Leading aces questions

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jblowery
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Leading aces questions

Post by jblowery » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:06 pm

I know green aces are typically better to lead but what about when I'm to the right of the caller and my lead. Say spades was called and I just have a low one and also a low club. However I have
(Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-D).
Would I lead the green ace or the non green ace? Doesn't seem as obvious in this position. A trump can always get overtrumped and I've used double leads to euchre people a lot.

2nd question: if I get it with the non green ace do i double lead through the caller or go with my green one?

3rd question: I have A-K-10 (non trump) of the same suit so im unlikely to take the trick. Other 2 cards are junk. Non trump. What do I lead? I have the first lead. Is it different depending upon who called it?



RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:07 am

You're right of the caller? So second seat called?

I'd lead the Ace of Diamonds. Either one can be a decent lead (don't lead clubs or spades) but my experience is that an Ace lead from a doubleton is more likely to be trumped than a single ace. Honestly though, this is probably not going to be a hand that you can euchre the opponents on unless your partner is loaded to the teeth with high trumps so the goal here is for you to take the first trick so you can limit your opponent to one point. The Ace of Diamonds lead is more likely to accomplish that goal than the Ace-Hearts.

Richardb02
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:05 pm

jblowery wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:06 pm
I know green aces are typically better to lead but what about when I'm to the right of the caller and my lead. Say spades was called and I just have a low one and also a low club. However I have
(Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-D).
Would I lead the green ace or the non green ace? Doesn't seem as obvious in this position. A trump can always get overtrumped and I've used double leads to euchre people a lot.

2nd question: if I get it with the non green ace do i double lead through the caller or go with my green one?

3rd question: I have A-K-10 (non trump) of the same suit so im unlikely to take the trick. Other 2 cards are junk. Non trump. What do I lead? I have the first lead. Is it different depending upon who called it?
I would like to check Euchre terms. I thought Green Aces were the Aces in the opposite color of the trump suit. In this case both (Card_A-H) (Card_A-D) are green Aces?

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:27 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:05 pm
jblowery wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:06 pm
I know green aces are typically better to lead but what about when I'm to the right of the caller and my lead. Say spades was called and I just have a low one and also a low club. However I have
(Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-D).
Would I lead the green ace or the non green ace? Doesn't seem as obvious in this position. A trump can always get overtrumped and I've used double leads to euchre people a lot.

2nd question: if I get it with the non green ace do i double lead through the caller or go with my green one?

3rd question: I have A-K-10 (non trump) of the same suit so im unlikely to take the trick. Other 2 cards are junk. Non trump. What do I lead? I have the first lead. Is it different depending upon who called it?
I would like to check Euchre terms. I thought Green Aces were the Aces in the opposite color of the trump suit. In this case both (Card_A-H) (Card_A-D) are green Aces?
Correct. I've also heard some people refer to the green suits as being the ones that are the opposite color as the turn card if it was rejected. This could get confusing if second seat used the K-9 kicker strategy. Normally though, a Green Ace is an ace in the opposite color as trump, so if Clubs are trump then both the Ace-Hearts and Ace-Diamonds are green aces.

Richardb02
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:33 pm

jblowery wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:06 pm
I know green aces are typically better to lead but what about when I'm to the right of the caller and my lead. Say spades was called and I just have a low one and also a low club. However I have
(Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_A-D).
Would I lead the green ace or the non green ace? Doesn't seem as obvious in this position. A trump can always get overtrumped and I've used double leads to euchre people a lot.

2nd question: if I get it with the non green ace do i double lead through the caller or go with my green one?

3rd question: I have A-K-10 (non trump) of the same suit so im unlikely to take the trick. Other 2 cards are junk. Non trump. What do I lead? I have the first lead. Is it different depending upon who called it?
Thank you RedDuke for clarifying that both (Card_A-H) and (Card_A-D) are Green Aces.

Are the right terms: (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) Doubleton Green Ace and
(Card_A-D) a Singleton Green Ace?


Using those terms, let's revisit jblowery's 2nd question.

By playing the Singleton Green Ace (Card_A-D), there is no need to deal with a problematic double lead.

That leads to my follow up question. Assuming that the (Card_A-D) walks, is there any reason not to play the Doubleton Green Ace (Card_A-H) ?

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:28 pm

The reason to play the singleton Green Ace first is that it's less likely to be trumped. There are 6 cards in each green suit, 7 in trump, and 5 in next. So, if you don't have any other cards of the single green ace in your hand, then there are 5 split amongst the other players (or the kitty). That's better than any suit that you'd have a doubleton in or next. You generally don't want to lead trump unless you have reason to believe that your opponents are short trump (if you have three of them in your hand, one of which is a bower, for example).
That leads to my follow up question. Assuming that the (Card_A-D) walks, is there any reason not to play the Doubleton Green Ace (Card_A-H) ?
That's what I usually do, although there's a good chance one of your opponents will trump it. The only other thing that I can think of to try is to lead next and hope your partner can take it. This sometimes works if second seat made trump (especially in second round). What will oftentimes happen in that scenario is that second seat trumps it with a low trump (9 or 10) and then your partner can overtrump.

I'd lead the Ace though. If that walks, lead hearts again and hope your partner can trump it.

jblowery
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:26 am

Thanks for the clairifcation. Yes, singleton vs. doubleton green ace. I asked because I've had some luck leading the same suite twice in a row through the caller if he is on my left. He typically doesn't trump it unless he has a super strong hand. On the other hand, his partner gets to play the final card.

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:09 am

jblowery wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:26 am
Thanks for the clairifcation. Yes, singleton vs. doubleton green ace. I asked because I've had some luck leading the same suite twice in a row through the caller if he is on my left. He typically doesn't trump it unless he has a super strong hand. On the other hand, his partner gets to play the final card.
That's also a common strategy used in euchre to hand the lead to your partner. The hope is that the caller will trump it with a low trump and then your partner will overtrump and take the trick and the lead, thus maybe allowing your partner to take a third trick for the euchre. Or if they called with a three trump/two suited hand, your partner can take the trick with a low trump. This seems to work best when the dealer is the maker though.

jblowery
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:41 am

What would you lead when you have a tripleton green ace or doubleton next ace and nothing else good to lead? Would it depend upon whether your partner ordered or not? I've typically led the ace when my opponents order but when it is my partner I've struggled between a lower card (e.g. King) and Ace. One advantage of leading the king is that it signals to my partner to trump it. However, it can get overtrumped by the opponents on the 4th card so I went back to just leading the ace. If I had Ace-Queen-10 I think I would always lead the ace because I'd hate to lose it with an opponents King.

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:15 pm

jblowery wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:41 am
What would you lead when you have a tripleton green ace or doubleton next ace and nothing else good to lead? Would it depend upon whether your partner ordered or not? I've typically led the ace when my opponents order but when it is my partner I've struggled between a lower card (e.g. King) and Ace. One advantage of leading the king is that it signals to my partner to trump it. However, it can get overtrumped by the opponents on the 4th card so I went back to just leading the ace. If I had Ace-Queen-10 I think I would always lead the ace because I'd hate to lose it with an opponents King.
Wow.

That's a pretty hard position to be in. If your opponents called (especially the dealer) then it's a pretty good bet that at least one of them would be void in either suit. This is especially true if the dealer picked up.

In both cases, there's only three cards in either suit that are in the wild. The odds that one of each suit are in the hands of the other players are pretty slim. You can expect that at least one player would be void. Hopefully it's your partner.

Definitely don't lead either ace if your partner called. If you do, he'll more than likely slough off and then the dealer will take the trick with a trump. Assuming your partner is a somewhat experienced player, if he's calling from third seat then he's loaded to the teeth with trumps (and can probably overtrump second seat if necessary) so you want to pass him the lead. A lower lead in either suit is the best way to do that (I'd probably lead next, preferably the king if you have it, but any card that your partner knows he should trump will work).

If the opponents called first round (doesn't matter which), I'd probably lead the green king. Dealer is almost certain to be void in next and has the last play so he can overtrump your partner. Your partner is more likely to be void in a green suit than in next so this play has a slightly higher chance of passing the lead to your partner than leading next.

Honestly though, on a first round call, you're not very likely to euchre your opponents unless your partner is basically bagging them. The goal here should really be to stop them from making march and your best chance of doing that is leading something that your partner can take first trick.

jblowery
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:28 pm

So on a 1st round call by opponents when you have a couple low cards and then A+2 of green suite (or A+1 of next) it is better to lead the low card than the ace or king of the suite you are heavy in?

RedDuke
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:11 pm

jblowery wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:28 pm
So on a 1st round call by opponents when you have a couple low cards and then A+2 of green suite (or A+1 of next) it is better to lead the low card than the ace or king of the suite you are heavy in?

The problem is that a green suit has a total of 6 cards. If three are in your hand, then there are three left spread amongst the other players and the kitty. The next suit has 5 cards so if you have two then there are 3 spread amongst the other players and the kitty.

On a first round call, the dealer gets to discard. The question is what he discards but it should be pretty obvious that at least one player is almost certain to have a void in both of the suits in your hand.

The logic behind the next call is that your partner is more likely to have cards in next than your opponents are. Thus, if you lead next, at least one of the opponents will probably have a void in it and trump you. Your partner is a bit less likely than the opponents to have a void so he can't overtrump if for example second seat trumps.

However, in this case your opponents ordered up. The question is which one? Usually when someone orders up, especially if it's the dealer, they're going to have only two suits in their hand. Usually that'll be a green suit and trump.

The green ace is more likely to get through than the ace of next but odds are that one opponent is probably void in that suit too considering that the dealer got to discard and the three in your hand. If the dealer isn't void, he probably has two in that same suit, meaning that his partner is probably void.

As you can see, the odds that somebody can trump either ace is pretty high, although the dealer has an even better chance of doing that than second seat. If both your partner and second seat are void, then he'll overtrump second seat if he can no matter what you lead. So there's no need to worry about that.

The bigger problem is the dealer. If you lead an ace and second seat has to follow suit then your partner is going to be loathe to trump it even if he has a void. That'll let the dealer take it with a small trump. Therefore, what you want to do is lead something that'll trigger your partner to trump it if he can and trump it with something big (like say the left or the ace). That'll force the dealer to either use a big trump to take it, which he might not be able to afford, or just let your partner take it, which will prevent them from making march.

Of course, if for some reason nobody has a void, you want to take the trick yourself. Leading the green king (if you have it) seems to be the best option for this reason since you know you'll win the trick unless somebody has a trump.

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