Euchre Hand Spot

[coolguy69]

Player is in Seat 1 with AcKcQcJh10h
Up card is Ad
Score 0-0

Pass pass pass pass

Up to player - call clubs or hearts?

For some reason, I want to call hearts more than clubs, even though my math brain thinks clubs is better, I just have a weird gut feeling about this spot... lol.

In game, I called hearts, lead the right, played ace & king both went through, partner had next loaded so we got 2pts.

In theory also this feels strong b/c even if opponents trump clubs, we can trump next non-trump lead with 10h and again have boss lead with Kc. As long as partner has at least 2 hearts we're generally going to get 1 pt...and playing clubs just feels awkward a f

[Wes (aka the legend)]

You played it well. Next is the call here with R+1+A. I would also go alone here if desperate like down 9-6 or something.

[Tbolt65]

I can't fault you for calling either or.

However at 0-0, I'm calling Hearts, Leading the Right and Running the Clubs until the cows come home,


Tbolt65

Edward

[Wes (aka the legend)]

Didn't even look at the screen name. Hope everything is going well Tom. I miss my vegan compatriot!

[irishwolf]

I have to comment on this Hearts vs Clubs.

NOT EVEN CLOSE - call hearts.

Clubs you are crossing suit - and S3 is more likely to have hearts and diamonds. Crossing suit you have JS & JS out against you and you have poor off suit. The dealer most likely will not have the JD unless a poor player or loaded in next knowing you are likely to call Next.

Consider what it requires in a possible euchred here.

There are two ways. One opponent has to have 3 trumps and when he leads an off-suit opponents have to have the boss off suit card. S3 might have that AS or AD to get your point even if he does. The other is that each opponent has to have two hearts each and a boss card in Spades or Diamonds. Both are low probabilities. So you really only need your partner to avoid a euchre and he is no help in these particular situations about half the time anyway (no boss card Diamonds or Spades).

However, the call here unless you are at 8 or 9 is GO ALONE. You will make your loner is opponents have 1 trump each or no trumps. The euchre rate is still about the same if one opponent has 3 hearts and slightly less with 2 trumps each. But the payoff is so much higher [almost double not going alone in hearts and far better than clubs] that not going alone or calling clubs is not even close to EV. All those sweeps in hearts would be successful loners.

That's my position and I am sticking to it!

IRISHWOLF

[irishwolf]

Okay, that was too easy to answer.

However, the real question is if you switched the JH in S1 hand with another smaller Heart what would you call? What if it was the JD, or KH or QH?

The real test is what hand in hearts now gives Parity between calling Hearts vs Clubs?

IRISHWOLF

[coolguy69]

Didn't even look at the screen name. Hope everything is going well Tom. I miss my vegan compatriot!

Things are good. Hanging in Michigan. This spot came up against my older family member who thought he was better at Euchre than me... which made it fun to make some cool plays he never saw.

Turns out in this spot listed above, my p (brother) had blood red and we got 2 pts. Good to know Hearts is the call here.

Another spot at 9-7 I donated seat 1 (my dad had a loner... not sure if he would have actually gone with it). Got "heckled" for it Next hand at 9-9 called up a with (some shit hand like this)... p had and right/left were buried...picking up the win and lots of talk saying I'm "lucky"

[bmw]

How about this one which I encountered recently?

I'm in seat 2, up, everyone passed, I can call.



Clubs or Spades? My general experience of Left+2 (especially weak 2) is horrible - I seem to get set more than half the time whenever I call that hand, no matter the other factors. I did call spades as that added an off-ace to my hand and did barely take it.

[justme]

Spades is the worthwhile call here. 3 trump and an ace is a good call. Good chance your partner has trump to help since he turned down red suit. This call will make the point most of the time, and some time it might seem like you just made your point.

You never mentioned the score. Perhaps ordering the ace to your partner was in order?

[Wes (aka the legend)]

Okay, that was too easy to answer.

However, the real question is if you switched the JH in S1 hand with another smaller Heart what would you call? What if it was the JD, or KH or QH?

The real test is what hand in hearts now gives Parity between calling Hearts vs Clubs?

IRISHWOLF

Switch the JH with any heart = I call hearts. Switch the JH with the JD = I still call hearts.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

How about this one which I encountered recently?

I'm in seat 2, up, everyone passed, I can call.



Clubs or Spades? My general experience of Left+2 (especially weak 2) is horrible - I seem to get set more than half the time whenever I call that hand, no matter the other factors. I did call spades as that added an off-ace to my hand and did barely take it.

Definitely call spades.

[irishwolf]

Yes, spades is a good call and the best lead is a low trump. You are crossing suit so don't expect too much from your pard as he most likely has diamonds and hearts. But you only have two tricks calling Spades. The opponent that has the JS will more often than not also have , , or to guard the Right. To win the trick low and come back with the JS. And one of the opponents might have two trumps (not the JS). Thus, S1 is dependent upon his partner to win a trick MOST of the time for a point.

I contend that calling clubs, leading a low spade to the first trick is also a decent call as you still have two tricks the way I would play this hand. Thus I see clubs or spades just about equal. And pass is not a bad call if S2 always calls black in this situation. S2 passes, S3 can call anything he wants to and you have lots of help!

You have options.

IRISHWOLF

[justme]

Yes, spades is a good call and the best lead is a low trump. You are crossing suit so don't expect too much from your pard as he most likely has diamonds and hearts. But you only have two tricks calling Spades. The opponent that has the JS will more often than not also have , , or to guard the Right. To win the trick low and come back with the JS. And one of the opponents might have two trumps (not the JS). Thus, S1 is dependent upon his partner to win a trick MOST of the time for a point.

I contend that calling clubs, leading a low spade to the first trick is also a decent call as you still have two tricks the way I would play this hand. Thus I see clubs or spades just about equal. And pass is not a bad call if S2 always calls black in this situation. S2 passes, S3 can call anything he wants to and you have lots of help!

You have options.

IRISHWOLF

Your reply seems to assume the example hand in question is held in seat 1. It is actually a seat 2 call in question so when trump is made the holder of the hand doesn't lead the first trick.

[irishwolf]

Justme:

Yes, I did change the hand to Seat 1 and more challenging because crossing suit, I think. From Seat 2, (too easy) Spades might be a better call (no brainer call black), can't pass. And if you have a partner that is bagging on Next then clubs is a better call.

So now you have it both ways.

IRISHWOLF

[Wes (aka the legend)]

Switch the JH with any heart = I call hearts. Switch the JH with the JD = I still call hearts.

One exception I forgot to "switch the JH with any heart = I call hearts". If we switch the JH to the AH we are then actually better off calling clubs having 3 trump and an outside suited ace. Ray tested this hand at my place back in 2022. He watched me play out this scenario at my weekly tournament. I called Next in that scenario and made my point but it turns out crossing the river is better. There are other factors tho that a simulation might not pick up like if S3 sandbags alot be more likely to call Next or if the dealer is really aggressive be more likely to call Next and conversely if S2 or S4 are more passive clubs is even more likely to beat out next in this scenario.

[irishwolf]

I agree with this statement in regard to the original Post in this thread: ". . . switch the JH to the AH we are then actually better off calling clubs having 3 trump and an outside suited ace."

However, switch the JH with KH, QH you are now at Parity. Then the call becomes the confidence you have in how your partner and the dealer play (and score).

IRISHWOLF

[justme]

How about this one which I encountered recently?

I'm in seat 2, up, everyone passed, I can call.



Clubs or Spades? My general experience of Left+2 (especially weak 2) is horrible - I seem to get set more than half the time whenever I call that hand, no matter the other factors. I did call spades as that added an off-ace to my hand and did barely take it.

In addition to my original reply that suggested spades is the call to make from seat 2 after the Ad is turned, I will suggest (without expounding), regardless which seat holds Jc Ac Jd 9s 10s, if the opportunity for the holder to make trump arises (seat 1 - 4) the prudent call is spades. From any seat this call will pay off more than fail or at least in the long run break even.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

However, switch the JH with KH, QH you are now at Parity. Then the call becomes the confidence you have in how your partner and the dealer play (and score).

IRISHWOLF

I like this.

[jblowery]

I'm definitely calling hearts but going to actually lead clubs. The problem is that if I lead the rt on 1st trick and either opponent has 2 trump I'm easily getting euchered. That ace is extremely dirty. If it was a green ace for example I would lead the rt first.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

Jblowery: I'm definitely calling hearts but going to actually lead clubs. The problem is that if I lead the rt on 1st trick and either opponent has 2 trump I'm easily getting euchered. That ace is extremely dirty. If it was a green ace for example I would lead the rt first.

Gotta lead the Right in that spot. I'm confident a sim will support that. It's not that hard to get euchred here. As long as none of your opponents have 3 trump and you're not up against both of them having 2 trump, you're guaranteed a point, and those unfortunate times you are up against 3 or 2-2, your P will sometimes bail you out.

[bmw]

I had a tough spot today. 9-9 game. I'm the dealer. Everyone passed. Now up to me what to do.

My hand:


Up card:


Do you pick that up and discard your jack of spades or pass? I picked it up and we ultimately lost the hand 3-2. Partner told me afterwards it was a bad call. Your thoughts? My thinking was opponent was likely to call and that it would be something other than clubs, which I could not defend against other than 1 lone trick if they called spades. My intuition was right as the opponent had a solid diamond hand and would likely have called and it would have been an easy win for them. At least I had a chance with the hearts if everyone had mostly garbage hands.

[Richardb02]

I had a tough spot today. 9-9 game. I'm the dealer. Everyone passed. Now up to me what to do.

My hand:


Up card:


Hi BMW, the 9-9 score is the deciding factor. You have to order even a very light hand, Your hand is arguably breakeven. You made the right call, imo.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

I had a tough spot today. 9-9 game. I'm the dealer. Everyone passed. Now up to me what to do.

My hand:


Up card:


Do you pick that up and discard your jack of spades or pass? I picked it up and we ultimately lost the hand 3-2. Partner told me afterwards it was a bad call. Your thoughts? My thinking was opponent was likely to call and that it would be something other than clubs, which I could not defend against other than 1 lone trick if they called spades. My intuition was right as the opponent had a solid diamond hand and would likely have called and it would have been an easy win for them. At least I had a chance with the hearts if everyone had mostly garbage hands.

If my partner is an expert I pass. An expert's range will be so weak in this spot, calling this marginal of a hand will just be committing seppuku. If my P is an amateur or I have no read on my P I call. So basically 95%+ of the time I'm making the same call as you.

[irishwolf]

This comment is Spot on:

If my partner is an expert I pass. An expert's range will be so weak in this spot, calling this marginal of a hand will just be committing seppuku.

You have at best, one (1 1/2) trick. And since you have black covered, there a possibility your Pard has next covered even though you are playing against the wind.

Wolf

[Richardb02]

I agree 100% with Wes and Wolf:
"If my partner is an expert I pass. An expert's range will be so weak in this spot, calling this marginal of a hand will just be committing seppuku[set-ukur or suicide-euchre]."
If I was playing with or against Wes or Wolf (and I have), I would definitely pass.
But Wes summed up the reality even if you are a world class player, who happens to be playing random games:
"So basically 95%+ of the time I'm making the same call as you."

[Tbolt65]

I had a tough spot today. 9-9 game. I'm the dealer. Everyone passed. Now up to me what to do.

My hand:


Up card:


Do you pick that up and discard your jack of spades or pass? I picked it up and we ultimately lost the hand 3-2. Partner told me afterwards it was a bad call. Your thoughts? My thinking was opponent was likely to call and that it would be something other than clubs, which I could not defend against other than 1 lone trick if they called spades. My intuition was right as the opponent had a solid diamond hand and would likely have called and it would have been an easy win for them. At least I had a chance with the hearts if everyone had mostly garbage hands.

I'd prob. call it up and discard the J-S. Play the best I can and hope to get a point and win.

Tbolt65

Edward

[sdu754]

What would you call here:

Jd-9h-As-10s-9s

Score 0-0 Qd turned down in third seat

My thought process is to go Spades.

[Tbolt65]

What would you call here:

Jd-9h-As-10s-9s

Score 0-0 Qd turned down in third seat

My thought process is to go Spades.

Depending on my partner, but in all if not most cases Im calling Next. Heart's here.

Tbolt65

Edward

[sdu754]

What would you call here:

Jd-9h-As-10s-9s

Score 0-0 Qd turned down in third seat

My thought process is to go Spades.

Depending on my partner, but in all if not most cases Im calling Next. Heart's here.

Tbolt65

Edward

Since you are in third seat, do you want your partner to lead Trump here?

[Tbolt65]

Yes I do. If I call hearts or spades. In either case I'd want my partner to lead trump.

Tbolt65

Edward

[sdu754]

Yes I do. If I call hearts or spades. In either case I'd want my partner to lead trump.

Tbolt65

Edward

That was the actual question. Someone was telling me that it was wrong to lead Trump when your partner calls from third seat. He came back with this specific example to prove me wrong.