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Would you pass since you have an excellent chance to euchre the opponent as well as a decent 2nd round bid in hearts?
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Richardb02
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
- Location: Florida
Order Up or...
I'm in Seat 1 and up 4-3
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My hand
Would you pass since you have an excellent chance to euchre the opponent as well as a decent 2nd round bid in hearts?
Up
cardMy hand
Would you pass since you have an excellent chance to euchre the opponent as well as a decent 2nd round bid in hearts?
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Don
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:33 am
I would order and lead the right. My next lead would be the 10 of spades. I’m hoping my partner would have the ace of spades. There is little chance the dealer would call diamonds. By waiting for next, you risk being euchred as you would have a much weaker hand.
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RedDuke
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am
I too would order up in this situation. Considering what you're holding, it is pretty unlikely that the dealer is going to pick up the King unless he is holding something like all of the remaining trumps. If that is the case, then you aren't going to be able to euchre them anyway.
It's also unlikely that you're going to get euchred if you do order up (especially if you follow Don's advice and lead the right for the first trick). Unless one of the opponents has three trump, you've probably got three sure tricks in your hand. Depending on how you play this and what's in your partner's hand, you can probably get two points by ordering up easier than you can by euchring the opponents given that a pickup is unlikely.
Honestly though, I'd actually order up and go alone. There are nine cards out of play on a lone attempt. If one of those is the Ace of Spades, you might actually be very pleased with the results. You're unlikely to get set on such a play so it might be worth trying for four points. I've made loners on much weaker hands than the one you show.
It's also unlikely that you're going to get euchred if you do order up (especially if you follow Don's advice and lead the right for the first trick). Unless one of the opponents has three trump, you've probably got three sure tricks in your hand. Depending on how you play this and what's in your partner's hand, you can probably get two points by ordering up easier than you can by euchring the opponents given that a pickup is unlikely.
Honestly though, I'd actually order up and go alone. There are nine cards out of play on a lone attempt. If one of those is the Ace of Spades, you might actually be very pleased with the results. You're unlikely to get set on such a play so it might be worth trying for four points. I've made loners on much weaker hands than the one you show.
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Richardb02
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
- Location: Florida
(Your reply was prescient! I passed, dealer passed, I bid hearts and I was euchred! FYI the hands went:
slough slough Winner S1
Winner S2
Winner S2
Winner S1
Lost Winner S2
I actually wrote it off because Seat 2 had 3 trump. Bad split of trump. Bad appraisal.
Upon further examination, I had a stronger hand at Round 1 than Round 2. So your guidance was spot on once you understand how to evaluate a hand.
That leads to my next question. Don Lund, creator of Ohio Euchre strongly discourages Bidding Point Systems (BPS). No where on the forum is there any discussion about BPS. So BPS is dissed on ohioeuchre (OE). However, my journey of learning Euchre in the past 1.5 years and based mostly on the lessons of ohioeuchre have lead me to use a BPS.
Even as a beginner I found the base BPS at thesprucecrafts.com, was lacking in details. But every lesson I learned at OE, was easily adapted to my BPS. So my BPS reflects every lesson and every post at OE.
Experienced players may prefer avoiding a BPS but newer players and/or players not playing mega-games each week, could benefit from a BPS, IMO. BPS allows the Bidder to evaluate many hands with a simple analysis instead of remembering dozens of hands.
This particular hand is particularly appropriate. The evaluation in R1 is 3.25. If Dealer passes, the evaluation is 2.75. So Don's appraisal that I had a stronger hand in R1 than R2 matches my BPS. Why did I miss this? I was focused on a post about passing when in S1 if you can euchre the opponent. I'm not casting blame. I am only explaining what was going through my mind.If I had stuck to my BPS, I would have bid in R1.
So, back to my question. Are there people who will think through my BPS, Bidding Point System, on ohioeuchre with me?
slough slough Winner S1 Winner S2 Winner S2 Winner S1 Lost Winner S2I actually wrote it off because Seat 2 had 3 trump. Bad split of trump. Bad appraisal.
Upon further examination, I had a stronger hand at Round 1 than Round 2. So your guidance was spot on once you understand how to evaluate a hand.
That leads to my next question. Don Lund, creator of Ohio Euchre strongly discourages Bidding Point Systems (BPS). No where on the forum is there any discussion about BPS. So BPS is dissed on ohioeuchre (OE). However, my journey of learning Euchre in the past 1.5 years and based mostly on the lessons of ohioeuchre have lead me to use a BPS.
Even as a beginner I found the base BPS at thesprucecrafts.com, was lacking in details. But every lesson I learned at OE, was easily adapted to my BPS. So my BPS reflects every lesson and every post at OE.
Experienced players may prefer avoiding a BPS but newer players and/or players not playing mega-games each week, could benefit from a BPS, IMO. BPS allows the Bidder to evaluate many hands with a simple analysis instead of remembering dozens of hands.
This particular hand is particularly appropriate. The evaluation in R1 is 3.25. If Dealer passes, the evaluation is 2.75. So Don's appraisal that I had a stronger hand in R1 than R2 matches my BPS. Why did I miss this? I was focused on a post about passing when in S1 if you can euchre the opponent. I'm not casting blame. I am only explaining what was going through my mind.If I had stuck to my BPS, I would have bid in R1.
So, back to my question. Are there people who will think through my BPS, Bidding Point System, on ohioeuchre with me?
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irishwolf
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
I would have gone alone on that hand. Your partner could have the AS or KS and the other buried. Your partner is not much help to make a help. It is less than 50% that you will make a sweep. You lead the Right and if only the dealer has trump, you have to back out of going alone and lead your low spade. Low odds of being euchred unless the dealer has AS/KS.
However, i would like to know how your evaluate the hand as 3.25 tricks in Diamonds? No way less that 3.00 or 3.0 at best as probable tricks when you are ordering the dealer and he will have 3 trumps 25% of the time. And for evaluating 2.75 hands in Hearts is highly erroneous assumption. You have 2.00 tricks, both bowers, that is it.
For getting euchred if your partner had no trump on trick 1, you are forced to lead the other bower, then PRAY!
"This particular hand is particularly appropriate. The evaluation in R1 is 3.25. If Dealer passes, the evaluation is 2.75. So Don's appraisal that I had a stronger hand in R1 than R2 matches my BPS"
Irishwolf
However, i would like to know how your evaluate the hand as 3.25 tricks in Diamonds? No way less that 3.00 or 3.0 at best as probable tricks when you are ordering the dealer and he will have 3 trumps 25% of the time. And for evaluating 2.75 hands in Hearts is highly erroneous assumption. You have 2.00 tricks, both bowers, that is it.
For getting euchred if your partner had no trump on trick 1, you are forced to lead the other bower, then PRAY!
"This particular hand is particularly appropriate. The evaluation in R1 is 3.25. If Dealer passes, the evaluation is 2.75. So Don's appraisal that I had a stronger hand in R1 than R2 matches my BPS"
Irishwolf
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Richardb02
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
- Location: Florida
I see the light. Not only should I order up, but I should have gone alone. I claim momentary insanity.
I have butchered my BPS (Bidding Point System). It would have indicated a loner if I had used it correctly.
Let me correct my evaluation:
1.0 Right
.75 Left
.50 Qd
.25 Seat 1
.75 2 Voids
.75 3 Trump (I missed this "Power Hand" adjustment to get 3.25)
4.00 Total (3.75 points is generally enough for a Lone)
Irishwolf, I'm not following your statement, "However, i would like to know how your evaluate the hand as 3.25 tricks in Diamonds? No way less that 3.00 or 3.0 at best as probable tricks when you are ordering the dealer and he will have 3 trumps 25% of the time." If you are recommending a Lone, then you see a path to 5 tricks allowing for an acceptable risk of being euchred.
I appreciate everyone's input.
I have butchered my BPS (Bidding Point System). It would have indicated a loner if I had used it correctly.
Let me correct my evaluation:
1.0 Right
.75 Left
.50 Qd
.25 Seat 1
.75 2 Voids
.75 3 Trump (I missed this "Power Hand" adjustment to get 3.25)
4.00 Total (3.75 points is generally enough for a Lone)
Irishwolf, I'm not following your statement, "However, i would like to know how your evaluate the hand as 3.25 tricks in Diamonds? No way less that 3.00 or 3.0 at best as probable tricks when you are ordering the dealer and he will have 3 trumps 25% of the time." If you are recommending a Lone, then you see a path to 5 tricks allowing for an acceptable risk of being euchred.
I appreciate everyone's input.
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RedDuke
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am
Richard, I'm not so sure about your math. In this case, you know for certain that the left will take a trick as the only card that can stop it (the right) is also in your hand. Therefore, you know that they will never both fall on the same trick. Thus, I'd alter your numbers to assign a 1.0 rating to both of them.
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Richardb02
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
- Location: Florida
RedDuke, your point is 100% accurate. I will use it as an additional refinement to improve my BPS (Bidding Point System).RedDuke wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:59 pmRichard, I'm not so sure about your math. In this case, you know for certain that the left will take a trick as the only card that can stop it (the right) is also in your hand. Therefore, you know that they will never both fall on the same trick. Thus, I'd alter your numbers to assign a 1.0 rating to both of them.
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irishwolf
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm
Richard,
Playing euchre today, dealer goes alone, on my left. He trumps with QD, then leads JD, JH followed by JC and 10C for four points. Neither my partner nor I had a stopper. Very similar to your hand except at the dealer position which is not quite as good as going alone at eldest. But it shows the 'possibility of making four. He or she it was, got lucky but you never know.
Ha Ha, though we won the game!
Irishwolf
Playing euchre today, dealer goes alone, on my left. He trumps with QD, then leads JD, JH followed by JC and 10C for four points. Neither my partner nor I had a stopper. Very similar to your hand except at the dealer position which is not quite as good as going alone at eldest. But it shows the 'possibility of making four. He or she it was, got lucky but you never know.
Ha Ha, though we won the game!
Irishwolf