Ordering Up to The Dealer

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RedDuke
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Ordering Up to The Dealer

Post by RedDuke » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:54 pm

You and your partner are both very skilled players in the final round of a big tournament. You're in third seat holding this:

(Card_Q-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_J-S)

Upcard is the (Card_J-D) .

The score is 6-6.

Your partner in first seat passes and so does the dealer's partner.

Do you order the right into the dealer's hand or pass and why?

Would it make a difference in your answer if the score was 8-6 in your favor?
Last edited by RedDuke on Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Richardb02
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:47 pm

RedDuke you are showing 6 cards in your hand. Please correct.
Last edited by Richardb02 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richardb02
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:57 pm

Per OE: "You should not block from the third seat, it is the job of your partner (in first seat) to block."

Your partner is skilled, so he must have the Alone blocked. So he has Left X or Axx. He actually communicated that he had at least 1 trick by passing. If he had 2 he would have bid. I don't see 2 likely tricks in my hand, which indicates pass. I even have both reverse next suits blocked. So pass.

Even if the score is 8-6, the logic would be the same. Blocking should happen from the 1st Seat, so pass. You don't have a solid bid, so pass. You have reverse next blocked, so pass.

Please note: OE used "block" to describe a bid to stop a loner. The forum has generally used "donate or donating." Forcing has been used on the forum to specify bidding to stop your opponent from bidding when they have 8 or 9 points.

Don
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:33 am

Post by Don » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:08 pm

Here I would be tempted to order.
Your partner is skilled, so he must have the Alone blocked. So he has Left X or Axx. He actually communicated that he had at least 1 trick by passing.
You know where 5, possibly 6 trump are. As a skilled player, your partner would lead trump. About the only way you’d be in trouble is if the dealer had the two black aces and your partner also had a club and spade.

RedDuke
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Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm

Don wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:08 pm
Here I would be tempted to order.
Your partner is skilled, so he must have the Alone blocked. So he has Left X or Axx. He actually communicated that he had at least 1 trick by passing.
You know where 5, possibly 6 trump are. As a skilled player, your partner would lead trump. About the only way you’d be in trouble is if the dealer had the two black aces and your partner also had a club and spade.
If you order, you're going to know where at least six trump are. Like you've both said, your partner is holding at least two, one of which is the left. You also have the three in your hand and you'd know that dealer is holding the right. So that's 6 trump.

I'd argue that most likely your partner is holding Left+1. If he's holding the three trump that you aren't (and the dealer isn't) then he'd have Left, Ace, and Queen of diamonds. It's hard to believe he wouldn't call with that unless he has a heart or two on the side with a score of 6-6. Thus, by ordering up, you might be stopping a first seat next loner.

You can also assume that there's no way he's going to pass second round. Not unless he has everything blocked and that's pretty unlikely unless he's holding both the left and the jack of clubs. You also have at least one guaranteed trick in your hand in both black suits. So there's no chance that you'll have the second seat reverse next loner sweep. The worst scenario for you would be if second seat attempted a loner in next during the second round but you already know that your partner is holding is jack of hearts so he'll be able to stop that.

I'd argue that the best thing for you to do here is pass. If the dealer picks up, you have a decent shot at euchring them between what you and your partner is holding. The worst case scenario is that they do manage to take enough tricks to get a point but in no case will they get more than one point. Moreover, it is possible for you to get euchred by ordering up here. Even though you and your partner have at least five trump between you, that's no guarantee that you won't get euchred. Moreover, if your partner does have the loner in hearts, you won't block his attempt to win the game. Your partner also has the next deal, so even if they do get the point, you have advantage to tie the game (or exceed them).

Richardb02
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:55 pm

Hey Don, what are you seeing that you are not fully describing?

I see only 1 trick in my hand and reverse next blocked for the second round. What are you adding to my analysis, leading you to bid?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:15 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:55 pm
Hey Don, what are you seeing that you are not fully describing?

I see only 1 trick in my hand and reverse next blocked for the second round. What are you adding to my analysis, leading you to bid?
In fact, you don't even have one trick in your hand. What you have is a situation where between you and your partner, you have two tricks (since you know for a fact that the dealer won't have three trump if you order up).

While you will usually take three tricks if you have three trump, there's no guarantee of that.

Don
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:33 am

Post by Don » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:32 pm

You’re right, we know the location of six trump. I just glanced at the hand. Any time my partner passes with a right turned up, I know he has a lone stopped. (Assuming a lone would put them out). In this situation and holding three trump in the third seat, to me, this is an automatic call. Is there a risk? Sure, but that can be said on almost any hand

In this hand your partner is telling you he has a sure trick, most likely either Left-Q or Left-A. To start with, wouldn’t it be nice to have this information on every call you made? What you don’t know is what’s in the dealer's hand. All you know is he’s not strong in diamonds, Does he have a call in black? Sure is possible. But you say, they could only make 1 point. Well yes, but why allow your opponents the opportunity to make any points. Are you willing to risk that your partner may have the chance to call? If so, will he have the cards needed? No? What about a reverse call from second?

Order the right, your team has a good chance of making a point. You need to make use of the information your partner is giving you. Can I give you the numbers, no, but I’ve played enough to know this is a biddable hand.

You do need a trump lead by your partner. Any experienced player would do this on a third seat call. You lose the first trick. However, they would need everything to work in their favor for them to take the next two.

More than each individual hand, this is about your team taking 3 tricks, combined.

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