Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

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Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 pm

I don't play as much as many on this website plus I don't have a photographic memory. So I took an oversimplified BPS and expanded it with the knowledge that I have gained from this website as well as actual playing experience. It has served me well as a tutorial, checklist and a bidding system as I moved from a rookie to a novice to a confident player against average competition.

This website offers excellent tutorials and an amazing Euchre Test to improve anyone from a beginner to the advanced player. This forum has a number of amazing participants that are willing to share the strategies they use from their vast experiences. These resources will make you a better player from a rookie to a confident tournament player. Go to the "Home" page and join today.

I started with a Bidding System Based on thesprucecrafts.com
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 AKQ Trump
0.25 T9 Trump (Low Trump)
0.75 Off Suit Aces
-.25 for every other card in Ace suit
0.50 is the value of a Singleton Black Ace
0.25 for each Void Suit if 2 or more Trump
0.75 total for 2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand, but Kx min.
2.5 Points indicates a bid [but there is no adjustment for Seat or Score].
The Spruce Crafts simple system ends here

[Don't overthink the system. Keep it simple. The system estimates potential tricks. A Right is worth 1.0 trick It has a 100% chance of taking a trick. Every other value is relative to a Right being worth 1 . The Left has a 75% chance of taking a trick. An A, K or Q of trump has a 50% chance of taking a trick, etc. They are approximations, not precise values. Bidding when you count 2.5 points in your hand is based on 1. Count on your partner for 1 trick. 2. You then need 2 tricks. 3. Euchre is a game of chance. The cards will not always break in your favor. So the oversimplified Spruce Craft system adds a cushion of .5 point to the 2 points if the bidding system could perfectly predict taking 2 tricks.]

[I learned from the ohioeuchre.com tutorials that 100% of the time you need to adjust your bid (and any bidding system) based on your Seat position. Seat 1 has the 1st bid, Seat 4 is the dealer. So even a beginner needs to adjust the BPS for their Seat Position.]

0.00 is the adjustment for Seat 3
[Seat 3 is the toughest seat for a successful bid.].

0.25 is the adjustment for Seat 1
[The logic is that Seat 1 leads 1st, allowing Seat 1 to draw trumps, and that has a value of 0.25 (assuming that you have strength in trumps].

0.50 is the adjustment for Seat 2.
[The logic is that Seat 2 (the Dealer's partner) adds a value of 0.50 to your points because 1. The value of the Up Card going to Dealer is worth 0.25 and the value of your Dealer/ Partner having last play on the 1st trick is worth 0.25].

0.50 is the adjustment for Dealer/ Seat 4.
[The logic is that Seat 4 (the Dealer) adds a value of 0.50 to the dealer's hand. The reasons are: 1. The value of the Dealer getting to play the smallest possible winner on 1st Trick is worth 0.25, and 2. The value of 3 players passing indicates weak hands and that is worth 0.25]
[Note, the value of the Up card and the discard are reflected in the value of the cards, voids and card combinations. These values are not being ignored by the BPS].

[The 2nd most used adjustment is for the 2nd round of bidding].
0.25 Round 2, any Seat
0.75 Round 2, Seat 1, Next Call
0.75 Round 2, Seat 2,Reverse Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 3, Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 4, Reverse Next Call

[Strong combinations are very powerful and deserve additional points].
0.50 for any 3 trump
0.75 for 3 trump and a Bower or 2
1.00 for 3 trump & 2 Boss Trump
1.00 for 4 trump and a Bower or 2

0.50 for:
2 Trump & Singleton Ace
2 Trump with 2 or more Off Suit Aces

0.25 Additions for:
A Bower AND an additional trump
Green Ace

[Likewise, deduct value from your hand in weak situations]:

[Bidding with only 1 trump is difficult]:
-0.50 if you are bidding with only 1 trump

[Seat 1 and 3 have to overcome the value of calling the Up card into the Dealer's hand. If the Up card is 9 or 10 the net value is 0.0(the adjustment for Seat 1 & 3 already accounts for the minimal value of calling a trump card into the dealers hand). QKA hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call a greater amount. A Right hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call an even greater amount].

-0.00 if the Up card is 9T
-0.25 if the Up card is QKA
-0.75 if the Up card is Right

New March 31, 2019
Now add up the points in your hand.
2.25 Points in Seat 1 is enough to call from Seat 1, Round 1 & 2
2.00 Points in Seat 2 is enough to call from Seat 2, Round 1 & 2
2.75 Points in Seat 3 is enough to call from Seat 3, Round 1 & 2
2.00 Points in Seat 4 is enough to call from Seat 4, Round 1 & 2
***** These are the call points for players at the Basic Level. There are definitely more factors to consider. You will find them in BPS - Advanced.

[At this point you can bid your cards relatively confidently. You now need to focus on playing your hand. I literally want you to picture how the hand will play out. The first step is to compare how the actual hand played out to your projection. The 2nd step is to improve your card playing (not changing the BPS). The 3rd step is to adjust visible situations plus or minus 0.25, testing your results and ultimately deciding that the BPS adjustment is profitable or not.]

[Once your understand Partner you can adjust]:
-0.25 for a weak player
+0.25 for a very conservative player (you are bidding for them)

[Let's talk about the fun stuff: Making Alone, Bidding Alone and Euchring Opponents! Note: Euchring Opponents is now in BPS - Advanced]

3.75 Points indicates a probable Alone bid. [A BPS (Bidding Point System) only helps in bidding. You still have to play the hand. DO NOT fall in love with the BPS. Picture, in your mind, how the hand can play out. If you see a path to victory, go for it. 3.75 points indicates that you almost have a lock on taking 3 tricks. Bid Alone. It is great fun. 4 points is almost half the points needed to win the game!]

4.00 Points screams bid Alone. [If you are getting euchred at 4 points, you need to stop focusing on bidding and work on playing the hand.]

[I average 30% success on earning 4 points! It has been as high as 40%! I have calculated a 10% chance of earning 4 points, even if your 5th card is a 9 in the green suit! Bid Alone for fun and profit!!]

Take the score into account:
[Even non-experts need to take the score into account at certain points. This breaks down to 1. your Opponents having 8 or 9 points. In a 10 point game, if they get 1 or 2 more points, they will win. 2. If your opponents have 6 or 7 points, you should consider that they can win with an Alone. 3. If you are behind by 3 or more points, you need to get back into the game. 4. If you are within 1 or 2 points of winning, loosen up a bit].

+0.25 if Opponents have 9 points, loosen up to end the game
-0.25 if Opponents have 8 points, if you are euchred you lose the game
+0.50 if Opponents have 6 or 7 points and it is the second round
+0.25 if the score is at a disadvantage
+0.75 if Donating (Calling/ Biding to protect a lead) is appropriate
+0.25 if you have 9 points (loosen your bid to end the game)
+0.50 if you have 9 points and your opponent has 6 to 9 points

That is the end of the Basics. You can find advanced discussions in "Bidding Point System (BPS) Advanced." But before you go to Advanced, understand the sample hands that follow.

Here are some sample hands to apply the BPS:

EX: Up: (Card_K-H) You (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)
If you are in Seat 1
+0.25 For Seat 1
+1.00 for Right
+0.5 for Qh
+0.75 for As
+0.50 for Ad
+0.25 for 1 void
3.25 Points, exceeds 2.5 points so bid
[See how this hand is analyzed differently in BPS - Advanced.]

EX: Up: (Card_K-H) You (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)
If you are in Seat 2
+0.5 For Seat 2
+1.00 for Right
+0.5 for Qh
+0.75 for As
+0.50 for Ad
+0.25 for 1 void
3.50 Points, exceeds 2.5 points so bid
EX: Up: (Card_K-H) You (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)
If you are in Seat 3
+0.00 For Seat 3
+1.00 for Right
+0.5 for Qh
+0.75 for As
+0.50 for Ad
+0.25 for 1 void
3.00 Points, exceeds 2.75 points so bid
EX: Up: (Card_K-H) You (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)
If you are in Seat 4 (Dealer)
+0.25 For Seat 1
+1.00 for Right
+0.5 for Qh
+0.75 for As
+0.50 for Ad
+0.50 for Kh
+0.25 for 1 void
+0.75 for Strong hand (not described yet)
4.50 Points, exceeds 2.5 points so bid exceeds 3.75 so go Alone

That's a lot to digest. I suggest that you try some sample hands. Post them and I will be glad to work through the system with them. I'm sure everyone will provide me refinements to make this system work even more effectively.
Last edited by Richardb02 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:57 pm, edited 11 times in total.



Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:52 am

A BPS (Bidding Point System) is always flexible enough to reflect your experiences while playing.

Through experience I have found how difficult it is to win with a Singleton Trump. So:
-0.5 when bidding with a Singleton Trump

Likewise I found myself winning too often from Seat 2 and 4 (Dealer)! What do I mean ,win too often? Mathematically if I score 1 point 2 times and get euchred once, I break even superficially. That is a 67% success rate (and a 33% euchred rate)! So, theoretically a 33% failure (euchred) rate would be acceptable, on any particular hand. From experience I find my best results reflect 80-82% success and 15-18% failure.
So:
I order up from Seat 2 with only 2 points.
I order up from Seat 4 (Dealer) with only 2 points.
Those adjustments are based on a neutral core.
This change took me from leaving points on the table and watching Opponents bid (and win and even Euchre), to much better results. Be aware, ordering with 2 points is a "thin bid" as well as "the limit to bid."

The reverse situation happened in Seat 3. Most players, in Seat 1, fail to lead trump to my bid. There is a recent thread on this topic, Worst Euchre Mistake. So until I see Partner lead a trump to my bid in Seat 3:
I increase the points needed to bid to 2.75%.
This change eliminated many 2-3 losses. More importantly, with 2.75 points in my hand, I could confidently bid from Seat 3, with or without help from Partner.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:08 am

From Wes' Advanced Euchre Quiz

2) The score is 0-0. You are the dealer.

The upcard is the (Card_10-C)

You hold (Card_A-D), (Card_K-C), (Card_10-H), (Card_9-H), (Card_9-S)

+0.25 Dealer Position
+0.5 Kc
+0.25 Tc
+0.75 Ad (Reverse Ace)
+0.25 1 Void Suit
2.00 Bid, if you have decided you want to play aggressively. If you are less aggressive make 2.25 points your limit and pass. Note, you may want to raise your limit based on strong opponents to 2.25. If I'm in a losing streak I may use 2.25. I believe cards run in waves.So a "Thin Bid" but at 0-0, I pick it up.


3) The score is 3-3. You're in seat 1, and the dealer turned down the (Card_9-S)

You have (Card_J-C), (Card_A-D), (Card_K-D), (Card_Q-H), (Card_J-H)
I am evaluating Diamonds because I will have 3 trump
+0.25 Seat 1
+0.25 2nd round (reverse next)
+0.75 Left
+0.5 Ad
+0.5 Kd
+0.25 1 Void
+0.75 Strong Hand (3 trump, Bower)
+3.25 Easy decision to call Diamonds



4) Your team is up 7-0. Your partner, the dealer turned down the (Card_9-H)

First seat passes and it's on you.

You hold (Card_K-C), (Card_10-D), (Card_9-D), (Card_Q-H), (Card_10-H)
+0.5 Seat 2
+0.25 2nd Round but Next
+0.25 Td
+0.25 9d
+1.25 If you stop here you should pass
+0.75 Donating is appropriate
2.0 supports calling hearts because donating is so important. (QT in trump is too weak to support a bid).



5) The score is 5-5. You're in the 2 seat and the dealer upcard is the (Card_9-D)

You have (Card_J-D), (Card_10-D), (Card_10-C), (Card_9-S), (Card_9-H)
+0.5 Seat 2
+1.0 Right
+0.25 Td
+0.0 Upcard is weak
1.75 points. Even an aggressive player with a 2.0 limit should pass. But, a BPS is a guide, not an absolute. I will override a 0.25 point difference up to 20% of the time. (If I am not following the BPS 80% of the time, then it is time to fine tune the BPS).

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:33 pm

2.00 would make sense for Seat 2. Easier to add .50 to Points.
.50 Value of Up Card going to Dealer, Dealer/ Partner having last play on first trick
Add +.25 if Up is a Q, K, A. Add +.5 if a Left
Consider passing if Up is Right to allow a Lone by Dealer/Partner
Consider adding .25 if Up is a Left (You have 8 or 9 points and 1 or 2 wins the game)
Consider adding .25 if your Left or Ace is Protected.
The left can never be the upcard. So I don't understand what you mean by that.

Usually if you're in second seat, order the right into your partner's hand, and you have the left, you can count on the left taking a trick because it's rare for the dealer to have only one trump. He won't play the right against your left.

While I agree with you about passing if the upcard is the right, that shouldn't be a hard and fast rule. It depends on what's in your hand. If you have three trump, don't pass because your partner probably won't have the lone anyway.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:40 pm

(Card_K-D)
RedDuke wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:33 pm
2.00 would make sense for Seat 2. Easier to add .50 to Points.
.50 Value of Up Card going to Dealer, Dealer/ Partner having last play on first trick
Add +.25 if Up is a Q, K, A. Add +.5 if a Left
Consider passing if Up is Right to allow a Lone by Dealer/Partner
Consider adding .25 if Up is a Left (You have 8 or 9 points and 1 or 2 wins the game)
Consider adding .25 if your Left or Ace is Protected.
The left can never be the upcard. So I don't understand what you mean by that.

My mistake. I was applying the system and missed the illogical situation. Thanks.

Usually if you're in second seat, order the right into your partner's hand, and you have the left, you can count on the left taking a trick because it's rare for the dealer to have only one trump. He won't play the right against your left.

I agree. I think that is reflected in the point system.

While I agree with you about passing if the upcard is the right, that shouldn't be a hard and fast rule. It depends on what's in your hand. If you have three trump, don't pass because your partner probably won't have the lone anyway.
Yes absolutely, order up with 3 trump. That aligns with “consider passing”, that I used in the wording.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:19 pm

Your system is in serious trouble. For example the first hand - why would you order when you have a better hand in next and can euchre the dealer if he picks it up? Where did you get to give yourself +0.25 for being in 1st seat? You give yourself more for an ace than a trump? You don't give yourself credit for a void, you take away points for NOT having a void.

EX: Up: (Card_K-H) You (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-D)
If you are in Seat 1
+0.25 For Seat 1
+1.00 for Right
+0.5 for Qh
+0.75 for As
+0.50 for Ad
+0.25 for 1 void
3.25 Points, exceeds 2.5 points so bid

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:51 pm

Gotcha. You are looking at the first hand that I used to simply demonstrate the basics of my system, how to add up the points. I wasn't using the hand to demonstrate the overall efficacy of my BPS. I apologize.

So lets look at your suggestion, that the hand in the 2nd round is stronger than bidding in the first hand. I agree:
+0.25 For Seat 1
+0.50 for 2nd Round Next from Seat 1
+0.75 for Left
+0.50 for Qh
+0.75 for As
+0.50 for Ad
+0.25 for 1 Void
3.50 Points + the un-evaluated possibility of euchre

+0.25 reflects, with a number, the benefit of having 1st lead
An Ace has roughly the same probability of taking a trick as a Q, K or A of trump, .50 or 50%.
A Singleton Green Ace has roughly the same probability of taking a trick as the Left, .75 or 75%.
A void is a benefit from the Bidder's standpoint. So it is reflected as an addition to the numerical strength of the Bidder's hand.

I appreciate your question. Iron sharpens iron.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:33 pm

I would disagree with both statements below. Seriously?

An Ace has roughly the same probability of taking a trick as a Q, K or A of trump, .50 or 50%.
A Singleton Green Ace has roughly the same probability of taking a trick as the Left, .75 or 75%.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:29 am

OK. Let's review the system and see what we can agree on. Then lets identify specific disagreements.

BPS gives the Right a rating of 1.0 since it is a guaranteed 1.0 trump.
The Left is obviously weaker than the Right, so it earns a rating of 0.75 points.
The AKQ of Trump is another level weaker, so it earns a rating of 0.50 points.
The T9 of trump is the weakest trump, so it is assigned a rating of 0.25 point.

Can we agree, those 4 guidelines are a reasonable starting point?

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:21 pm

I think this is the acid test of my BPS. Here I apply it to Wes' Advanced Euchre Quiz:
#1
+0.50 Dealer Position
+0.5 Kc
+1.00 Right
+0.75 Left
+0.5 Ac
+0.5 Qc

Alone

#2
+0.50 Seat 4 Dealer Position
+0.5 Kc
+0.25 Tc
+0.75 Ad (Reverse Ace)
+0.25 1 Void Suit
2.25 Bid, min 2.00 Aggressive, 2.25 Moderate Seat 4

#3
+0.25 Seat 1
+0.25 2nd round (reverse next)
+0.75 Left
+0.5 Ad
+0.5 Kd
+0.25 1 Void
+0.75 Strong Hand (3 trump, Bower)
+3.25 Easy decision to call Diamonds, min 2.50 Seat 1

#4
+0.5 Seat 2
+0.25 2nd Round but Next
+0.25 Td
+0.25 9d
+1.25 If you stop here you should pass
+0.75 Donating is appropriate
2.00 Call diamonds because donating is so important. Diamonds earns a higher score than Singleton Kc. 2.0 vs 1.0

#5
+0.5 Seat 2
+1.0 Right
+0.25 Td
+0.0 Upcard is weak
1.75 points. Pass. min 2.00 Aggressive 2.25 Moderate Seat 2

#6
+0.50 Dealer
+0.25 9h
+1.0 Right
+0.5 Ac
+0.5 Ad
+.25 1 Void
3.00 bid 

#7
+0.50 Seat 2
+1.00 Right
+0.50 h 
+0.5 Ad
+0.25 Difference between up card 0.5 and 0.25 built into Dealer's up card
2.75 Bid

#8
+1.0 2nd round next
+0.75 Left
-.5 only 1 trump
+0.75 Donating
2.00 bid, min. Seat 2 bid

#9
+0.25 Seat 1
+0.25 2nd round reverse next
+0.5 Ac
+0.5 Qc
+.5 As
+.5 Ah
+0.5 if Opponents have 9 points
3.0 bid Clubs (Bidding Diamonds is interesting but I prefer 2 trump vs 1)

#10
0.25 Seat 1
0.5 Qs
0.25 Ts
0.25 9s
0.25 1 void
0.5 strong 3 trump but QT9
2.00 pass (min 2.50 from Seat 1)

#11
0.0 Seat 3
0.75 Left
0.5 Kh
0.5 Qh
0.75 3 Voids (2 suited)
0.75 Strong 3 trump & Bower
3.25 Bid min 2.5 Aggressive or Moderate but 2.75 if Partner doesn't lead trump to a Seat 3 bid

#12
0.5 Seat 2
0.5 Qh
0.25 Th
0.5 Ac
0.25 1 Void
2.00 enough to bid
0.75 Donating makes sense
2.75 Bid

#13
0.25 Seat 4
0.25 9c
0.25 Void
-0.5 only 1 trump
0.75 Donating makes sense
1.00 Pass. Donating at 9-0 isn't mandatory.

#14
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Rnd 2 Reverse
1.00 Right
0.25 9d
0.25 1 Void
2.00 Pass

#15
0.50 Seat 2
0.50 Rnd 2 Reverse
1.00 Right
0.50 Ac
0.25 1 Void
2.75 Bid

#16
0.00 Seat 3
0.75 Left
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.75 Ad Singleton Green Ace
0.75 2 Trump & Bower Power
3.25 Bid, consider pass because 3 suits blocked,but there is
no 2nd round bid, 3.25 is a strong bid

#17
0.50 Seat 4
0.25 Ts
0.50 As
0.50 Ad
0.75 Ah Singleton Green Ace
0.25 1 Void
0.75 Opponents have 9 points
3.50 Bid

#18
0.50 Seat 4
1.00 Right
0.75 Left
0.50 Ah
0.25 1 Void
3.00 Bid
5.25 2nd round club bid and remaining 3 suits blocked
Pass setting up Euchre or Club Loner

#19 Td Give Partner a chance or draw a trump from Dealer

#20
0.50 Seat 2
0.50 Ad
0.50 Kd
0.25 1 Void
0.75 Opponents have 9 points
2.50 Bid

#21
0.25 Seat 1
0.50 Rnd 2 Next
0.75 Left
0.25 Ts
0.25 1 Void
2.00 Pass

#22
0.25 Seat 1
0.50 Rnd 2 Next
0.50 Ks
0.25 Ts
0.50 Ad
0.25 1 Void
2.25 Bid 2.25 min Aggressive 2nd Round

#23
0.50 Seat 2
1.00 Right
0.50 Ah
0.50 Ac
0.75 2 voids
3.25 Bid, Subtotal
0.50 Kc as 2nd A
0.50 down 5-0, need points
0.50 3 near certain tricks
4.75 Alone

#24
0.00 Pass

#25
0.50 Seat 2
0.75 Left
0.50 As
0.50 Ad
0.75 Ah
0.25 1 Void
3.25 Subtotal Bid
0.50 down 0-3
0.50 Kd as A
0.50 3 near certain tricks
4.75 Alone

#26
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ac
1.00 Right
0.75 2 Voids
2.75 Subtotal bid
0.75 Opponents have 9 points
0.50 down 3 points + bonus ends game
4.00 Alone

#27
0.50 Seat 2
0.75 Left
0.25 Th
0.50 Ac
0.25 1 Void
2.25 Bid

#28
0.50 Seat 2
0.75 Left
0.25 Th
0.50 Ac
0.25 1 Void
2.25 Pass 2.25 acceptable but minimal bid. All suits blocked.
2nd Round bid 3.75

#29
0.00 Seat 3
1.00 Right
0.50 Ks
0.25 9S
0.25 1 Void
0.75 3 Trump & Bower Power
2.75 Bid

#30
Since Ad was lead, I want my lead, 9d, to give Partner the best opportunity to trump.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:14 pm

Wow! 312 views! Only 9 posts! Actually only 3, 6 were my posts. Please post your thoughts. I welcome constructive criticism. Wes provided you an excellent and invaluable Euchre Quiz. Post your answers there as well.

irishwolf
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:45 pm

Do you have proof for this statement?

I believe cards run in waves...

GAMGLER'S FALLACY!

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:29 am

My experience and Don Lund's (creator of Ohio Euchre) experience support this statement.

I'll assume, for posting purposes, that "waves" doesn't align with probability theory. So you reject, "cards run in waves," out of hand.

Is it possible that all of the iterations of the Fibonacci Sequence have been wrong? Fibonacci introduced the concept to the western world around 1200 AD. The concept has been referenced as far back as 200 BC! I suggest looking up the Fiboncci Sequence. It is a fascinating study. In a nutshell, it has applied numbers to the physical world and found sequences in everything in life. So I suggest that it continues to the distribution of cards.

Thank you for your reply.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:08 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:29 am
My experience and Don Lund's (creator of Ohio Euchre) experience support this statement.

I'll assume, for posting purposes, that "waves" doesn't align with probability theory. So you reject, "cards run in waves," out of hand.
You're job is to make the correct decision now. Never let past hands affect your play. Just make the best play possible in the moment.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:38 pm

You're job is to make the correct decision now. Never let past hands affect your play. Just make the best play possible in the moment.
Is't it possible that because the shuffle is never a perfect shuffle and we deal the cards in pairs and treys, that the cards would clump together?
And since the cards have a tendency to clump together that the hands are not truly a random distribution of cards?
Isn't it possible that manifests as waves of strong or weak hands to a particular player?
Consequently, doesn't the best decision have to include the tendency of hands to run in waves?

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:37 pm

I renamed this topic to “Bidding Point System (BPS) Basic to reflect the simplification and refining of the 1st post for easier understanding. I invite you to read it again, for the first time!

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:24 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:38 pm
You're job is to make the correct decision now. Never let past hands affect your play. Just make the best play possible in the moment.
Is't it possible that because the shuffle is never a perfect shuffle and we deal the cards in pairs and treys, that the cards would clump together?
And since the cards have a tendency to clump together that the hands are not truly a random distribution of cards?
Isn't it possible that manifests as waves of strong or weak hands to a particular player?
Consequently, doesn't the best decision have to include the tendency of hands to run in waves?
What Wes was talking about is the Gambler's Fallacy. That is that past results have any impact on future results in a random sequence. An obvious example would be if you flip a coin ten times and it comes up heads all ten times. You might think that tails is more likely to come up on the next flip because of all the heads in a row. This is not true however as the next flip has a 50% chance to be heads or 50% chance to be tails.

What you're talking about is true in practice because cards in euchre are not perfectly shuffled or distributed. Therefore, yes, the cards do actually go in waves. This is theoretically not true in apps though since all the cards are randomly dealt to the players. Anyone that's played with or designed a random generator though will tell you that no random generator is truly random.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:37 pm

Excellent points RedDuke. Gamblers' Fallacy is very different than cards being distributed in waves.

Let me add some information to your point that random generators are not truly random. The Fibonacci sequence has been known by western society since 1202. The sequence is used to predict patterns in our world like the growth of a rabbit population, the pattern on the outside of a pineapple, the branching of trees, the meandering of rivers and even the stock market. The Elliott Wave Theory and Technical Trading use the Fibonacci Sequence as its base. A number of random generators use the Fibonacci sequence in some form. So even our apps have waves built into the card distribution

patiencepays
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Post by patiencepays » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:48 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 pm

2.75 is the minimum points for a Seat 3.
[Seat 3 is the toughest seat for a successful bid. I have added 0.25 to the base of 2.5 because most partners will not lead the mandatory trump].

According to this bidding point system you say:

Right bower = 1
Left bower = .75
Ace trump = .50

If I am in 3rd seat holding Jh Jd Ah xx with a 10h up, I'm ordering the dealer. While your bidding system values such a holding as a 2.25 points, I see it as a 3.00. It's clear there are 3 sure tricks making it biddable from 3rd.

PS I have never been a fan of using the word "bid" to make trump. No bidding happens, one player decides.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:22 pm

patiencepays wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:48 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 pm

2.75 is the minimum points for a Seat 3.
[Seat 3 is the toughest seat for a successful bid. I have added 0.25 to the base of 2.5 because most partners will not lead the mandatory trump].

According to this bidding point system you say:

Right bower = 1
Left bower = .75
Ace trump = .50

If I am in 3rd seat holding Jh Jd Ah xx with a 10h up, I'm ordering the dealer. While your bidding system values such a holding as a 2.25 points, I see it as a 3.00. It's clear there are 3 sure tricks making it biddable from 3rd.

PS I have never been a fan of using the word "bid" to make trump. No bidding happens, one player decides.
Good question Patience. You applied the card points correctly. You applied Seat Position points correctly. I experienced the same ah-hah moment, hey I have 3 tricks. So if you look a little further, you will see:

[Strong combinations are very powerful and deserve additional points].
0.50 for any 3 trump
0.75 for 3 trump and a Bower or 2

Your example includes 3 trump and 2 Bowers, so by design, you would add 0.75 points to the 2.25 for a total of 3.00 points (agreeing with your analysis). So you would bid.

Thank you for your post. It allows me to explain several points.
1. You don't need a BPS for obvious hands (3 Boss Trump). As Don stated in his OE lessons, "obvious hands, are obvious." The major benefit of the BPS is analyzing marginal hands, aka on the edge hands. This parallels advanced statistics in sports. You don't need advanced statistics to analyze superstars (obvious hands). You need them to evaluate (choose between) marginal, fringe players (on the edge calls).
2. The goal of the BPS is to call appropriate marginal hands. Bidding 10% more often,with 80% or greater success helps me to win more games. Bidding 10% more often stops 10% of the Lones of my opponents.
3. Applying the BPS will allow you to bid Lones 10% more often, with a 90% success rate of getting 1 point, and a 30% (or greater) rate of getting 4 points. Add in the psychological advantage of calling a Lone and you have a winning combination.
4. I have more bullet points for using the BPS, but as a trainer (in other endeavors), I've learned to stop at 3 points.
5. The big take aways, of the BPS, is that it trains the player to analyze their hands as much or as little as their experience, motivations and time limitations allow. My BPS - Basic reflects the OE (Ohio Euchre) lessons of Don Lund (the creator of OE). It is simply in a different format. That allows players to enjoy the game of Euchre to a greater level whether they are new to the game or dominant players against "average" competition. BPS - Advanced will reflect more advanced analysis based on deeper analysis, mostly based on experienced tournament quality posts of Don, Wes, IrishWolf, Reduke and others.
6. My motivation,has been to chronicle, my growth from a new player to playing very well against average competition. I could keep this information to myself or share it on OE. I prefer to share this information, just like Don Lund has, so that everyone can enjoy this game a little bit more.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:26 pm

I can't prove this using probability but my experience has been that the left or ace of trump is far less than 75% likely to take a trick if it is the only trump in your hand. The reason for this is that whoever calls will almost always lead the right pretty quickly in the hand and that'll take out the left. So you might want to account for this in your bidding system.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:30 am

Excellent point. Please keep in mind, that the BPS is a checklist and a training manual. The BPS starts by analyzing the cards in the bidder's hand, then the seat position and next the impact of the combination of cards. To quote the BPS:
[Likewise, deduct value from your hand in weak situations]:

[Bidding with only 1 trump is difficult]:
-0.50 if you are bidding with only 1 trump
So you wind up with a net of 0.25 for a Singleton Left. (0.75 for the Left minus 0.50 for a Singleton Left (no protection). The progression through the concepts of the BPS tracks the approximate order of how I learned the concepts and then applied those concepts to the BPS. Thank you for your question.

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:35 pm

I was just thinking earlier today while finishing up a game that this system needs to take the score into account too.

Case in point,

I was sitting in third seat holding this:

(Card_J-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-D)

Upcard was the (Card_10-S) . Score was 9-9.

Under the BPS, this would have a value of:

.75 Left
.50 AKQ Trump
.25 T9 Trump
.50 Three Trump
________________
2.00

From third seat, that doesn't appear to be strong enough to bid. But you absolutely want to bid this hand. At a score of 9-9, the game is going to be won or lost with this hand. You don't have a stronger suit to try if the dealer turned it down. That alone makes this a must bid no matter what the BPS says.

BTW, what actually happened is that my partner had the Right+Ace and a side Ace. Why she passed on this hand is beyond me. We ended up taking all five tricks between us. Even if she would have had nothing though, this is still a must bid.

I do notice that you include a part about adjusting your bid if the opponents have 9 points but why not if you have 9 points. On a score of 9-9, you absolutely must bid if it's your strongest suit, even if you just have three low trump and are ordering the Ace into the dealer's hand.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:04 pm

Great points RedDuke. I agree that you need to call in this situation. Addressing actual hands like this is how the BPS is improved.

But first let's add 0.25 to the value of the hand for a Void in Clubs. So the hand has a value of 2.25. That gets us within 0.50 of 2.75 points needed for calling. Getting within 0.50 points is the point that I look for other factors to consider. I look to the BPS first and it includes an adjustment when the Opponents have 9 points. The adjustment does not apply since it is for Round 2 of bidding and we are in Round 1. (This adjustment may require more analysis as well).

Your recommendation to address the situation, when your team has 9 points makes sense. We play the game to win. We are 1 point from winning. That has a value. The minimum value in the BPS is 0.25. So lets add 0.25 to the hand if we only need 1 point to win. I also suggest adding an additional 0.25 when we have 9 and the opponent has 9, even in Round 1. There is value in calling because we stop the opponent's opportunity to win. That gives us 2.75 points, enough to make a comfortable call from the 3rd seat.

Perhaps you think, what good is a system, if he changes it so quickly?" This is not a change in the system. This is simply identifying an easy to see situation, Us 9, Opponents 9 and assigning value to the observations. It is how the BPS expanded to cover more and more detailed situations.

Let me also point out that the score is the last analysis in the BPS - Basic. My intention is to keep "End of Game" scores in Basic and Donating (Protecting Leads) in Advanced. So our team having 9 belongs in BPS - Basic.

Also in BPS - Advanced, comparing your Round 2 points to Round 1 points will be evaluated. This hand is much stronger in Round 1 than Round 2. Therefore I expect to add points for this situation.

Thank you RedDuke for challenging me to make the BPS better.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:58 pm

Let's analyze this hand, from a previous post, using the BPS:
You hold:
(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_9-S)

Up Card: (Card_Q-H); Score: Neutral; Players: Average & Equal
You: Eldest (Seat 1)
0.25 Seat 1
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
-.25 Deduct the net value of the Up Card
3.75 At 3.75 BPS consider going Alone. There are no other factors so go Alone.

You: Seat 2
0.50 Seat 2
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
4.25 At 4.00 or higher go Alone

You: Seat 3
0.00 Seat 3
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
-.25 Deduct the net value of the Up Card
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
3.50 At 2.75 or higher call, Below 3.75 do not go Alone

You: Seat 4 (Dealer)
0.50 Seat 4
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.50 Qh
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
5.00 At 3.75 or higher, go Alone

Those decisions look reasonable to me.
The decisions from Seat 1 & 3 are on the edge.
What do you think?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:21 pm

You: Seat 2
0.50 Seat 2
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
4.25 At 4.00 or higher go Alone
Should be higher. With that hand, all three of your trump are guaranteed tricks. You're holding both bowers and the ace. You can't be overtrumped so all three should be 1.0 IMO.

The same applies regardless of seat position so should be true in all four examples.

With the three top trump, two suited, I'm going alone no matter what seat position I'm in. Think about it, literally, the best thing your partner can do here is have the Ace to overtake your King. If you go alone in that instance, your partner's hand will be buried, your king will be boss, and you'll make the sweep. If your opponents have that ace, it's a one point hand no matter what you do. There is literally zero benefit to going with a partner with that hand.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:33 am

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:21 pm
You: Seat 2
0.50 Seat 2
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
4.25 At 4.00 or higher go Alone
Should be higher. With that hand, all three of your trump are guaranteed tricks. You're holding both bowers and the ace. You can't be overtrumped so all three should be 1.0 IMO.

The same applies regardless of seat position so should be true in all four examples.

With the three top trump, two suited, I'm going alone no matter what seat position I'm in. Think about it, literally, the best thing your partner can do here is have the Ace to overtake your King. If you go alone in that instance, your partner's hand will be buried, your king will be boss, and you'll make the sweep. If your opponents have that ace, it's a one point hand no matter what you do. There is literally zero benefit to going with a partner with that hand.
Let me confirm that you would go alone from Seat 3 when you say:
With the three top trump, two suited, I'm going alone no matter what seat position I'm in.
I agree with your statement:
Should be higher. With that hand, all three of your trump are guaranteed tricks. You're holding both bowers and the ace. You can't be overtrumped so all three should be 1.0 IMO.
The BPS attempts to address strong trump by adding 0.75 for 3 trump with one or more Bowers. Perhaps the answer would be add 0.25 for 2 or more "Boss Trump" or make it +1.00 for Super Strong Trump?

RedDuke
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Post by RedDuke » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:42 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:33 am
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:21 pm
You: Seat 2
0.50 Seat 2
1.00 Jh
0.75 Jd
0.50 Ah
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.75 3 Trump, at least 1 Bower
4.25 At 4.00 or higher go Alone
Should be higher. With that hand, all three of your trump are guaranteed tricks. You're holding both bowers and the ace. You can't be overtrumped so all three should be 1.0 IMO.

The same applies regardless of seat position so should be true in all four examples.

With the three top trump, two suited, I'm going alone no matter what seat position I'm in. Think about it, literally, the best thing your partner can do here is have the Ace to overtake your King. If you go alone in that instance, your partner's hand will be buried, your king will be boss, and you'll make the sweep. If your opponents have that ace, it's a one point hand no matter what you do. There is literally zero benefit to going with a partner with that hand.
Let me confirm that you would go alone from Seat 3 when you say:
With the three top trump, two suited, I'm going alone no matter what seat position I'm in.
I agree with your statement:
Should be higher. With that hand, all three of your trump are guaranteed tricks. You're holding both bowers and the ace. You can't be overtrumped so all three should be 1.0 IMO.
The BPS attempts to address strong trump by adding 0.75 for 3 trump with one or more Bowers. Perhaps the answer would be add 0.25 for 2 or more "Boss Trump" or make it +1.00 for Super Strong Trump?
Yes, with three top trump + King-9 and two suited, I'm going alone when in third seat.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:44 pm

I played these 2 hands today

Score 7-8; Players average and equal

(Card_Q-H) turned down. In Seat 1 I held:
(Card_J-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S)
Call or pass?
0.25 Seat 1
0.50 2nd Round Next
1.00 Right
0.50 A
2.25 Pass if less than 2.5, but
0.25 2nd Round, Opponents have 8 points
2.50 Call Diamonds
The hand played out:
(Card_J-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_10-D) Seat 1 wins 1-0
(Card_9-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-H) Seat 2 wins 1-1
(Card_A-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-D) Seat 1 wins 2-1
(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) Seat 3 wins 2-2
(Card_10-H) (Card_J-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-D) Seat 1 wins 3-2
Win 3-2 Score now 8-8; Now I am in Seat 4
Up Card (Card_A-S)
My hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C)
Call or pass?
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 As
0.50 Ad
0.50 Ac
-.25 Only 1 trump
1.75 2.00 needed to call but
0.25 2nd Round, Opponents have 8 points
2.00 Call Spades
The hand played out:
(Card_9-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-D) Seat 3 wins 0-1
(Card_J-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_9-S) Seat 3 wins 0-2
(Card_A-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-H) (Card_J-C) Seat 2 wins 1-2
(Card_K-C) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) Seat 4 wins 2-2
(Card_A-D) (Card_Q-H) Toss Toss Seat 4 wins 3-2
Score now 9-8. We win the last game and hand.
Would you have called both hands?
Would you have played the hands differently?

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:47 pm

Score 7-8; Players average and equal

(Card_Q-H) turned down. In Seat 1 I held:
(Card_J-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-H) (Card_9-S)
Call or pass?
0.25 Seat 1
0.50 2nd Round Next
1.00 Right
0.50 A
2.25 Pass if less than 2.5, but
0.25 2nd Round, Opponents have 8 points
2.50 Call Diamonds
I would call Diamonds there as well.
Win 3-2 Score now 8-8; Now I am in Seat 4
Up Card (Card_A-S)
My hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C)
Call or pass?
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 As
0.50 Ad
0.50 Ac
-.25 Only 1 trump
1.75 2.00 needed to call but
0.25 2nd Round, Opponents have 8 points
2.00 Call Spades
That one is much iffier. On the one hand, you have two off aces. On the other hand, you have serious strength there in next and have a very good chance to euchre the opponents on a first seat next call and win the game right there. Your partner passed here too which probably means that they'd be no help and honestly with a three-suited hand with only one trump (and neither bower), you need your partner's help.

I'd have passed this one and hope for a clubs (next) call from first seat and then try and euchre them or wait for a diamonds call from your partner.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:10 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:47 pm
Win 3-2 Score now 8-8; Now I am in Seat 4
Up Card (Card_A-S)
My hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C)
Call or pass?
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 As
0.50 Ad
0.50 Ac
-.25 Only 1 trump
1.75 2.00 needed to call but
0.25 2nd Round, Opponents have 8 points
2.00 Call Spades

That one is much iffier. On the one hand, you have two off aces. On the other hand, you have serious strength there in next and have a very good chance to euchre the opponents on a first seat next call and win the game right there. Your partner passed here too which probably means that they'd be no help and honestly with a three-suited hand with only one trump (and neither bower), you need your partner's help.

I'd have passed this one and hope for a clubs (next) call from first seat and then try and euchre them or wait for a diamonds call from your partner.
I agree, with (experienced player) RedDuke. If you have power in Next (3 trump in Next, in this hand), consider passing. Now, to show you why, let us expand from Basic to Advanced. Start by applying BPS - Basic to the value of the Round 2 Call:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Seat 4 Reverse Next
0.50 Qd
0.50 Ad
0.75 2 Voids (2 Suited)
2.75 Points! vs 2.00 Round 1
BPS, if you see that you have an excellent chance to Euchre a Next Call by your opponents in Seat 1 (as well as Seat 3), verifies that your Round 2 bid is better than your Round 1 call, by 0.75 points. That is why I agree, that you should pass, with this hand.

But, if you can't see that you have a Next Call effectively blocked, (and average players won't see that Next is blocked), they can Call and still improve their results! The 2.00 points is on the edge. (DO NOT STOP THINKING). If you have additional skills, analyze further, if not, play what you know. The concept is to improve your game and your enjoyment of playing Euchre. (I am assuming that winning more often improves your enjoyment).

BPS - Advanced will explain these concepts further. These concepts were gleaned from OE Lessons and the posts from OE, as well as my evolution from a new player to a strong Average player. I appreciate the knowledge that I have gained from OE's lessons (Thanks Don Lund) and everyone whom posts to the forum, especially RedDuke, Wes, Don and anyone else that I have failed to thank.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:00 am

Win 3-2 Score now 8-8; Now I am in Seat 4
Up Card (Card_A-S)
My hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C)
I think that it is very interesting to analyze this hand further. Let's look at calling Clubs in Round 2. It is extremely interesting to me because I am changing the BPS (Bidding Point System) because of this post!

Many players avoid going against Hoyle. (only calling Reverse Next from Seat 2 or 4 and calling Next from Seat 1 or 3). For Don Lund's training click on the tab "Tips" and review Next and Reverse Next.

The Current BPS would evaluate a call in Clubs:
0.50 Seat 4
0.25 Round 2
0.50 Ac
0.50 Qc
0.50 Tc
0.50 Ad
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.50 3 Trump, no Bowers
3.75 A very strong hand, better than 2.75 points in Diamonds

But you never stop thinking. And this hand doesn't pass the smell test! The 1st bad sniff is going against Hoyle. The 2nd is picturing the play of cards.The odds favor my opponents having both Bowers! There is a strong possibility that I may only be able to take 1 trick causing my team to be euchred.

So I went back to the drawing board. The 1st step was going to Tips and reading and digesting Next and Reverse Next calls. Then looked at the current BPS:
[The 2nd most used adjustment is for the 2nd round of bidding].

Add 0.50 if you are bidding Next from Seat 1 (+0.25 for Round 2 & +0.25 Next). Add 0.50 if your are bidding Next from Seat 3 (+0.25 for Round 2 & +0.25 Next).
Add 0.25 if your are bidding Reverse Next from Seat 1 (+.25 for Round 2)
Add 0.25 if your are bidding Reverse Next from Seat 3 (+.25 for Round 2)

0.50 if you are bidding Reverse Next from Seat 2 (+.25 for Round 2 and .25 for Reverse Next)
0.50 if you are bidding Reverse Next from Seat 4 (+.25 for Round 2 and .25 for Reverse Next)
0.25 if you are bidding Next from Seat 2 (+.25 for Round 2)
0.25 if you are bidding Next from Seat 4 (+.25 for Round 2)
I was guilty of three errors! 1. I made a simple concept complex. You are in Round 2 because no one had a strong enough hand to call in thee Up Card suit. So simply add +0.25 to the hand in every seat. 2. Next, as described in OE, is called from Seat 1 not Seat 3. So it is much more powerful than the 0.25 in BPS. I will increase it to +0.75. I still feel Next is relevant from Seat 3 but now only 0.25. 3. Reverse Next, as described in OE, is called from Seat 2, not Seat 4 (Dealer). It is much more powerful than the 0.25 i BPS. will increase it to +0.75.I till feel that Reverse Next is relevant from Seat 4 but now only 0.25.

I will add more later. I am off to a Pirates Spring Training game! Please share any thoughts you have so far.

I will replace the current Round 2 BPS with:

[The 2nd most used adjustment is for the 2nd round of bidding].
0.25 Round 2, any Seat
0.75 Round 2, Seat 1, Next Call
0.75 Round 2, Seat 2,Reverse Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 3, Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 4, Reverse Next Call

The major changes are 0.75 for a Seat 1 Next Call as well as 0.75 for a Seat 2 Reverse Next Call. Adding 0.75 to go with Hoyle makes sense on a "smell test." It smells right that your hand is stronger going with Hoyle. And it smells right that your hand is improved by 75% of a sure trick, if you are sitting in Seat 1 or 2. I now want to test the improved quantitative analysis with actual results. I think that my odds are good. What do you think?

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:54 pm

Many players avoid going against Hoyle. (only calling Reverse Next from Seat 2 or 4 and calling Next from Seat 1 or 3). For Don Lund's training click on the tab "Tips" and review Next and Reverse Next.

The Current BPS would evaluate a call in Clubs:
0.50 Seat 4
0.25 Round 2
0.50 Ac
0.50 Qc
0.50 Tc
0.50 Ad
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.50 3 Trump, no Bowers
3.75 A very strong hand, better than 2.75 points in Diamonds

But you never stop thinking. And this hand doesn't pass the smell test! The 1st bad sniff is going against Hoyle. The 2nd is picturing the play of cards.The odds favor my opponents having both Bowers! There is a strong possibility that I may only be able to take 1 trick causing my team to be euchred.
Where you'll really get into trouble here is if your opponents have both bowers and are able to avoid having them both fall on the same trick. Think about it, in a scenario where the guy in first seat leads the right and third seat is forced to play the left (because that's all he has), you can just throw away the 10 and basically have all the remaining power. If one opponent has both bowers, for example, is where you'll get into trouble. It's pretty unlikely though that someone is holding both bowers and didn't call in either the first round or the second.

You're correct, the odds are that your partner doesn't have the bowers, although he might have one and no other trump besides. Or maybe he was too afraid to go against Hoyle himself! I can't tell you how many times I've called against Hoyle and my partner wound up with two trump, one of which was the right!

Honestly, the hand you're showing is a decent loner attempt. If both bowers are buried or in your partner's hand, you have a very good shot at making the sweep given that you have three trump and are two suited (plus you have an ace in the off suit).

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:48 am

:) I especially like your last point, "the hand you're showing is a decent loner attempt." You are going "against Hoyle" and considering an Alone! Excellent. BTW, the 3.75 point evaluation of the Round 2 hand says, "possible Loner hand!"

Let's analyze the possible Alone further. The context was, the score is 8-8. That is the deciding factor not to go Alone. Our team only needs 2 points so going for 4 loses most of its luster (as always there are exceptions). Our opponent has 8 points, so if we get euchred, we lose the game. So partnering makes more sense, because of the 8-8 score.

RedDuke's points include:
A possible Alone.
I go against Hoyle. (It is not gospel, it is a recommendation, a guideline).
Getting euchred is not likely enough for you to avoid calling.
Your partner may be afraid to call, so you must call for your partner.

I just read an article detailing how the USA game of baseball emulates the American spirit! In Europe if you attempt to start your own business and fail, you are a loser. In the USA, your are held in high esteem for trying to start the business. You actually earn more esteem if despite failure, you try again, an again, and... What do you call a baseball player who fails at the plate 70% of the time? Owner of a $300,000,000 contract! That is one more reason that I enjoy Euchre so much, you are rewarded for taking risks! And the rewards are much greater than the (mostly imaginary) costs!!

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:06 pm

Let's analyze the possible Alone further. The context was, the score is 8-8. That is the deciding factor not to go Alone. Our team only needs 2 points so going for 4 loses most of its luster (as always there are exceptions). Our opponent has 8 points, so if we get euchred, we lose the game. So partnering makes more sense, because of the 8-8 score.
8-8 shouldn't be an argument to taking your partner along. There's lots of times when your partner can result in you only taking one point instead of two. In fact, I once played a hand where my partner caused me to get euchred! So just because you only need two points is no reason to not go alone.

In this hand, the best thing your partner could do for you is have the right to stop a left played by the guy in first seat on the first lead. In fact, that's literally the only thing that he could do to change the outcome of this hand. If the opponents have both bowers (and one of them having a second trump - the bad scenario for you), there's literally nothing your partner could do to change the outcome of the hand.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:06 pm

I respectfully disagree. The most important reason to go partnered instead of alone, when your opponent has 8 points, is to avoid euchre and losing the game. That applies to this hand. Your other points are spot on.

This thread is BPS - Basic. Please, lets start a new thread to drill any further into advanced analyses of this hand.

The take aways for beginners, starting here:
Score now 8-8; Now I am in Seat 4
Up Card (Card_A-S)
My hand (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C)
0.75 is the updated add for Round 2 Seat 1 Next
0.75 is the updated add for Round 2 Seat 2 Reverse Next
For OE wisdom go to the tab, "Tips" and read Next and Reverse Next
The 1st Post in this thread, BPS - Basic, now reflects those evaluations

You learned that breaking the Next or Reverse Next guidelines is called "Going Against Hoyle." That guideline has stood the test of hundreds of years!
BUT guidelines assume a balanced distribution of cards. If your cards and other observations support an unbalanced distribution, do not be afraid of "Going Against Hoyle!"

Thank you RedDuke for your insightful posts.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:03 pm

(Card_A-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 1
(Card_9-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S)
Call or Pass?

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:44 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:03 pm
(Card_A-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 1
(Card_9-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-S)
Call or Pass?
Tough call. You have a decent shot at a euchre if the dealer picks up... maybe. Odds are, he'd have at least two trump and maybe three. You don't have enough strength to stop the Ace and a second trump.

At the same time, spades is your strongest suit and passing could be risky. You have a decent hand in next though. You also have a loner stopped in both black suits and you get first call second round. I'm going to pass here and try to euchre the dealer if he picks up.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:28 am

Yes it is a tough call. Let's evaluate.
Round 1
0.25 Seat 1
1.0 R
0.5 Qs
0.75 Ah
0.50 Ac
3.00 is greater than 2.5 so Call, but

Round 2
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Round 2
0.75 Next
0.75 Left
0.50 Ac
0.75 Ah
3.25, Very close but definitely stronger to Pass

I actually called and we took 4 tricks. But I now have full confidence to pass.

Fran
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 10:56 am

Post by Fran » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:25 am

I would pass. If the dealer were to name spades, I would lead the nine of diamonds. I’m thinking my partner may have the ace of diamonds. The ace of spades would likely give the dealer three. If void, he would need to use a trump. This leaves me with two trump, two aces. Possible euchre?

If ace is turned down, call next then the lead ace of clubs.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:12 pm

Fran wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:25 am
I would pass. If the dealer were to name spades, I would lead the nine of diamonds. I’m thinking my partner may have the ace of diamonds. The ace of spades would likely give the dealer three. If void, he would need to use a trump. This leaves me with two trump, two aces. Possible euchre?

If ace is turned down, call next then the lead ace of clubs.
Hi Fran, you detailed very clearly how you would play the hands. I am curious about the details of why you would pass?

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm

I played another tough call.
(Card_J-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 3
(Card_9-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-S)
Where is your Call/ Pass line from Seat 3?
I called and the hands went
(Card_A-C) (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-C)
(Card_A-H) (Card_J-S) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)
(Card_A-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-D)
(Card_K-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_K-S)
(Card_J-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-H)
So we won 3-2 but you need to test at least 100 hands and as many as 400 hands to be confident that your Call/ Pass was the best decision. What would you do under the circumstances, and why?

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:31 pm

(Card_J-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 3
(Card_9-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-S)
This is a very tough hand! Would you pass?
The BPS evaluation is:
0.0 Seat 3
0.75 Left
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.75 Singleton Green Ace, Ah
0.25 1 Void in Clubs
0.75 3 Trump, 1 or 2 Bowers
-.75 J Up Card
2.75 meets the 2.75 points for a Seat 3 Call

I called. Would you? If not please define your "Edge" Call.

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:01 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:31 pm
(Card_J-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 3
(Card_9-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-S)
This is a very tough hand! Would you pass?
The BPS evaluation is:
0.0 Seat 3
0.75 Left
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.75 Singleton Green Ace, Ah
0.25 1 Void in Clubs
0.75 3 Trump, 1 or 2 Bowers
-.75 J Up Card
2.75 meets the 2.75 points for a Seat 3 Call

I called. Would you? If not please define your "Edge" Call.
That's definitely an iffy one from seat 3. If dealer has the (Card_A-S) then you could have some real problems. Nonetheless, I'd probably call that myself at a neutral score. I'd pass if we're in the lead because you've got the loner blocked. But otherwise, with nowhere to go in the next round except for maybe a hail mary next call, you've gotta risk giving the dealer the right.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:07 am

RedDuke wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:01 am
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:31 pm
(Card_J-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 3
(Card_9-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-S)
This is a very tough hand! Would you pass?
The BPS evaluation is:
0.0 Seat 3
0.75 Left
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.75 Singleton Green Ace, Ah
0.25 1 Void in Clubs
0.75 3 Trump, 1 or 2 Bowers
-.75 J Up Card
2.75 meets the 2.75 points for a Seat 3 Call

I called. Would you? If not please define your "Edge" Call.
That's definitely an iffy one from seat 3. If dealer has the (Card_A-S) then you could have some real problems. Nonetheless, I'd probably call that myself at a neutral score.


No way I'm calling in that spot. This hand is not strong enough to call from 3rd, plus the dealer is still gonna pick up a lot. You gotta great hand to set the dealer with, don't blow that opportunity by ordering up the Right and fighting for a point. Plus you compliment a next call well.

There's just no good reason to take matters into our own hands right now. Ordering a bower up with this hand will create a ton of technical mistakes. I.E. every time you play your hand in a way you would not if you could see everyone's cards you have made a technical mistake. Every time you call this and the dealer would've called had you passed you made a technical mistake (This will happen quite often with the Jack up). Every time you call this and fight for a point when your partner had a 2nd round call that would've made at least a point you have made a technical mistake. Don't forget those times your partner is sitting on a 2nd round loner or had a 2 point call.
RedDuke wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:01 am
I'd pass if we're in the lead because you've got the loner blocked. But otherwise, with nowhere to go in the next round except for maybe a hail mary next call, you've gotta risk giving the dealer the right.
No where to go in the 2nd round?? You are in the 3rd seat. Euchre is not an individual game. It is a team game. It is your partner's job in seat 1--the most important seat in the game--to figure out where to take your team in the 2nd round. Not yours. The fact that you hit a Next call well makes the argument for passing even that much stronger.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:03 pm

Thanks RedDuke and Wes for your responses. I invite others to post as well.

Interestingly I’m in the middle. RedDuke wants to call. I am on the edge. Wes says pass. Let’s look more deeply.

We all agree that we have to consider passing. So we also agree that it is an edge call.

Wes’ interesting point is, “Ordering a Bower up with this hand will create a ton of technical mistakes. IE Every time you play your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone’s hand.” I can picture his concept. I think that we need to work on the explanation and the description to avoid Technical Mistakes.

Playing your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone's hand is vague and creates the impression that you need ESP to not make technical mistakes. It also conflicts with the concept that you have to play the cards that you can see. "Technical Mistake" creates the impression that you are missing some tiny little detail. Wes' results, and most of his explanations, are impressive. So I want to glean everything that I can, even when everything inside of me says, "avoid all of that gibberish and nonsense."

Wes' over arching point is 100% sound. You eliminate the benefit of good possible outcomes when you choose to call. That is impossible to dispute. His next point is, "this will happen quite often with the jack up." Again he is spot on. You have eliminated the benefits of Dealer passing, if you call. His next point is, you have eliminated the possibility of your Seat 1 partner calling and possibly even going Alone. Again, he is 100% on target. So I have no issue with Wes' logic. I just can't lock in to the wording. I'm confident that there are one or two others that have the same issue.

I suggest the term "Dynamic Possibilities." Dynamic because every decision changes the possible outcomes (future possibilities). (Average people only consider static, in the past information). Possibilities because you need to consider that your marginal or weak hand means that your Partner has possibilities because your hand is weak! Wes added a bonus point! "The fact that you hit a Next call well makes the argument for passing even that much stronger." It is not ESP, you are making decisions, based on possible outcomes (odds and probabilities).

Let's apply that guidance to the hand we are discussing. Your hand is marginal (weak). There is a possibility that the Dealer's hand is weak because you have some strength. Therefore the Dealer may pass. Your partner's hand is possibly strong (because your hand is not too strong). He may have a solid call or even a Loner. Therefore, because of these factors, Wes says to pass with the hand we are discussing.

What is my take, since I called in this situation? Remember I won the particular hand. I will adjust BPS to guide me to seek additional information when my Seat 3 points are 2.75 to 3.00. (Until this post, I would call with 2.75 points). With this hand, since I could help Seat 1, Partner's Next, Possible Round 2 Call, I would pass. (Having 2.75 points informs me that I have a good chance to euchre the Dealer). I would not call, without further evaluation, until I have 3.25 points.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:46 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:03 pm
Wes’ interesting point is, “Ordering a Bower up with this hand will create a ton of technical mistakes. IE Every time you play your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone’s hand.” I can picture his concept. I think that we need to work on the explanation and the description to avoid Technical Mistakes.
The concept I'm talking about was first delineated by David Sklansky:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_poker
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:03 pm
Playing your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone's hand is vague and creates the impression that you need ESP to not make technical mistakes.
Technical mistakes will always happen in any game where you have to make decisions based on incomplete information. These aren't real mistakes mind you. The goal is to make correct decisions with the information we have. Nevertheless this concept is important since obviously we'd like to lower the probability of making technical mistakes if we can. The relevance of this concept really only shows up on our 3rd seat, 1st round decisions. It is a big reason why 3rd seat, 1st round is such a mindf**k spot and yet another reason why we should play very tight from that spot.

IMO most other spots in euchre kinda play themselves. Either you have an obvious call/pass decision or you're compelled to make certain calls for defensive purposes. 3rd seat, 1st round is a different animal.

Although I have talked about this concept coming up in the 2 seat, 1st rd before. E.G. if you pass Right + 1 from the 2 seat you will induce your partner to make a ton of technical mistakes. Damn near every day I play on the app I pass a weak hand from the dealer spot and then see that my partner passed Right + 1, and we would've have scored an easy point. Instead we end up losing 1 to 4 points. It's infuriating.

Back to 3rd seat calls. It's just such a high percentage of time that when I do call I end up regretting it. Either the dealer would've picked up had I passed, or my partner had an easy 2nd round call for at least a point meaning I took a risk for no reason. It constantly makes me wonder what the hell I should call from that spot!

Here's an interesting example hand from 3rd seat, 1st round worth looking at:

http://borf_books.tripod.com/ecolum11.htm#nextwait

I personally call with that hand, mostly out of fear that my partner will pass in the 2nd round and expose my team to a reverse next loner, which points to another euchre truism: The better your partner is the tighter you should play from 3rd, and conversely if your partner passes a lot from 1st seat, 2nd round you have to loosen up but only a tad as you just don't have a lot of room to maneuver from the 3rd spot, 1st round.

An example hand of making a VERY debatable pass from 3rd seat, 1st round assuming you can trust your partner:

http://borf_books.tripod.com/ecolum51.htm#gottabelieve

Personally, I would never dare pass that hand. But I suppose one should be open to the possibility that passing could be right under specific circumstances.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:03 pm
' over arching point is 100% sound. You eliminate the benefit of good possible outcomes when you choose to call. That is impossible to dispute. His next point is, "this will happen quite often with the jack up." Again he is spot on. You have eliminated the benefits of Dealer passing, if you call. His next point is, you have eliminated the possibility of your Seat 1 partner calling and possibly even going Alone. Again, he is 100% on target. So I have no issue with Wes' logic. I just can't lock in to the wording. I'm confident that there are one or two others that have the same issue.


I guess one way to say it is so many good things can happen when we pass a decent hand from 3rd. The dealer picks up anyways, or the dealer passes and our partner has a hand that scores 1 to 4 points. Whereas when we call we are usually just fighting for a point trying not to get euchred. This mindf**k dynamic coupled with the fact that we don't have the lead and can get overtrumped really highlights why we should play super tight from this spot. How tight is always debatable and the nature of our partner does play a role but like I said before, not that much of a role since we don't have much wiggle room to work with anyways from 3rd, first rd.

It's funny, whenever I'm around any euchre players I will be able to make two predictions with confidence. I'm gonna be the most aggressive player in the room, piling up the most euchres and pissing people off in the process, and I will also be the tightest player in the room from 3rd, 1st rd. Invariably, I will be right. The other day in the tournament I play in I saw the most passive lady in the room pondering a 3rd seat, 1st round call that I would never make. She eventually passed, but it underscores what I'm talking about. Most people don't realize how tight they need to be from 3rd, 1st rd, even passers can tend to call too much from that spot.

Excluding the obvious loner hands, really the only 3rd seat calls I feel good about are JJX hands or Right + 2 and an off ace.

PS: One more fun example from real life. I was in the tournament. Score is 0-0.

Dealer upcard is the (Card_J-C)

Action's on me from the 3rd seat with (Card_A-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S)

I strongly considered passing this hand. Why call for a maximum of 1 point when the dealer might pick up, or if the dealer passes my partner might have at least a 1 point 2nd round hand anyways. Keep in mind not only do I hit a next call (which has debatable value since it's gonna be very difficult for my partner to even make a next call given the cards I hold), but my hand can still help out any Red call since I do have two aces. Well I ended up calling becuz my partner passes too much and I didn't wanna risk getting owned by a 2nd rd red loner from the 2 spot. Well my call ended up scoring a point, but of course my partner had a laydown loner in diamonds and the dealer claimed she would've passed. Sigh. I know we don't have ESP, but it really is amazing how often you will end up regretting your 3rd seat, 1st round calls once you see all the cards play out.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:15 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:46 am

The concept I'm talking about was first delineated by David Sklansky:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_poker
That article said: "The Fundamental Theorem of Poker is simply expressed and appears axiomatic, yet its proper application to the countless varieties of circumstances that a poker player may face requires a great deal of knowledge, skill, and experience."

It is not ESP. It is knowledge, skill and experience. This is the BPS - Basic thread. So "Basic" players understand that Wes is helping us to understand Advanced bidding and playing. Please bear with me. There are a number of basic points that anyone can use.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:03 pm
Playing your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone's hand is vague and creates the impression that you need ESP to not make technical mistakes.
ESP is even mentioned in the article!

The article also said, "In probabilistic terms, this is an application of the law of total expectation."

I suggest Wes, that you use "Total Expectation" as a description of your approach.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:46 am
The relevance of this concept really only shows up on our 3rd seat, 1st round decisions. It is a big reason why 3rd seat, 1st round is such a mindf**k spot and yet another reason why we should play very tight from that spot.

Back to 3rd seat calls. It's just such a high percentage of time that when I do call I end up regretting it. Either the dealer would've picked up had I passed, or my partner had an easy 2nd round call for at least a point meaning I took a risk for no reason. It constantly makes me wonder what the hell I should call from that spot! /quote]

It's funny, whenever I'm around any euchre players I will be able to make two predictions with confidence. I'm gonna be the most aggressive player in the room, piling up the most euchres and pissing people off in the process, and I will also be the tightest player in the room from 3rd, 1st rd. Invariably, I will be right. The other day in the tournament I play in I saw the most passive lady in the room pondering a 3rd seat, 1st round call that I would never make. She eventually passed, but it underscores what I'm talking about. Most people don't realize how tight they need to be from 3rd, 1st rd, even passers can tend to call too much from that spot.

Excluding the obvious loner hands, really the only 3rd seat calls I feel good about are JJX hands or Right + 2 and an off ace.
The simple take away is that average players call too often from Seat 3.
So in Wes' language, tighten your calling a tad.
In BPS language, increase the point total by 0.25 (a tad) to determine when to call from Seat 3.

Conversely, call more from Seats 2 & 4 in Round 1.
So in Wes' language, loosen your calling a tad.
In BPS language, decrease the point total by 0.25 (a tad) to determine when to call from Seat 2 or Seat 4, Round 1. [This is already reflected in the opening post of this thread, BPS - Basic.]
Last edited by Richardb02 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

RedDuke
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:25 am

Conversely, call more from Seats 2 & 4 in Round 1.
So in Wes' language, loosen your calling a tad.
In BPS language, decrease the point total by 0.25 (a tad) to determine when to call from Seat 3, Round 1. [This is already reflected in the opening post of this thread, BPS - Basic.]
Seat 4 Round 1 is probably the absolute best position in the game to call from because you have last play (so can use the lowest trump needed to take the first trick) and because you get to pick up an extra card. It astonishes me that so many players pass so often from that position.

Richardb02
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:37 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:25 am

Seat 4 Round 1 is probably the absolute best position in the game to call from because you have last play (so can use the lowest trump needed to take the first trick) and because you get to pick up an extra card. It astonishes me that so many players pass so often from that position.
Yes, absolutely. And players that pass too often need the BPS. Experienced players don't need it, they have a system that performs similarly.

Let's find a couple Seat 4, Round 1 "Edge" calls.

Up (Card_K-S) Seat 4 Score Neutral Players equal and average
(Card_Q-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H)
The BPS Evaluation after discarding Qd:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.50 Ac
2.00 Total points, which is my "definitely call" edge. So I would call.

1.75 Total points, is my "consider" edge. My main consideration is, do I have Kx trump or higher? If yes I would call.
Would you call or pass on this hand?

Lets look at 1 trump and 2 Aces:
Up (Card_K-S) Seat 4 Score Neutral Players equal and average
(Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-C)
The BPS Evaluation after discarding Tc:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ks
0.50 Ad
0.75 Ah (Singleton Green Ace)
-.50 Only 1 trump
1.75 Which means is "consider" call. Singleton K trump is weaker than K9. So I would pass.
Would you call or pass on this hand?

I will clarify some important points on the first post of this thread. The 1st post details how to use the BPS. I will add a specific section on when to call.

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