say "You suck!!" or something in the same vein of "I hope you die a slow and agonizing death!", etc. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the most heavily criticized player on that app. But you were different. I've played like 15-20 thousand games on there, and you are the only one to inquisitively ask me why I made a particular play. Humans like you are rare my friend.
Mxx wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 pm
I expect this means I could be a bit more aggressive. I tend to donate only on 9-6 and 9-7 scenarios.
Some conservative (in my opinion) recommendations to open up your donation game:

1) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have no trump and no aces donate vs any upcard.

2) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have no trump but one ace donate vs a Jack or an Ace upcard

3) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have 1 trump and 1 ace, and that 1 trump is not the Left, donate vs a Jack

4) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have 1 trump and no aces, and that 1 trump is not the left, donate vs an Ace. Donate vs a Jack even if that one trump is the Left.

5) As you've already mentioned, always donate up 9-6/9-7 if you don't block a loner.

That list is not exhaustive, but it's not a bad primer.
Mxx wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 pm
I am sometimes held back from more risky loners if I think our team can march. Maybe that reasoning is incorrect.
It just depends. Just be ready to take some chances when your team is down and out.

EG: The other day my team was down 5-0. The upcard was the (Card_9-S)

I was in the 2 seat with (Card_A-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-D)

I went alone and luckily got the 4 point sweep. My partner had the left and the right was in the kitty. These are the type of plays most people don't make but you never wanna go down without a fight. Don't just run the clock out down 17 points. Air it out, thread the needle into double coverage. If it gets picked off so be it. Down 5-0, before the cards were dealt, my team only had approx 18% equity to win the game. This is where you need to go into MAKE PLAYS mode.

Mxx
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Post by Mxx » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:37 pm

Some conservative (in my opinion) recommendations to open up your donation game:

1) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have no trump and no aces donate vs any upcard.

2) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have no trump but one ace donate vs a Jack or an Ace upcard

3) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have 1 trump and 1 ace, and that 1 trump is not the Left, donate vs a Jack

4) If your team is up by 2 or more and you have 1 trump and no aces, and that 1 trump is not the left, donate vs an Ace. Donate vs a Jack even if that one trump is the Left.

5) As you've already mentioned, always donate up 9-6/9-7 if you don't block a loner.

That list is not exhaustive, but it's not a bad primer.
Wes, you are a fanatical proponent of the donation and I respect your style of play.

I can see the expected value of protecting against a low probability event (the loner), when the cost is negligible (i.e. if euchred on 9-6 or 9-7, I have the deal at 9-9, still a good chance of winning). But I am not convinced donations in other scenarios have a better expected return

As an aside, have you considered?:
- Testing whether you achieve better results without donating to the dealer (all other things being equal over the long term)?
- That donating to avoid loner attempts by the opposition is a form of loss aversion - the principle that people feel losses more than an equal amount of gain? I have observed that a surprisingly high number of loners are stoppable, yet I always remember the small % of loners that are successful.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:04 am

Mxx wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:08 am
Wes, you are a fanatical proponent of the donation and I respect your style of play.

I can see the expected value of protecting against a low probability event (the loner), when the cost is negligible (i.e. if euchred on 9-6 or 9-7, I have the deal at 9-9, still a good chance of winning). But I am not convinced donations in other scenarios have a better expected return

As an aside, have you considered?:
- Testing whether you achieve better results without donating to the dealer (all other things being equal over the long term)?
- That donating to avoid loner attempts by the opposition is a form of loss aversion - the principle that people feel losses more than an equal amount of gain? I have observed that a surprisingly high number of loners are stoppable, yet I always remember the small % of loners that are successful.
The best evidence I have is my own personal results, and they have simply been too good to consider deviating from my fanatical donating strategy :) Keep in mind, this level of evidence doesn't satisfy me either. I wish we could really put my suggested strategy to the test with that mythical euchre simulator, but alas, that's not an option as of now. All I can say is that my donation strategy has been finely honed over 15-20 thousand games, and as with any strategy I'll continue to keep refining it when I see fit, but I can never really KNOW that I am right unfortunately. That said, if it was regularly taking me more than a thousand games to get to 5 crowns, or even more than 800 games, I would definitely scrutinize the grey areas more heavily.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:04 pm

I've played with you before months ago. We were actually teammates. You played terrible..........JUST KIDDING :) I actually have no recollection on how you played. The only reason I remembered we played together is becuz you are the only player to ever send me a private message questioning my play. After the game you asked me why I called next with just the right bower and nothing else. I did not respond becuz I got sucked into another game, but later when I saw you again, I tried to message you and explain why I made that call. I'm not sure if you ever got that message. Anyways, what's funny to me is most people just call me an idiot, or blacklist me, or say "You suck!!" or something in the same vein of "I hope you die a slow and agonizing death!", etc. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the most heavily criticized player on that app. But you were different. I've played like 15-20 thousand games on there, and you are the only one to inquisitively ask me why I made a particular play. Humans like you are rare my friend.
I played a game last night against someone calling himself "WesSux." Was that one of these players that you've ticked off over the years or was that actually you being facetious?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:20 am

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:04 pm
I played a game last night against someone calling himself "WesSux." Was that one of these players that you've ticked off over the years or was that actually you being facetious?
Well, number one, having the likely highest euchre rate on the app does tend to tick off a lot of partners. You see when I lose, it's brutally ugly. Getting euchred 3 or 4 times a game. It almost looks like I'm losing on purpose, and this tilts a lot of people. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the most blacklisted person on the app. Lol.

And number two, how do I say this....I don't have the greatest personality. I tend to trash talk a lot, teasing people, getting under their skin. I don't know, life sux and euchre is a cool distraction. As much as I love euchre, it's just a silly game, and anyone who takes serious pride in being good at it is probably mentally ill, but it's fun to act like euchre is more important than it is and say stuff like "gg the tougher team won" just before you go alone as the dealer down 9-6 with a club hand like this:

(Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)

So yeah I would say 99% of the hate I get on that site is deserved. BTW just recently retired Wes 23 in 560 games. On to the next account. I've probably put in around 4,000 hours on this app in less than 2 years. I seriously have a problem.

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