Advanced Euchre Quiz

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Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Advanced Euchre Quiz

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:17 am

For all questions assume the action is on you if unstated and tell me what you would do. Also, stick it to the dealer is in effect.

1) You're in a Euchre tournament. The structure is very simple. You play 6 games with random partners. The person with the most points in the end wins. Each game is up to ten with the max points possible being 13. You are in game one.

You are the dealer, and your team is up 6-0

The upcard is the (Card_K-C)

You hold (Card_J-S), (Card_J-C), (Card_9-D), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C)



The rest of the questions are for normal non-tournament games.



2) The score is 0-0. You are the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_10-C)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_K-C), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-H), (Card_9-S)



3) The score is 3-3. You're in seat 1, and the dealer turned down the (Card_9-S)

You have (Card_J-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-H), (Card_J-H)



4) Your team is up 7-0. Your partner, the dealer turned down the (Card_9-H)

First seat passes and it's on you.

You hold (Card_K-C), (Card_10-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H)



5) The score is 5-5. You're in the 2 seat and the dealer upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You have (Card_J-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_10-C), (Card_9-S), (Card_9-H)



6) The score is 0-0. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_10-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_9-S)



7) Your team is up 4-3. You're in the 2 seat and the dealer upcard is the (Card_K-H)

You're hold (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-D), (Card_J-S), (Card_J-C)



8) Your team is up 6-0. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer just turned down the 9s.

You have (Card_J-S), (Card_9-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-H)



9) Your team is down 9-6. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer just turned down the (Card_9-H)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_A-S)



10) Your team is up 4-2. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-S)

You have (Card_Q-S), (Card_10-S), (Card_9-S), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-H)



11) The score is 0-0. You're in the 3rd seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_10-H)

You hold (Card_J-D), (Card_K-H), (Card_Q-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_Q-C)



12) Your team is up 8-1. You're in the 2 seat. The dealer's upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_K-C), (Card_9-S)



13) Your team is up 9-0. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_9-C)

You hold (Card_K-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_K-H), (Card_Q-H), (Card_9-S)



14) The score is 0-0. You're in seat 1 and the dealer turned down the (Card_9-S)

You have (Card_J-C), (Card_10-S), (Card_J-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_10-H)



15) Your team is up 3-2. You're in the 2 seat. The dealer turned down the (Card_K-H), and seat 1 passes in the 2nd round.

You hold (Card_A-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_10-S), (Card_K-D), (Card_10-D)



16) The score is 6-6. You're in the 3rd seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-S)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_K-S), (Card_Q-S), (Card_A-D), (Card_J-H)



17) Your team is down 9-7. You're the dealer. The upcard is the (Card_10-S)

You have (Card_A-S), (Card_A-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_A-H), (Card_9-C)



18) The score is 6-6. You are the dealer.

The upcard is (Card_J-D)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_J-S)



19) The score is 4-4. You're in seat 1. The dealer picks up the (Card_K-H)

You hold (Card_J-H), (Card_J-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_9-C), (Card_J-S)

What do you lead?



20) The score is 9-9. You're in the 2 seat.

The upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_10-S), (Card_9-S), (Card_9-C)



21) The score is 0-0. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer turned down the (Card_9-C)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_10-S), (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-D)



22) The score is 0-0. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer turned down the (Card_9-C)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_K-S), (Card_10-S), (Card_K-C)



23) Your team is down 5-0. You're in the 2 seat.

The upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_K-C), (Card_9-C)



24) The score is 0-0. You're in seat 1. The dealer upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You hold (Card_K-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_K-S), (Card_Q-S), (Card_K-H)



25) Your team is down 0-3. You're in the 2 seat.

The dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_A-S), (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_A-H)



26) Your team is down 9-6. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_A-C)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_9-H)



27) The score is 4-4. You're in seat 2.

The dealer upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-D), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_9-S)



28) The score is 4-4. You're in seat 2.

The dealer upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-D), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_J-S)



29) The score is 2-2. You're in the 3rd seat. The upcard is the (Card_10-S)

You hold (Card_K-S), (Card_J-S), (Card_9-S), (Card_K-H), (Card_Q-D)



30) The score is 0-0. You're in the 1 seat. The upcard is the (Card_Q-S)

Your partner orders the dealer up from 3rd.

You hold (Card_A-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_A-H), (Card_9-H)

You lead the (Card_A-D), 2 seat plays the (Card_Q-C), your partner follows suit with the (Card_K-D), and the dealer follows suit with the (Card_10-D)

What should you lead next?
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Richardb02
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:41 am

I'll apply my BPS to these 2 hands.

6) The score is 0-0. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_10-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_9-S)
+0.25 Dealer
+0.25 9h
+1.0 Right
+0.5 Ac
+0.5 Ad
+.25 1 Void
2.75 bid


7) Your team is up 4-3. You're in the 2 seat and the dealer upcard is the (Card_K-H)

You're hold (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-D), (Card_J-S), (Card_J-C)
+0.50 Seat 2
+1.00 Right
+0.50 h
+0.5 Ad
+0.25 Difference between up card 0.5 and 0.25 built into Dealer's up card
2.75 Bid

I calculated hands 2-5 in my Bidding Point System thread.

RedDuke
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:26 pm

1. I'm picking up, discarding the nine, and going alone for a nice easy win.
2. Pass
3. All suits blocked? I'm passing.
4. That hand by itself isn't good enough to call, but at the same time, you don't have anything stopped from a third seat lone. Call clubs and hope for the best.
5. Pass
6. I'm picking up and discarding the nine. That hand is probably good for at least two tricks.
7. You've got everything blocked and that hand has a pretty good chance of taking two tricks no matter what the trump suit is. I'm passing. Either your partner will pick up or you're in a great position to attempt to euchre the opponents.
8. Call clubs to prevent a potential reverse next lone call from second seat.
9. Call diamonds.
10. Order up the dealer. You can't stop the ace and you have nothing blocked but maybe you can prevent a lone call.
11. It's a weak one, but at a score of 0-0, a euchre won't be the end of the world. Order up the dealer and go alone.
12. Pass
13. Pass
14. You have everything blocked but no real strength in any one single suit. Pass.
15. A clubs call might be worth trying. Without the side ace and the fact that you're three suited, it's not a definite call, but I'd still take the chance.
16. You've got everything stopped. I'd pass on that. Either the dealer will pick up, putting you in a semi-strong position, or your partner will call next, and you still have a good hand (albeit weaker than one in spades). That hand by itself isn't strong enough to order the ace into your opponent's hand from third seat given that you only have one card that can stop it.
17. Down 9-7, I'm picking that up.
18. Pass. If first seat calls next, you've got a really good shot at euchring him. If everybody passes second round, you go alone in clubs. If someone calls spades or clubs, you've got enough power to take 3 tricks easy.
19. Tough call. I wouldn't lead one of the bowers there because that could pull any trump your partner has and leave him with nothing. You've got a euchre there if your partner can take a trick. Dealer probably has a void in diamonds so I'd lead one of the black cards and hope your partner can take it.
20. Order up your partner. Your hand is garbage but diamonds is your best shot, especially with the dealer being able to make a void. Plus, at a score of 9-9, it's doubtful that eldest would pass if he has anything, meaning that either third seat has all the diamonds (in which case, he'll order at that score) or they're in your partner's hand or the kitty, in which case you might have a shot.
21. Call spades.
22. I'd still call spades there.
23. Order up your partner and go alone.
24. Nothing blocked, no trumps, no aces, and the upcard is the nine? I'll pass.
25. Order up your partner. It's doubtful you'll stop his lone attempt.
26. Pick it up, discard the 9 of hearts.
27. Pass
28. Pass. This hand is a much stronger pass than the previous one because you have much more strength in reverse next (clubs).
29. Even though it's a third seat call, I'd order up the dealer here.
30. So second seat is void in diamonds and is probably void in trumps? You don't play second hand low when the lead card is an ace. If your partner ordered up the queen into the dealer's hand from third seat, he's got to have some serious power in trump and he's probably void diamonds after that first lead. I'd actually lead diamonds again and see what happens, but this is a tough call. If he uses a big trump to ensure that the dealer won't overtrump him, then dealer will just throw off. Honestly though, dealer probably has another diamond and played from a doubleton. So the nine of diamonds is probably the best way to give your partner the lead and if he also figures that the dealer has the queen of diamonds still, he won't use his big trump to take it.

Richardb02
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:41 pm

Hi Wes,
I really appreciate your Advanced Euchre Quiz and especially your insights as you explain the reasoning behind your decisions. It is even more amazing that you gave us 30 hands to analyze!

I've started to analyze how I would handle each hand. I look forward a spirited discussion with you and everyone on this forum. Thank you.

Don
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:33 am

Post by Don » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:35 pm

1) Play alone
2) Pick the 10.
3) Call diamonds, Lead Jack
4) Pass
5) Order the 9
6) Call alone
7) Order
8) Pass
9) Call diamonds, lead the left
10) Pass, If dealer picks, Lead the 10 of spades
11) Pass
12) if dealer turns down then 9 call clubs
13) Pass
14) Pass, You have any lone call stopped, and a possible euchre
15) Call clubs
16) pass
17) Pick the 10
18) Pass
19) either 9 or jack
20) Dealer turns down the 9? Pass
21) call spades, lead 10 of hearts
22) Call spades, Lead AceD (get euchred?)
23) Pass, wait for next or possible euchre for dealer
24) pass
25) Order partner
26) Pick Ace, lead 9 of hearts
27) Order
28) Order
29) Order
30) Lead Ace of Clubs

Don
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:33 am

Post by Don » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:43 pm

I assume on most of these question, it gets passed back to the dealer.

It will be interesting to see everyone's answer. I'm sure we will disagree on some.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:29 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:41 pm
Hi Wes,
I really appreciate your Advanced Euchre Quiz and especially your insights as you explain the reasoning behind your decisions. It is even more amazing that you gave us 30 hands to analyze!
Not being able to sleep has its advantages!
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:41 pm
I've started to analyze how I would handle each hand. I look forward a spirited discussion with you and everyone on this forum. Thank you.
That's the way to do it. I hate point systems cuz they effectively just turn off your brain. Analyzing hands and talking about hands is the best way to master any card game in my opinion although with other card games like poker you also have the enviable option of watching videos of experts playing hands and you can read excellent books. As far as I know there are no options like that with euchre. No good videos or books that I know of although this site is the equivalent of an excellent book. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The info on this site is pure gold.
Don wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:43 pm
I assume on most of these question, it gets passed back to the dealer.
All questions assume the action is on you at that moment. If this changes some of your answers you can always edit your post.
Don wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:43 pm
It will be interesting to see everyone's answer. I'm sure we will disagree on some.
As I've said before, in any card game math is the ultimate answer. My answers are not based on math, only my experience. And we all know from playing poker or blackjack with other bad players who have tons of experience that experience in itself doesn't carry much wait. It would be nice if we had some magical euchre simulator where we could run a spot a million times over and compare it to other strategies to figure out what's best. Only then could we be supremely confident in every decision we make. Until then there is a degree of humility none of us can escape but in my humble opinion if you disagree with any of my answers you are wrong and should feel great shame.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:30 am

BTW I'm not sure when I should come out with the answers. I suppose I should wait a few more days to give others a chance to chime in.

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:39 am

Give it a couple of weeks. This will allow for those that don't check in that often.
If your dreams don’t scare you then they're not big enough

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Dlan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:39 am
Give it a couple of weeks. This will allow for those that don't check in that often.
Sounds good.

irishwolf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:29 am

Answers to those quiz hands depend also on who is my partner. A random quacko on the internet or I don't know or my regular partner I have played with for years.

And who are my opponents.

I would answer differently for different situation.

RedDuke
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:47 am

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:29 am
Answers to those quiz hands depend also on who is my partner. A random quacko on the internet or I don't know or my regular partner I have played with for years.

And who are my opponents.

I would answer differently for different situation.
Likewise. I assumed a partner that actually knows what he's doing when I made my quiz answers, but in the case of some random whacko on the internet, I'd normally be more aggressive at calling.

irishwolf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:55 am

MY ANSWERS - with a decent partner and an average opponent at 1st as it applies.
1. go alone
2. order – ANS could also be pass
3. pass
4. pass
5. assist
6. order
7. pass
8. clubs – depends on who is in 2nd seat
9. diamonds
10. pass – you might have 1 trick
11. order – but it is a weak hand and 1 trick in next
12. assist – you have nothing in next and two tricks in hearts
13. pick it up – reverse donate
14. pass
15. clubs
16. order - dealer will have to have JS and a small trump with an ace to euchre me.
17. pick it up
18. pass
19. do not lead trump – diamonds lead I want the dealer to spend a trump
20. assist – score is 9 to 9, best you have
21. next
22. next spades
23. assist
24. pass
25. assist – weak loner from 2nd seat
26. pick it up
27. assist
28. assist (even if you pass and eldest passes you have one point in clubs, maybe.)
29. order
30. 9Diamonds - dealer has to have another diamond and I have two aces even if partner gets over trumped.

IRISHWOLF

irishwolf
Posts: 127
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:23 pm

I am open to discussion on any of the hands or answers given.

I see too many answers to 'pass' just because you have hands blocked instead of making trump to score points. Euchre is about scoring points unless the chance of a euchre is very high.

Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:36 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:47 am
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:29 am
Answers to those quiz hands depend also on who is my partner. A random quacko on the internet or I don't know or my regular partner I have played with for years.

And who are my opponents.

I would answer differently for different situation.
Likewise. I assumed a partner that actually knows what he's doing when I made my quiz answers, but in the case of some random whacko on the internet, I'd normally be more aggressive at calling.
For all my questions assume all players know what they are doing.

Richardb02
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:26 pm

The points, ie 2.00 in question 1, are from my BPS system, in another thread.
1. Alone
2. Bid, if you have decided you want to play aggressively. 2.00
3. Easy decision to call Diamonds. 3.25
4. Call diamonds because donating is so important. Diamonds earns a higher score than Singleton Kc. 2.0 vs 1.0
5. Pass 1.75
6. Bid 2.75
7. Bid 2.75
8. Bid 2.00
9. Call Clubs 3.00 vs Diamonds 2.50
10. Pass 1.75
11. Bid 3.25 is not strong enough for an Alone at 0-0
12 Bid 2.75 including 0.75 because donating makes sense
13. Pass. 1.00 Donating isn't mandatory
14. Pass 2.00 max
15. Call clubs 2.75
16. Bid 3.25 is too strong to pass up when you don't have a 2nd round bid
17. Bid 3.50 after adding 0.75 becaue Opponents have 9 points
18 Pass. All suits are blocked plus you have a 2nd round alone in clubs 5.25, very strong
19. 10d. Give your Partner a chance or have Dealer use a trump.
20. Bid 2.50 adding 0.75 because your Opponents have 9 points.
21. Pass 2.00
22. Bid spades 2.25
23. Alone 4.75 including 0.50 for being behind 5 points
24. Pass 0.00
25. Alone 4.75. 99% chance of taking 3 tricks
26. Aone 4.00 It’s a Hail Mary with a decent chance
27. Bid 2.25
28. Pass 2.25 acceptable but minimal bid. All suits blocked. 2nd Round bid 3.75
29. Bid 2.75 even with a weak playing partner
30. 9d.Since Ad was lead, I want my this lead to give Partner the best opportunity to trump.

Suz
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 6:06 pm

Post by Suz » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:31 pm

1) I would go a lone
2) I would pass
3) I would call hearts
4) I would pass
5) I would pass
6) I would pass
7) I would call hearts
8) I would pass
9) I would pass
10) I would pass
11) I would call hearts
12) I would pass
13) I would pass
14) I would pass
15) I would call clubs
16) I would pass
17) I would pass
18) I would call diamonds
19) I would lead the jack of hearts
20) I would pass
21) I would pass
22) I would pass
23) I would call hearts
24) I would pass
25) I would call spades
26) I would pass
27) I would call hearts
28) I would call hearts
29) I would call spades
30) I would pass

How did I do?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:29 am

1) You're in a Euchre tournament. The structure is very simple. You play 6 games with random partners. The person with the most points in the end wins. Each game is up to ten with the max points possible being 13. You are in game one.

You are the dealer, and your team is up 6-0

The upcard is the (Card_K-C)

You hold (Card_J-S), (Card_J-C), (Card_9-D), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C)

ANSWER: Do not go alone. Just call. This is a tricky question. Just remember that the person with the most points at the end of the night wins. Points are more important than actually winning. If you go alone you get 10 points, game over, end of story. If you just call your team goes up 8-0 with a chance to finish with 11, 12, or 13 points. In fact if you can get up 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-4, and maybe 9-5, you should now pass all biddable hands fishing for that coveted 4 point loner hand. While it's true that if you go up 8-0 bad things can still happen and approximately 4% of the time your team will end up losing with 8 or 9 points. But 4% is not a high enough probability to worry about, plus losing with 8 or 9 points is not a disaster. That's still a decent point total that keeps you in the running in the tournament. This is a highly counterintuitive spot where the EV (expected value) of going up 8-0 is higher than winning 10-0.

Where did I get that 4% figure?: http://members.tripod.com/borf_books/euchprob.htm



The rest of the questions are for normal non-tournament games.



2) The score is 0-0. You are the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_10-C)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_K-C), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-H), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: Call clubs. When you block no suits, two trump plus a singleton green ace is a call more for defensive purposes than offensive purposes. Yes it's a marginal call, and you will certainly get euchred more than you'd like. The theory here is you will squeeze out enough points offensively, plus block enough seat 1 loners + seat 1 calls that end up getting 2 points or 1 point, to make up for the higher euchre frequency of this marginal holding. I would also make this defensive call with two trump and a doubleton green ace, or two trump and a singleton non-green ace.



3) The score is 3-3. You're in seat 1, and the dealer turned down the (Card_9-S)

You have (Card_J-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-H), (Card_J-H)

ANSWER: This hand actually comes from a Natty Bumppo column:

http://members.tripod.com/borf_books/ecolum41.htm#euchrehand

While most people in the poll voted to call something, I agree with the author that this is a pass. This is a pretty decent euchre hand. I don't know if there's a formal definition of a euchre hand out there but I would say it is any hand where you have all suits blocked with nearly two tricks in every suit. This hand qualifies. Don't waste this opportunity by calling.



4) Your team is up 7-0. Your partner, the dealer turned down the (Card_9-H)

First seat passes and it's on you.

You hold (Card_K-C), (Card_10-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H)

ANSWER: Make a hail mary reverse next club call. This is basically a donation from the 2 seat, a donation you're making to protect your team from a 3rd seat loner, a possibility that goes up significantly given your garbage holding. With such a nice lead never pass a hand in this spot when you block nothing. It is often the case in euchre where doing what's best for your team is more important than your actual holding. This means playing sound defense which equates to playing to win instead of just playing your cards.



5) The score is 5-5. You're in the 2 seat and the dealer upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You have (Card_J-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_10-C), (Card_9-S), (Card_9-H)

ANSWER: Call diamonds. Right + 1 from the 2 seat is a marginal call that makes a point quite often, and it's a marginal call you must make when you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits in the 2nd round. If you pass, your partner will pass all kinds of marginal helper hands that would've allowed your team to eke out a point. Your partner would never pass these hands if he could see your cards. Don't induce your partner to make these technical mistakes (I.E. any time your partner plays his hand differently than he would have had he seen your cards he has made a technical mistake). It is especially tragic when you pass this hand and your partner passes one of those helper hands I'm talking about and then Seat 1 goes alone in black. Never give seat 1 a chance at a black loner or even a 2 point call. Even though this hand is a marginal call, it's way too big of a hand to give seat 1 that opportunity. IOW never pass Right + 1 in this spot if you don't block all suits.



6) The score is 0-0. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_10-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: Go alone in hearts, discarding the spade. (Right + 1) + (Suited ace) + (another ace) is a marginal loner configuration but a loner nonetheless. It may look scary but it actually doesn't get euchred that often and it gets 4 points often enough to make up for that downside. That said, when you do go alone with this holding you have to play it right when things go badly. E.G. say seat 1 leads a spade and Seat 3 trump it with the Th. Don't over-trump with the right and blow up your hand. Understand that the instant Seat 3 trumped in with a card higher than your lower trump, your loner attempt got ruined. Go on the defensive and throw off with the Tc instead. You're now playing for a point. As the saying goes sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

A good example hand can be found on this site, it's the last example on this page: https://ohioeuchre.com/L-Learn_To_Play_Euchre_Lesson-10-AdvancedPlayExamples3.php

Note: I actually disagree with the way that hand was played in the later stage. I would play the Js before the Ac.



7) Your team is up 4-3. You're in the 2 seat and the dealer upcard is the (Card_K-H)

You're hold (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-D), (Card_J-S), (Card_J-C)

ANSWER: Pass. Not only do you have all suits blocked with a decent euchre hand but you have a viable loner hand in the 2nd round. So pass in the first round with the intention of going alone in black in the 2nd. That said, change the Ad into the Ac and now you should order hearts in the first round. Now you don't block a next call. As mentioned in hand (5), never pass Jack + 1 from the 2 spot in the first round when you don't block all suits. The only time to consider violating this rule is if seat 1 is a very weak player who passes often and you have a 2 round loner. I'm also sympathetic to the idea of passing a biddable hand from the 2 seat in the first round to go for a loner in the 2nd round when your team is down 9-6/9-7 regardless of how many suits you have blocked. Keep in mind tho that this play will never work if seat 1 is a strong player because strong players will never pass from seat 1 in the 2nd round up 9-6/9-7 unless they have all suits blocked for the obvious reason.



8) Your team is up 6-0. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer just turned down the 9s.

You have (Card_J-S), (Card_9-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-H)

ANSWER: Call next (clubs). Never pass in this spot when you're up 6-0 and you don't block reverse next. Grit your teeth and do what's best for your team and protect that nice lead. Don't give Seat 2 a chance at a red loner. Hell it's even possible for Seat 2 to have a loner sweep in clubs! BUT NOT ON YOUR WATCH!!!



9) Your team is down 9-6. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer just turned down the (Card_9-H)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_A-S)

ANSWER: Go alone in diamonds. You're down 9-6. It's hail mary time. And this hand isn't as bad as it looks. If the right is buried you have a decent shot here, and the possibility that the right is indeed buried goes up significantly after your opponents turned down a heart. Lead the left and pray. Also, if you don't convert the loner sweep it isn't the end of the world. This hand still often scores a point by itself with all those aces.



10) Your team is up 4-2. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-S)

You have (Card_Q-S), (Card_10-S), (Card_9-S), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-H)

ANSWER: Grit your teeth and call spades. Sure you'd rather not, but you have no where to go in the 2nd round should the dealer pass. If the dealer turns down the As, you're now in a nightmare spot potentially passing with a garbage hand that blocks nothing. Ideally you'd like to never put your team at that kind of grave risk. The less riskier venture is to order up spades in the first round. It's not hopeless. You still have 3 trump. Things can go your way. Look at it like a semi-donate.



11) The score is 0-0. You're in the 3rd seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_10-H)

You hold (Card_J-D), (Card_K-H), (Card_Q-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_Q-C)

ANSWER: I pass here. IMO this hand is not strong enough to order up from the 3rd spot. It isn't just because the 3rd seat is where a high percentage of euchres happen due to the fact that you don't have the lead and can easily get over-trumped should your partner have no trump to lead. You also have to play very tight from 3rd becuz this is where the most technical mistakes happen on your calls. Again, technical mistakes are made any time you would play your hand differently had you seen everyone's cards. I.E. every time you call and the dealer would've ordered himself had you passed you've made a technical mistake. And every time you call from 3rd and the dealer would've passed but your partner had a better hand in the 2nd round, especially a loner, you really lose out, and even when your partner has a 2nd round hand that would've scored a point you've made a technical mistake because your 1st rd call now was an unnecessary risk. Also, don't forget about the possibility of the dreaded 6 point technical mistake. That is, you call, and get set whereas if you had passed, the dealer would've passed and your partner had a 2nd round loner sweep. For these reasons 3 trump without the right and no off aces is a pass for me. Also, remember, all the dealer really needs here to pick up is to also have the right to go along with his upcard, and if the dealer passes you still have the right power to help out a next call.

12) Your team is up 8-1. You're in the 2 seat. The dealer's upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_K-C), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: Call Hearts. Whenever your team reaches 8 or 9 points and you have a big lead you need to loosen up your calls from the 2 seat, first round when you block very little. This is becuz 1) you no longer have to worry about blocking your partner's loner and 2) the last thing you want to do here is give up a seat 1, 2nd round loner. So hands that are normally not quite good enough to call, like 2 low trump + an off ace. now become a must call when you block no suits up 8-1. Don't fall in the autopilot trap of just playing your cards. Always play the situation, always think ahead. Always play sound defense.



13) Your team is up 9-0. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_9-C)

You hold (Card_K-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_K-H), (Card_Q-H), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: This is one of the few situations where you should donate from the dealer spot. With such a garbage hand, blocking nothing, having no aces, don't even give seat 1 a chance at a 4 point play when you're up 9-0. Remember in euchre, there's not many buried cards. Most of the cards are in play. So when you have absolutely nothing, there's a great chance someone else is loaded.



14) The score is 0-0. You're in seat 1 and the dealer turned down the (Card_9-S)

You have (Card_J-C), (Card_10-S), (Card_J-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_10-H)

ANSWER: Pass. Never call marginal from seat 1, 2nd round when you block all suits except when your opponents are at 9.



15) Your team is up 3-2. You're in the 2 seat. The dealer turned down the (Card_K-H), and seat 1 passes in the 2nd round.

You hold (Card_A-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_10-S), (Card_K-D), (Card_10-D)

ANSWER: I call clubs here. I posted this hand becuz it was debated in one of Natty Bumpo's columns back in the day. Here's the discussion:

http://members.tripod.com/borf_books/ecolum41.htm#jury

For me there's not really much of a debate here. Call clubs, but if I had a partner that called spades instead here I wouldn't sweat it. However, if my partner passed with this strong of a hand when he doesn't block next, he would be dead to me.



16) The score is 6-6. You're in the 3rd seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-S)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_K-S), (Card_Q-S), (Card_A-D), (Card_J-H)

ANSWER: Pass. Too many good things can happen if you pass here. 1) If the dealer picks up you have a great chance to set him (all he needs is the Right bower to justify an order). And 2) If the dealer passes you hit your partner no matter what he calls, and those times your partner goes alone you'll also be glad you passed. And the worse case scenario, the dealer and your partner both passing isn't that bad as you have all suits blocked. Ordering this hand up in the first round from the 3rd spot and getting set would be a small tragedy since it was a risk you didn't need to take given the upside to passing--a real risk to always respect since 3rd seat orders are the toughest ones to make.



17) Your team is down 9-7. You're the dealer. The upcard is the (Card_10-S)

You have (Card_A-S), (Card_A-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_A-H), (Card_9-C)

ANSWER: Go alone. If both bowers are buried you have a shot. You're down 9-7. It's go time. With two aces you still have a shot to make a point anyways. Go for 4 and the win.



18) The score is 6-6. You are the dealer.

The upcard is (Card_J-D)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_K-C), (Card_J-C), (Card_J-S)

ANSWER: Pass. You have a super strong euchre hand plus a club loner in the 2nd round. Calling in the first round and trying to fight for a point would be a great opportunity wasted.



19) The score is 4-4. You're in seat 1. The dealer picks up the (Card_K-H)

You hold (Card_J-H), (Card_J-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_9-C), (Card_J-S)

What do you lead?

ANSWER: Lead one of the bowers (The poker player in me prefers leading the Right since it conveys less information than leading the Left). I posted this hand because it's inherently controversial and discussed here:

http://borf_books.tripod.com/ecolum91.htm#2bowers

Bottom line. The argument given for leading a bower is certainly not at the level of a mathematical proof, but it's more compelling than the other side, and at the end of the day all we can do is make decisions based on the best evidence available.



20) The score is 9-9. You're in the 2 seat.

The upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_10-S), (Card_9-S), (Card_9-C)

Answer: Call diamonds. It's the best you got, and you pretty much have nothing else. If you pass and the dealer passes the game is almost certainly over given how weak you are in the other suits. So it's all in on diamonds for better or worse. Always remember, that at 9-9, the 2 seat has to loosen up his calling range significantly.



21) The score is 0-0. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer turned down the (Card_9-C)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_10-S), (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-D)

Answer: Call next. There's a concept that sometimes comes up in gambling where you have to make a -EV decision becuz your other choice(s) happens to have a worse -EV. I believe this happens a lot in euchre, and the best players in the world intuitively understand these spots and grit their teeth and make that tough call. Put another way, there are many times in euchre where passing is more risky than making a weak call. The opposing team just turned down a black card and you have virtually nothing in reverse next. Passing here and giving the 2 seat a chance at a red loner is just not acceptable. Call next and try to hit your partner. The game is young. If you go set it's no big deal.



22) The score is 0-0. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer turned down the (Card_9-C)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_K-S), (Card_10-S), (Card_K-C)

ANSWER: Call next. Same idea as in 21). You don't block reverse next, and in fact you have zero hearts which is extra scary given that your enemy just passed on a black card. Passing is extremely dangerous in this spot. Don't even consider it when you have 2 trump in next and an off ace. Yeah it's not the greatest hand in the world but it's good enough for the situation. When you block nothing, calling next with 2 trump + an off ace is a MUST call to protect your team. These precarious spots are why next calls exist! Play sound defense. No 2nd round loners for seat 2. Make people dread sitting on your left!! Also never worry about getting euchred when you block no suits or you have nothing in reverse next. The cost of getting euchred is virtually nothing in the long run when you add up all those times you blocked a 2nd seat loner, or a 2 point call, and a 1 point call. And don't forget all those coveted 5-6 point swings you can create. I.E. You call next and your team gets 1 or 2 points whereas if you pass the 2 seat had a loner sweep. Creating those type of big swings certainly makes up for a lot of euchres.



23) Your team is down 5-0. You're in the 2 seat.

The upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You have (Card_A-H), (Card_J-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_K-C), (Card_9-C)

ANSWER: Go alone. You're down 5-0. It's time to MAKE PLAYS. This is what I would call a gambler's loner. Meaning it's usually either a 4 point hand or a -2 point hand. Not much in between. Go for it and try to get back in this game. If neither of your opponents have 2 trump you're golden, and one trump, the dealer's upcard is already out of action. Most people are afraid to get euchred and look dumb, so they don't take chances like this. Don't be like those people. Always play to win!



24) The score is 0-0. You're in seat 1. The dealer upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You hold (Card_K-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_K-S), (Card_Q-S), (Card_K-H)

ANSWER: Donate. You have what I call the nightmare hand. No trump and no aces. The probability of your opponents getting 2 points on a call is pretty much as high as it gets given your holding. So getting euchred here doesn't really cost that much, therefore you might as well prevent them from ever getting 4 points--a possibility that is significantly more likely than normal here. Going down 0-2 to start the game isn't the end of the world anyways. You got plenty of time to come back. Not that it matters, cuz your holding is already sufficiently bad enough, but you also have no where to go in the 2nd round even if you did pass and a miracle happens and everyone else also passes.



25) Your team is down 0-3. You're in the 2 seat.

The dealer upcard is the (Card_10-S)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_A-S), (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_A-H)

ANSWER: Go Alone. Ok here me out. Yes you only have 2 trump, and yes you don't even have the Right, but look at the other variables. You have two green aces meaning these suits are less likely to get trumped on the first lead, and you have no gap in your suited ace. Think about all those times you have AdQd and someone has Kd9d to stop your loner. That can't happen here. Also, while it's true you can get over-trumped on the first lead, that doesn't hurt that much since only the Right can overtrump you, a card that was destined to stop you anyways. Another plus to going alone with this hand from the 2 seat is the Ts is taken out of the action, so that's one less trump you need to worry about. So yeah, I am asking you--imploring you--to go alone with 2 trump without the right, but it's the very best possible two trump sans Right loner in the game! If the right bower is buried you're golden. Plus you're already down 0-3. Things aren't exactly starting out so hot. A 4 point sweep could really help here, but even if you can't sweep this hand makes a point often enough. Honestly tho, even at 0-0 or 6-6 go alone! This underrated hand is worth it.



26) Your team is down 9-6. You're the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_A-C)

You hold (Card_J-C), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_9-H)

ANSWER: Go alone! You're down 9-6. It's hail mary time. This hand isn't as bad as it looks. All you really need is the Ad to be buried to have a shot. Trump the first lead with the Ac. Lead the Jc to hopefully clear out trump, then close your eyes, say a prayer to the euchre gods, and play the Kd. I've made this desperation loner often enough to believe in it. Sometimes the world needs a hero. You're down 9-6. Let that hero be you.



27) The score is 4-4. You're in seat 2.

The dealer upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-D), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_9-S)

ANSWER: Order it up. When you only block 1 out of 3 suits in the 2nd round, Left + 1 and an off Ace is a must order. While this hand is marginal it is still too strong to allow seat 1 a chance at a 2nd round loner sweep.



28) The score is 4-4. You're in seat 2.

The dealer upcard is the (Card_9-H)

You hold (Card_J-D), (Card_10-H), (Card_A-C), (Card_Q-C), (Card_J-S)

ANSWER: Pass. Never call marginal when you have all suits blocked and this hand qualifies as marginal. Another benefit to passing here is you'll never block your partner's loner. That's the drawback to ordering in hand 27) but in that hand making sure seat 1 never gets a chance at a 2nd round loner was a more important priority.



29) The score is 2-2. You're in the 3rd seat. The upcard is the (Card_10-S)

You hold (Card_K-S), (Card_J-S), (Card_9-S), (Card_K-H), (Card_Q-D)

ANSWER: Order it up. It's a marginal 3rd seat call that can easily go set, especially if seat 1 can't lead trump. 3rd seat is such a tough spot for reasons I've already talked about. This hand actually represents close to the bottom of your calling range. Basically "Right & 2 trump + no off suit help" is a good proxy for the bottom. If all I had was Left & 2 + nothing else I would pass. Having close to a nothing hand in the 2nd round to help your partner out also helps make this a call, but I wouldn't be excited about it.



30) The score is 0-0. You're in the 1 seat. The upcard is the (Card_Q-S)

Your partner orders the dealer up from 3rd.

You hold (Card_A-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_A-H), (Card_9-H)

You lead the (Card_A-D), 2 seat plays the (Card_Q-C), your partner follows suit with the (Card_K-D), and the dealer follows suit with the (Card_10-D)

What should you lead next?

ANSWER: I'm disappointed that so many people........got this right! Yes, lead the 9d. With seat 2 being void in diamonds and the dealer playing a low diamond, it is very likely the dealer has another diamond. Remember the dealer already had a chance to create a void when he was ordered up so when you see one diamond from him you'll probably see another unless the action suggests otherwise but in this case the action is screaming the dealer has another diamond. So leading the 9d is your best chance to give your partner the lead and your team's best chance at getting 2 points here, something you have a good shot at given that your partner has a strong hand in trump and you have all the aces. Leading another ace would be too dangerous here since you could easily be leading to the dealer's void and your partner will probably throw off. Not a healthy dynamic for getting 2 points.

Sadly what will almost predictably happen in real life is you will double lead the 9d, and your partner--who will probably give you a dirty look--won't realize what's going on and either throw off and ruin the play or trump so high that it blows up his hand and your team's opportunity at 2 points. But hey, this quiz is more about you making the right play than adjusting for suboptimal partners, although the latter is certainly a worthwhile topic.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

irishwolf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:20 am

To all those who did the Quiz:

Realize this is not grade school where there is ONE right answer. The correct answer is - where you achieve your objective according to what occur from your partners the Majority of the time (statistically). And that is severely lacking for each or at least most of the answers. And I probably agreed with Wes (at least in part) than most who did the Quiz.

But it is great fuel for further discussion.

STARTING NEW THREAD.

IRISHWOLF

Richardb02
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:12 pm

Thank you Wes for the Advanced Euchre Quiz and your explanations. It was especially entertaining and educational to read the posts as you and Irishwolf defended your decisions.

It was an advanced quiz. My basic system only addressed 4 of the 30 questions completely. My "fuzzy system" (do you remember fuzzy math) and "card sense" helped me to agree with your decisions half the time. 50% agreement is lousy but to me, quizzes are learning tools, not a test of my value. It's a parallel to getting euchred! You don't like the feelings but it is an opportunity to re-evaluate your analysis. I concluded that I have not been challenged by competition nearly as much as your quiz challenged me. The interchange between you and Irishwolf took it to an even higher level.

Your quiz, answers and defenses has guided me to my next Euchre project:
Advanced Situational Analysis:
Score, Relative
Behind by 3 or more
Ahead by 3 or more
Blocking Hands
Evaluate Bowers
Euchre Hand
Evaluate Round 2
The Upside of passing
Hitting your partner

Thank you again.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:11 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:12 pm
Thank you Wes for the Advanced Euchre Quiz and your explanations.
Your welcome Richard.

Naturally any particular quiz answer can be debatable, but there are many underlying themes of this quiz that are not debatable, and that's really what's important. At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I wanted to give people a window into how the very best players in the world think. Below I'll delineate some of those key themes to help widen that window.

1) Top players always think defensively. Every card in your hand matters, and it is often the cards you don't have that drive your action. Hands 2,4,8,10,12,13,21,22,24, & 27 illustrate this concept in action.

But lets dive a little deeper and go back to hand 10 for a second.

10) Your team is up 4-2. You're in the 1 seat. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-S)

You have (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-H)

Here's how the average player thinks, "I have 3 low trump and nothing else, the upcard is an As. I could easily go set. There's no way I'm ordering this up." And If it gets to the 2nd round: "I have nothing therefore I pass."

Ok here's how a world class player thinks: "If I pass and my opponents turn down the As, I am going to have to donate in the 2nd round and call next with no trump because there is no way I'm putting my team in jeopardy and passing to the 2 seat when I block nothing and have nothing. Since my team's prospects are better if I challenge the dealer's As with my 3 low trump, I'm calling spades in the first round instead."

But now let's change the hand a tad. Let's say we have this hand in the 1 seat instead:

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_J-H)

Now the expert will pass in the first round, and if it gets passed around the expert will grit his teeth and call hearts in the 2nd round. Notice how dicey that 2nd round call is. You're going against Hoyle with just two trump, and no off aces. And you're gonna have to lead off the turned down suit! Such a weak holding that can easily go set. The expert knows all this and calls anyways. Why? Because as marginal as this hand is it can still get lucky and score a point, and the gamble/risk is worth it becuz the risk of passing and handing the ball off to the 2 seat with a hand that only blocks 1 out of the 3 remaining suits is greater.

2) When the chips are down top players go into MAKE PLAYS mode and increase the variance of the game. See hands 23 & 25. Ever seen what happens when a very well coached football team does when they are a large underdog? They increase the variance of the game big time. More homerun throws, passing more on first down, more trick plays, going for it on 4th down more, more sell out blitzes, DBs gambling and jumping routes hoping they guess right, defensive players trying to strip the ball more instead of making the fundamental tackle, etc. In short, when you know your opponent is the big favorite, you wanna up the variance big time, trying to change the nature of the game where a few big plays decide it.

Top euchre players do the same thing. In hand 23 your team is down 0-5. You're a big underdog, before the cards were dealt your team had approximately 18% equity. Now you have the perfect gambler's loner to try to flip the script. There isn't a top player in the world that is just calling here. Yeah if you go set you're now down 0-7 with 8% equity, but if you make that sweep, your team is BACK with 40% equity--a real chance to win the game.

Let's look at hand 25, my controversial 2 trump, no Right, loner. Your team is down 0-3. Before the cards were dealt your team was roughly a 2-1 underdog to win this game with 34% equity. Is it really that crazy to go for the gusto here.

Bottom line: Expert players "do not go gentle into that good night". They "rage, rage against the dying of the light"! When the game is not going their way and their team is down, they play like rabid, feral animals backed into a corner. It's fight or flight time, and they ain't flighting.

3) Hail Mary loners. See hands, 9, 17, 26. When your team is down 9-6/9-7, you're only one play away from winning it. In those spots top players are gonna throw every hail mary conceivably possible. Who cares how many endzone interceptions you throw. Always play to win. An expert player is the most dangerous player in the world down 9-6/9-7. Be dangerous my friend.

4) Always properly evaluate your hand. Again, every card matters. See hands 3, 7, 16, 18. Top players don't call and fight for a point when they have strong euchre hands, I.E. hands with everything blocked with nearly 2 tricks in every suit (except when your opponent is at 9). Don't make that mistake. Think about how bad you'd feel going set calling in hand 16 from the toughest seat in the game fighting for a point, when you have a nice euchre hand. Same with hand 18. You crush the deck with a strong 2nd round loner to boot, and yet many players would reflexively call with 2 bowers and an off ace. Also, properly evaluating your hand plays a key role in understanding the crucial difference between hand 27 and 28.

5) Don't be afraid to think outside the box. Don't just question the assumptions of others, question your own assumptions too. Hands 1, 19, and 30 illustrate this theme. Hand 1: It's not that people are not smart enough to figure out that you have more tournament winning equity going up 8-0 vs winning the game 10-0. They are. It's the fact that people never even bother to think about it. That's the real crime. They just assume going alone is the right play. When you point out why they are wrong they usually get it. Hand 19, we are all taught not to lead a bower in that spot. But it really isn't about what's right or wrong. Just always be open to arguments against conventional thinking/strategy. Especially when those arguments come from people you know take the game very seriously. Hand 30, most people reflexively know not to double lead their partner non-trump before trump has been played, and yet that's exactly what you need to do in that spot. Always be on the look out for "exceptions to the rule". They happen a lot in card games. Top players try to know as many exceptions and counterintuitive strategies as possible. They're always thinking about the game. Whether that's healthy or not is outside the scope of this discussion. :)

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