JACK DIAMONDS IS UP SCORE 9 TO 9

Ask questions, discuss and debate your strategies, euchre polls and more
Post Reply
irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

JACK DIAMONDS IS UP SCORE 9 TO 9

Post by irishwolf » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:37 pm

The Jack of Diamonds is up and the score is 9 to 9. You hold JH QD KS 9S QC and you order your partner (yes did). The AH is led and you trump with the QD, 3rd seat plays QH, dealer plays 9C.

What do you lead to the next trick?



RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:16 am

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:37 pm
The Jack of Diamonds is up and the score is 9 to 9. You hold JH QD KS 9S QC and you order your partner (yes did). The AH is led and you trump with the QD, 3rd seat plays QH, dealer plays 9C.

What do you lead to the next trick?
The (Card_Q-C) . Odds are that your partner was making a void or he was signalling that he has the (Card_A-C) . Even if your opponents end up taking that trick, you should be fine.

The reason is that you have the left. The right is in your partner's hand. As long as both of them don't fall on the same trick, you've made a point. Hopefully, even if the opponents end up taking the second trick, they won't lead trump back. If they do and your partner only has one trump, you might be in trouble.

Usually when someone throws off like that, they're either creating a second void for themselves or leading the low card from a doubleton. Thus, either your partner is now void in clubs or he had something like (Card_A-C) (Card_9-C) . Either way, if you lead clubs, that's your best chance of him taking the trick.

You don't want to lead the left because if your partner only has the right, then he'll be forced to take your left and you'll both be void in trump.

User avatar
Dlan
Site Admin
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:08 pm

Post by Dlan » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:57 am

I wish I had a dollar for every time an online partner has ordered the right then lead the left.
If your dreams don’t scare you then they're not big enough

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:45 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:16 am
The (Card_Q-C) . Odds are that your partner was making a void or he was signalling that he has the (Card_A-C) . Even if your opponents end up taking that trick, you should be fine.
Your partner is the dealer. He already had a chance to create a void when he was ordered up. This means when he throws off a club odds are he has another club and you can't be sure it's the Ac. Your best lead is to your partner's void. Once your partner shows the 9c, he is now much more likely to be void in spades than clubs, so lead a spade. For another example of this dynamic see #21 on this site's quiz.

Also here's a quote from this site on this topic:
"It is important to note here that the rules change if your partner is the dealer. Why? Because the dealer has had the opportunity to short-suit their hand, creating a void. Therefore, when they throw off, they are likely throwing from a suit in which they hold two cards. Say hearts is trump. You lead the ace of diamonds and your partner (as dealer) throws off a club. The best way to get back to them is play a spade, not a club! They most likely will be void in spades, so leading that suit will give them an opportunity to trump in and take the trick."
Source: https://www.ohioeuchre.com/E_Communicate1.php

jblowery
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:02 am

This reminds me of how irritated I get when the score is 9-9 and my partner is the dealer and turns down the upcard. I actually had a game where my opponent turned down the upcard and then my partner also passed after that. Then the opponent called and took it.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:10 am

Why would you be irritated if the dealer turned down the upcard? You had a chance to assist and the score 9 to 9. If all you have is two medium trumps and have nothing to run to, you should have ordered! Not being critical but it does come to mind that dealer's partner should be assisting on marginal hand at this score.

This reminds me of how irritated I get when the score is 9-9 and my partner is the dealer and turns down the upcard.

Richardb02
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:13 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:37 pm
The Jack of Diamonds is up and the score is 9 to 9. You hold JH QD KS 9S QC and you order your partner (yes did). The AH is led and you trump with the QD, 3rd seat plays QH, dealer plays 9C.

What do you lead to the next trick?
I refined my game by studying ohioeuchre, so I agree with Wes that you should not lead back a club (the suit that Dealer discarded).

But I suggest that Dlan (the ohioeuchre creator)'s point that the tendency for players to lead the Left is a huge problem!

I cannot think of a concise recommendation to not lead the Left. I realize that experienced players like Wes, Irish & Dlan, would not even consider that option. I have played enough games to know better, by trial and error. But I cannot concisely explain the reason. I could slough it off by saying, you will learn by playing. But I am not satisfied by that explanation.

Please help me (and newcomers) understand the principle. To begin, I suggest, "give your partner a chance [to take a trick]." If you don't have power in trump (3 trump in general, more to the point of this hand, a trump remaining in your hand after leading trump), then do not lead a trump.

Applying my suggested principle, to this hand, do not lead the Left, because you could waste your partner's Right and fail to give your Partner a chance, to have his Right take a trick.

The next decision is do not lead a club, because the Dealer's discard does not signal a void and you fail to give your partner a chance (to trump a different suit (or win a trick with a Boss). That eliminates the Jh, and the Qc. So lead a Spade as recommended by Wes, who quoted ohioeuchre.

To get back to my original questions about the principle, does the following guideline make sense:

"Give your partner a chance [to take a trick]." If you don't have power in trump, (3 trump in general and/or a trump remaining in your hand after leading trump), then do not lead a trump?

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:29 pm

"Give your partner a chance [to take a trick]." If you don't have power in trump, (3 trump in general and/or a trump remaining in your hand after leading trump), then do not lead a trump?
That is generally the rule that I follow, especially if I'm the one that ordered. It's usually the job of the declarer to lead their team through the hand. If you lead trump while only having one in your hand, you're both stripping yourself of any chance to get back into the hand and might also be stripping your partner of any trump that he has.

In this case, you need two more tricks to win the game. You know where the right is (in your partner's hand), which is one guaranteed trick. That's also the only card that can beat the left that you're still holding. Thus, all you need to do here to win the game is make sure that the left and right will not fall on the same trick.

What you don't know is if your partner has any trump besides the right. If he does, then you would still win if you led the left but if the right is all he has, then you might be leaving all the remaining trumps (and maybe even aces). Thus, you want to lead something that either he can take with a trump or take with the Ace.

In most cases, you don't want to lead trump if it's all you've got. Maybe one exception would be if your partner is the dealer and ordered the right into his own hand. Usually if the dealer picks up, he's going to have a couple trump. On a first round call, the dealer is the most likely player to have three trump (that's why you want to have a pretty strong hand to order the dealer up if you're in first or third seat).

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:23 pm

You answered your own question:

Applying my suggested principle, to this hand, do not lead the Left, because you could waste your partner's Right and fail to give your Partner a chance, to have his Right take a trick.

Besides, why lead the left if you have no off suit aces. You only need one point to in the game and you have one trick in. It would be be suicide to lead the left. If I am the opponent and win the next trick - I WILL FOR SURE LEAD YOU TRUMP to catch both bowers! Only then need one trump and an off suit ace to win the game.

Irishwolf

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:34 pm

I also intended to add, what is the probability your partner only has the Right?

You might think you are safe but guess again. 24% the dealer only has the right. So yes 76% of the time it would be okay. However, 100% if you don't lead. Why oh why, take that chance. 1 in 4 hands you will regret it. You could lead spades, or clubs. If he sloughs the QC, might have the AC or be void. You ordered the dealer - so statistically he has three off suit cards - one doubleton and one singleton, among other holdings. But you don't know that.

Strange things can happen (devil is in the bush) in the Short-run. Play it as safe as you can and don't lead the Left.

Irishwolf

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:20 am

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:34 pm
I also intended to add, what is the probability your partner only has the Right?

You might think you are safe but guess again. 24% the dealer only has the right. So yes 76% of the time it would be okay. However, 100% if you don't lead. Why oh why, take that chance. 1 in 4 hands you will regret it. You could lead spades, or clubs. If he sloughs the QC, might have the AC or be void. You ordered the dealer - so statistically he has three off suit cards - one doubleton and one singleton, among other holdings. But you don't know that.

Strange things can happen (devil is in the bush) in the Short-run. Play it as safe as you can and don't lead the Left.

Irishwolf
Sadly, I had this exact situation happen yesterday. Partner ordered the right to my hand, grabbed the first trick, led the left and left us both with no trump. We got euchred and lost the game because of that!

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:46 pm

Oh my! Better get a new partner, insane.

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:23 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:46 pm
Oh my! Better get a new partner, insane.
Sadly, it seems that 90% of the players that you meet online have worse euchre-playing skills than a drunken skunk.

Richardb02
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:22 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:34 pm
I also intended to add, what is the probability your partner only has the Right?

You might think you are safe but guess again. 24% the dealer only has the right. So yes 76% of the time it would be okay. However, 100% if you don't lead. Why oh why, take that chance. 1 in 4 hands you will regret it. You could lead spades, or clubs. If he sloughs the QC, might have the AC or be void. You ordered the dealer - so statistically he has three off suit cards - one doubleton and one singleton, among other holdings. But you don't know that.

Strange things can happen (devil is in the bush) in the Short-run. Play it as safe as you can and don't lead the Left.

Irishwolf
I really appreciate that you use probability to drive points home. Do you have a source that you look up the probabilities or do you calculate the probabilities?

I tried to calculate the probabilities on this hand, with my absolutely beginner-level knowledge:
We start with 24 cards.
We have seen 6 cards, leaving 18 cards.
We have seen 3 trumps, out of 7, leaving 4 trumps in 18 unseen cards. Therefore there is a 4/18 probability of drawing a trump for each card drawn.
Conversely, there is a 14/18 possibility of not drawing a trump.
Partner receives 5 cards. So to calculate him not having trump:
14/18 x 14/18 x 14/18 x 14/18 x 14/18= 28.4%

We are close but have different conclusions.

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:13 pm

There would be 4 unseen cards in each opponents' hand and 3 in your partner's after the first trick. That's 11 unseen cards. Then four in the kitty. That's 15 unseen cards. Not sure where you're getting 18.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:21 am

RICHARD,

Don't let this frustrate you - work through it slowly if you want to know:

I calculate them, no table of values I know of. Using what is called Combinatorics. For example you want to know how many 5 card combinations can you get from 24 cards. The formula is 24C5 which means that you take the numerator, multiply it by like this as you have 5 cards: 24 x 23 x 22 x 21 x 20 = (you do the math call the value "A") divided by the denominator 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = (you do the math call this "B") Now divide A by B and you will get 42,504 possible 5 card hands. Just try it!

You have to get that concept down before proceeding to more complex questions (like what is the probability of any player having the Jack of Hearts from 18 unknown cards (as you know the upcard and your five cards). But the formula for having no trump with 4 possible (starting before the Jack was ordered) is (4C0 x 14C5) // 18C5 = 23.4% (I rounded up to get 24%). You can calculate 1, 2, 3, 4 or 0 trump cards to any player. But remember, 'probability' is the likelihood not certainty. So you look at this, 23.45 of many hands dealt (called the Law of Large Numbers, meaning this value if you do 400 hands with the same set up that the dealer has, you will come close to 23.4% no trump to the dealer.) But I don't always go by the statistics when I play, it's in the background. Sometimes I even go against the odds because of score, or by sensing what information the opponents give me. Sometimes, I regret that too.

A good try RedDuke, but you will drive yourself nuts like you are doing it.

They do make calculators if you know what you are doing. I like math and statistics but might be boring to most. It's not rock science! But a very powerful tool. It valuable at any point in a game and it works with any card game on combinations you want to know. And believe this or NOT - what players do with cards is very more unpredictable that card combinations, lol. Lots of players won't tell their secrets. Before long I will be publish a book that will be in more detail about euchre, strategy with hands played out, card combinations, among other things. There is not much available but Ohio Euchre is a good start.

I really appreciate that you use probability to drive points home. Do you have a source that you look up the probabilities or do you calculate the probabilities?

Irish wolf

Richardb02
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:22 am

RedDuke wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:13 pm
There would be 4 unseen cards in each opponents' hand and 3 in your partner's after the first trick. That's 11 unseen cards. Then four in the kitty. That's 15 unseen cards. Not sure where you're getting 18.
The difference is the starting point. Your starting point is after the first hand, so your numbers are correct from that perspective.

My starting point (as well as Irish, based on his post), is after the deal. So there are 5 unseen cards in 2 opponents' hands, 4 in Partner's hand and 4 in the kitty, for a total of 18.

Richardb02
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am

So my first takeaway is, the probability of your partner playing correctly is much poorer than the probability of the cards! So don't let probability calculations frustrate you. LOL.

Second, I am not only basic in probability theory but rusty (45 years of non-use). In basic terms the formula says:
With card 1, dealer has a 14/18th possibility of not receiving a trump
With card 2, dealer has a 13/17th possibility of not receiving a trump
(that was my error, I failed to reduce the unseen cards to 17 from 18, and to 16 from 17 etc.)
So in simple math:
14/18 x 13/17 x 12/16 x 11/15 = 240,240/1,028,160 = 23.4%
Which matches Irish's calculated percentage

Was I just lucky?

But the formula for having no trump with 4 possible (starting before the Jack was ordered) is (4C0 x 14C5) // 18C5 = 23.4%

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:57 am

It is a little more complex than, ". . . the probability of your partner playing correctly is much poorer than the probability of the cards!"

So I have to conclude, IT ALL DEPENDS!

IRISHWOLF

Richardb02
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:14 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:57 am
It is a little more complex than, ". . . the probability of your partner playing correctly is much poorer than the probability of the cards!"

So I have to conclude, IT ALL DEPENDS!

IRISHWOLF
Of course, it all depends. I agree on a serious level. LOL though means Laugh Out Loud. :lol: My remark was more on a humorous level.

Irishwolfe explained, in detailed probability analysis, how to calculate the probability that Dealer/Partner had no trumps, except the Jack, that he had to pick up because Seat 2 ordered. But his opening words wisely guided me to:
"Don't let this frustrate you - work through it slowly if you want to know." He is well aware that was TMI (too much information) unless someone is really interested.

(I am trying to keep this short and interesting to most board participants.) I was interested, anal and determined to understand the numbers. My 28.4% was wrong. Irish's 23.4% is correct. I even worked out 24.2% as the probability of Dealer having no other trump, after the 1st hand is played. But, what is gained from all of the math? The result is about a 1 in 4 chance that the Dealer only has the Jack that he picked up. Any seasoned player can sense that. All that work for no gain is humorous to me! :lol:

Then to make it even more humorous, based on the opening of this thread, most players fail to consider that they may be euchred by leading the Left. In fact, leading the Left probably (and arguably) happens, 50% of the time! So we go through all the analysis and our partner's play has twice the impact than the actual chance of the cards. To me that was doubly humorous! :lol: :lol:

So please forgive me for my humor.

Let's get serious again. I offer this guidance:

If you see a possible way of losing the game, play accordingly ("It all depends"). But be aware of the ugly under-belly of "it's a partnership game:" Your partner's play will have twice the impact of your precise calculations!

That leads to serious guideline #2:

Don't get too carried away by analysis and don't get too upset at your partner's wrong play. Guard your attitude. If you are mad, you may fail to see there is still a path to win the hand. If that happens, you cost your team the game and not your partner.

I confess that I have been guilty of my attitude costing my team the game.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:26 pm

Thanks for the humor! We should never take ourselves too serious. It causes stress and stress can impact our health. LOL (Lots of Laughs!)

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:20 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:26 pm
Thanks for the humor! We should never take ourselves too serious. It causes stress and stress can impact our health. LOL (Lots of Laughs!)
Ultimately, euchre is a game designed to have fun... to relieve stress, not cause it!

Richardb02
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:29 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
You can find the emoticons under the Euchre Cards

jblowery
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:04 am

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:10 am
Why would you be irritated if the dealer turned down the upcard? You had a chance to assist and the score 9 to 9. If all you have is two medium trumps and have nothing to run to, you should have ordered! Not being critical but it does come to mind that dealer's partner should be assisting on marginal hand at this score.

This reminds me of how irritated I get when the score is 9-9 and my partner is the dealer and turns down the upcard.
There shoudl be very few cases where the dealer turns down the upcard and the score is 9-9. I guess there could be exceptions, such as when they are clearly stronger in every other suite. The problem with turning it down though is that you give 1st seat the ability to call whatever they want. There is no risk in getting euchered. You still lose 1 pt. whether you called it or not. 1st seat should definitely call something when the score is 9-9 so the dealer needs needs to think about this when they turn down a card. I'm picking up whatever it is; probably 90% of the time.

jblowery
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:05 am

You are correct that 2nd seat could assist. Is it 2nd seats job to order up though if they have 1 or 2 trumps in their hand (with score 9-9)?

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:44 am

jblowery wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:05 am
You are correct that 2nd seat could assist. Is it 2nd seats job to order up though if they have 1 or 2 trumps in their hand (with score 9-9)?
Normally, you don't want to order the right into your partner's hand unless you have at least three trump. The reason being that you don't want to mess up a possible lone. At a score of 9-9, this isn't an issue. In that case, yes, order up.

Honestly, it might be a good idea to order up your partner with a score of 9-9 no matter what you have. You already explained the reason, jblowery. If you pass and your partner passes, then first seat is going to order up whatever suit is best for him unless he's a total moron. Odds are very, very good that he has nothing if he passed. If he's got anything that has any chance of taking three tricks, he'd have ordered up the dealer. There's no point sandbagging your opponent at that score unless he's holding something that's very strong in both the turn suit and something else. Even then, there's not a whole lot of point in passing with the hopes of euchring the opponents if they order. If he is holding that hand, you've probably lost anyway but you still have a better chance of winning by ordering up (and thus putting a trump into your partner's hand) than if you let first seat order up in round two.

My take from this is that at a score of 9-9, you should order your partner up no matter what is in your hand.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:07 pm

I don't agree with two things being said in the above two posts. First to jblowery, has to do with 2nd seat ordering the Jack up (jblowery). It is not 2nd seat job to order if you have nothing. You only want to assist with with a marginally weak hand or better. Especially as I said before, you have nothing to run to. The dealer surely is not brain dead - if he has one or more trumps, or even ace(s) and no trump he should be smart enough to do the right thing.

Second point is to the statement, quote below. It would be dumb to assist when you have nothing (DON'T FOOL YOUR PARTNER). You don't know what the dealer has. If I were the dealer, I might have both Jacks in the opposite color and three medium or low in Next. So in that situation, I am turning the Jack down! If my partner had a weak assist, he should have ordered me. The dealer only needs one small trump to go with the Jack up, "two probable tricks" if played correctly.

Honestly, it might be a good idea to order up your partner with a score of 9-9 no matter what you have ....

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:18 pm

To share a good example of 2nd seat assisting, true story. I was at 2nd seat and the JD up, score was 9 to 9. I held all three off suit aces and the 9D. Eldest passed, and I had a weak partner, so I assisted. I just knew he would have turned it down. First seat had Left Ace and 10 and the dealer only had the Jack up.

First seat did exactly what I wanted him to do if he had a strong hand. He led the Left bower, stripped his partner of the KD (QD was buried). My partner won the trick he led back a heart to one of my aces as eldest had to follow suit. I led another ace, eldest trump low and led the AD. He now has no more trump and leads to my other ace. Third seat had the other two jacks.

Very doubtful we would have made a point in any of three other suits. Point is make trump if you can at 9 - 9, it is easier to make a point than getting euchred. To euchre the opponent requires a well coordinated attack by both players!

Irishwolf

RedDuke
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:27 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:07 pm
I don't agree with two things being said in the above two posts. First to jblowery, has to do with 2nd seat ordering the Jack up (jblowery). It is not 2nd seat job to order if you have nothing. You only want to assist with with a marginally weak hand or better. Especially as I said before, you have nothing to run to. The dealer surely is not brain dead - if he has one or more trumps, or even ace(s) and no trump he should be smart enough to do the right thing.

Second point is to the statement, quote below. It would be dumb to assist when you have nothing (DON'T FOOL YOUR PARTNER). You don't know what the dealer has. If I were the dealer, I might have both Jacks in the opposite color and three medium or low in Next. So in that situation, I am turning the Jack down! If my partner had a weak assist, he should have ordered me. The dealer only needs one small trump to go with the Jack up, "two probable tricks" if played correctly.

Honestly, it might be a good idea to order up your partner with a score of 9-9 no matter what you have ....
The argument was that unless eldest is a total moron, he's going to call something in the second round if both you and your partner turn the upcard down. At that score, isn't it better to guarantee that your partner has a trump than outright lose the game when eldest calls whatever he has? The worst that can happen is that you'll get euchred and lose but it's even more likely that you'll lose (because dealer can't pick up the trump) if you pass at the score of 9-9.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:36 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:27 pm
The argument was that unless eldest is a total moron, he's going to call something in the second round if both you and your partner turn the upcard down. At that score, isn't it better to guarantee that your partner has a trump than outright lose the game when eldest calls whatever he has? The worst that can happen is that you'll get euchred and lose but it's even more likely that you'll lose (because dealer can't pick up the trump) if you pass at the score of 9-9.
It's not a sound argument imo. The assumption "it's even more likely that you'll lose (because dealer can't pick up the trump) if you pass at the score of 9-9" is highly questionable to say the least. If you call with nothing in the 2 seat, I strongly doubt the assumption holds up. There's no question that 2 seat has to loosen up at 9-9. Irishwolf's call with 1 trump and 3 off aces is a classic example of a hand you must call from the 2 seat in that spot. Hands like 1 trump, two off aces, two trump and an off ace, a guarded left and nothing else, just the right and nothing else, come to mind. That said general prescriptions make me nervous since sometimes the other cards in your hand can alter one's strategy. But yeah, decent weak hands that you wouldn't order your partner up in normal situations often become obligatory orders from 2 seat at 9-9. Other than that, I feel much safer analyzing this spot on a hand by hand basis vs giving "always order with this" advice.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:46 pm

jblowery wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:05 am
You are correct that 2nd seat could assist. Is it 2nd seats job to order up though if they have 1 or 2 trumps in their hand (with score 9-9)?
Yes, imo 2nd seat is the one who needs to loosen up, not the dealer. For example. Say the upcard is the (Card_A-D)

2nd seat has: (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)

2nd seat not ordering his partner up would be a pretty large mistake. With 2nd seat's holding it is clear his team's best change of winning the game is in diamonds, so he has to make that order and hope for the best.

jblowery
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:05 am

The problem is that the 2nd seat and dealer don't know what the other guy has. You may have nothing but the other one probably does. I'm not a statistician but I bet that most of the time, even if you have nothing in your own hand, you are going to have better odds of getting the point if the dealer just picks it up than letting 1st seat call whatever he/she wants.

Post Reply