I now remember why I came to hate this game

[XaviRonaldo]

After losing 3 in a row on Euchre 3D to get a partner ranked in the top 40 only for neither of us to get playable hands. I then get a partner who should know better ranked 2400 a full 200 points above me decide leading trump to my call wasn't in order despite them holding 2 trump.

So I called next suit holding



I lead offsuit and player to my left takes it with and everyone follows suit. They then lead clubs to which my partner takes it with . Instead of leading one of their 2 trump or at the very least which hasn't been led yet they lead clubs which my RHO had a higher club leaving me vulnerable to being overtrumped. Of course my left opponent held the for the euchre. Yes, if I trumped high I might've gotten out of it but it was reasonable for me to assume my partner had no trump meaning trumping high wouldn't have helped. I would've been euchred no matter what assuming my partner was void.

I really am starting to despise this game.

[Catch10110]

If you lead trump on trick 1, you win this hand.

If my partner isn't leading trump on their own call, i am very hesitant to lead it back to them, unless i am looking to take control.

I don't love their double leading clubs, but on trick 3, it's go big or go home. If you play left or ace on trick 3, again, you're winning this hand.

Sorry, unless i'm missing something, i think this one's on you.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

If you lead trump on trick 1, you win this hand.

True but that doesn't prove leading trump is correct. Looking straight at results IS evidence but usually poor evidence to support a claim. That said I do believe leading trump is correct in that spot and I would always do it leading the Left or the Ace of trump.

(it may be important to note leading with the 9 of trump from this configuration is clearly incorrect)

But I am hesitant to say for sure that leading trump is correct without actual data, ie a good simulation. I think it's close and like you I'd bet my money leading trump, L or A, is correct.

If my partner isn't leading trump on their own call, i am very hesitant to lead it back to them, unless i am looking to take control.

That is another understandable problem. When the OP does not lead trump he can "trick" his P into not leading trump also for reasons you mentioned.

Over the years I've thought about this spot a lot. Situations where it may not be best to lead trump to my Partner the maker. Honestly I've pretty much streamlined my play to just always lead trump to my partner even when they show weakness by not initially leading trump. Once in awhile this approach burns me but I'm betting that overall it's right at least as a general rule.

I don't love their double leading clubs, but on trick 3, it's go big or go home. If you play left or ace on trick 3, again, you're winning this hand.

Yep the double club lead was toxic but that's no excuse for the OP to just give up on the hand. Like you said, gotta trump high. As far as I'm concerned trumping low with the 9H in that spot IS just giving up. Keep fighting! Never surrender on a hand. Trump high and hope for the best. The enemy already has 1 trick and now the OP is offering them another easy trick when the right is still out in the wild. That's just bad euchre.

Sorry, unless i'm missing something, i think this one's on you.

I agree 100%. There's no point complaining about bad partners or letting them put you on tilt. 95% of euchre players are gonna suck to some degree. The onus is still on us to make the best play possible given the situation.

[Tbolt65]

I don't know how many times I've must of said that rating does not and is not a good indicator of skill. Someone could be say be 2400 rated but a 50% player. That's not a skillful player at all. Always take it a case by case and make them prove to you of what they know and don't know and adjust from there.

Im my personal opinion I do not like leading away from trump here on a next call with holding Left/Ace/9 of trump. If you held the right, that's a different story. As it was played, I have to agree with Wes and his statements about giving up on the hand and not going big ect.... I know the partner didnt show you much but still gotta play the left or Ace to give you a chance.

Tbolt65
Edward

[justme]

I don't want this to be perceived as ganging up on the thread author but I'm in complete agreement with every word from from Catch, Tbolt and Wes. They said it all, and much more eloquently that I ever could.

The making of Hearts trump, by you, which I would make every day myself is by no means not lacking danger. Scoring the point is far from a give. But playing those trumps the way they were played surely decreases the long term success rate of this hand, (LA+small trump) and similar ones.

[irishwolf]

Can't hate such an amazing game. I have to comment even if overlaps some other comments. Generally, when you have three trumps you need to be leading one.

The bad play is by S1 the Maker for not leading the JD (Left). Leading the AH is bad lead and so is the 9H. Why is the AH a bad lead? If S3 has JH right guarded he has to play the Right. You can do all the simulations you want, and it will come down to having greater success by leading the Left. I am confident of that. If the opponents have the JH it will fall on your JD lead. If S3 has it unguarded he probably has Diamonds to lead and you can slough some junk. So many bad things can happen by leading low with the S1 has.

Hard to believe 4 unknown diamonds - someone is bagging. Looks like S2 bagged his partner.

Sure, sometimes you will get euchred if S2/S4 has JH AC AS but that probability is low and just the breaks. S1 played scared. Even on that 2nd lead of clubs - must play high you had your chance and blew it. Trump his 2nd club lead high and S2 has to lead back into you. You had two bites at the apple.

You did not say what two trumps S3 had but I am actually okay with his lead of Clubs because he has two trumps. He (S3) knows you did not have the right or you would have led it. He has two trumps (KH, QH) and you have three trumps at the point of the 3rd trick. You certainly cannot play the 9H to his 2nd lead. Play all those combinations of S3 leading clubs vs him leading trump vs what S1/S2/S4 could hold. It comes out about the same leading trump vs clubs just because S3 has KH/QH. What if S1 only has JD/low heart. You will euchre your partner more often than not. He's begging /you to play high to his 2nd club lead. He appears to be a good player that deserves his ranking.

IRISH

[Richardb02]

Good thread and guidance in the responses. I use a more generalized approach in reaching the same conclusions. First, play power when you have power (LA9 of trump is power). Second, don't false card your partner. Playing the L instead of the A then is an easy decision. Wolf covered that issue in detail. Third, give your partner (and favorable card distribution) a chance. Pulling trump improves the probability of making partner's Aces or 2nd trump good.
In addition, we get life lessons from the game. Enjoying the complexity of the simple game and additional complications when players don't play as expected. Never quit, as Wes so simply stated. I would add, expect good things to happen, they are never all bad. I could add more.

[Catch10110]

If you lead trump on trick 1, you win this hand.

True but that doesn't prove leading trump is correct. Looking straight at results IS evidence but usually poor evidence to support a claim. That said I do believe leading trump is correct in that spot and I would always do it leading the Left or the Ace of trump.

Yes, I wasn't tying to be 100% results oriented here - the thought process is what's important. The specific hand is a data point, not proof.

I'm wanting to lead trump on almost any offensive call; for the most part, i need a reason not to.

Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for not leading the 9? The risk of losing the trick without pulling the right? In this specific hand it would work, and a lot of times i want to lead low trump on a next call trying to hit partner's hand. But i can certainly see where a 9 lead into a JK+A holding could be fatal.

[irishwolf]

I have to tune in on this remark:

Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for not leading the 9?

Whole array of reasons:

1) A total leap of faith that the JH will fall leading the 9H;

2) It could be buried and a wasted lead;

3) The combinations of ; ; and just might be held by one of the two opponents, with the rest buried;

4) With what S2 holds, I want a euchre, thus, I would NEVER play my right knowing you most likely had the Left.

5) iF You don't force that Right - you just dug the hole deeper.

Leading the 9H while holding the JD/AH is poor play. Force that Right and evaluate who has what!

That said, the only time as an opponent I might not use the right even if the Left is led is if I also had Right + two low trumps with an off-suit Ace. ALL DEPENDS!

And this leaves plenty of space for Wes to answer the question.

IRISH

[Wes (aka the legend)]

Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for not leading the 9? The risk of losing the trick without pulling the right?

Wolf said it best. So I'll just reiterate:

Yes that's the main reason. Never lead low in this spot when you have Left-Ace-X in trump. When you lead low you invite the unnecessary nightmare possibility of your opponents taking the first trick without having to spend the Right.

Also I agree with Wolf and others that said leading the Left is the best lead to avoid false-carding our P those times he has R+1 (a very marginal negative but a negative nonetheless!)

[Catch10110]

Yeah that all tracks.

Admittedly, my first thought when making a next call is typically to lead low in hopes of hitting partner's right/clear trump, but this holding is a bit of a different story.

Thanks Wes and Irish for your thoughts.

[XaviRonaldo]

I'll defer to the more experience of you guys of my incorrect lead. I'm not going to go into my reasoning for leading offsuit but it's absolutely imperative that you do NOT lead a suit that has already been led to your partner unless Trump has already been drawn. Not leading 1 of your 2 trump when your partner has called is almost always the wrong play. We've already lost 1 trick you are gaining nothing by trying to finesse the hand further when the caller hasn't even expended a trump yet.

My so called wrong lead was based on unknown information. My partner has information of 2 previous tricks. Stands to reason I have at least a boss in 1 offsuit or as was the case here trump tight. A trump lead here is the correct play 99.99999999999999% of the time.

[XaviRonaldo]

If you play left or ace on trick 3, again, you're winning this hand.

Yes, in the case of my partner having 2 trump. But not if they were Trumpless. I was reasonable to assume my partner has no trump therefore the other high ones were quite likely split between the opponents. My only hope was the opponent to my left holding the right bare or it sleeping. If they did and I played high on trick 3 I was likely euchred as the King and Queen were quite likely in the hand of the opponent to my right and I was done.

[XaviRonaldo]

If you lead trump on trick 1, you win this hand.

True but that doesn't prove leading trump is correct. Looking straight at results IS evidence but usually poor evidence to support a claim. That said I do believe leading trump is correct in that spot and I would always do it leading the Left or the Ace of trump.

(it may be important to note leading with the 9 of trump from this configuration is clearly incorrect)

But I am hesitant to say for sure that leading trump is correct without actual data, ie a good simulation. I think it's close and like you I'd bet my money leading trump, L or A, is correct.

If my partner isn't leading trump on their own call, i am very hesitant to lead it back to them, unless i am looking to take control.

That is another understandable problem. When the OP does not lead trump he can "trick" his P into not leading trump also for reasons you mentioned.

Over the years I've thought about this spot a lot. Situations where it may not be best to lead trump to my Partner the maker. Honestly I've pretty much streamlined my play to just always lead trump to my partner even when they show weakness by not initially leading trump. Once in awhile this approach burns me but I'm betting that overall it's right at least as a general rule.

I don't love their double leading clubs, but on trick 3, it's go big or go home. If you play left or ace on trick 3, again, you're winning this hand.

Yep the double club lead was toxic but that's no excuse for the OP to just give up on the hand. Like you said, gotta trump high. As far as I'm concerned trumping low with the 9H in that spot IS just giving up. Keep fighting! Never surrender on a hand. Trump high and hope for the best. The enemy already has 1 trick and now the OP is offering them another easy trick when the right is still out in the wild. That's just bad euchre.

Sorry, unless i'm missing something, i think this one's on you.

I agree 100%. There's no point complaining about bad partners or letting them put you on tilt. 95% of euchre players are gonna suck to some degree. The onus is still on us to make the best play possible given the situation.

Sorry to quote the whole post but I couldn't figure out how to isolate it.

How do you mean I gave up on the hand?

Let's just assume my partner was void in trumps as I think it's reasonable for me to assume in this situation.

If I trumped high and the player to my left held the right only I was almost guaranteed to be euchred because the player to my right probably held 2 trump of which I can only beat 1. Also with the holding of the player to my left all the player to my right hand to do was force out my remaining high trump for the euchre. They only required 1 trump for that.I really think I played the odds best here by hoping the player to my left only held the right.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentive but I really don't think my initial lead was horrible. We can all agree though that club lead was diabolical.

Unless someone who is much better than I at probability can convince me otherwise in regards to the odds. I did not give up at all I just played what I thought were the odds.

I also appreciate that the non trump lead my partner may have been reactionary to my lead but you've gotta play your own hand too. He had 2 trump he's gotta lead one there and certainly bloody not lead clubs of which there are no more than 2 left. Even if my lead was wrong I had no information other than the turned down card. My partner had 2 freaking ticks worth of info. They left me in a horrible position that there was no 100% way out of. If they led trump it was guaranteed to be our point. If in doubt you should always lead trump to your partner's call.

[justme]

Unless someone who is much better than I at probability can convince me otherwise in regards to the odds.

If your knowledge of euchre probabilities is as extensive as you're implying, why do you not cite any to support your own argument?

The most important situational probability I see with this hand is: Leading out which card to trick one by you should give you the most positive long range result? Perhaps it is you who should be offering the numbers for that? Provide some convincing evidence that leading one of your 2 tens is the best move and perhaps all the others who are opposing your conviction in this thread will reconsider their educated outlook.

Euchre is a very difficult game to change one's strategy mindset on their own, and equally as difficult when others try to change it. Because of this phenomenon most euchre players will play many years without improvement in their game and not recognize it. But, then again it's just a game, isn't it?

[Tbolt65]

If you lead trump on trick 1, you win this hand.

True but that doesn't prove leading trump is correct. Looking straight at results IS evidence but usually poor evidence to support a claim. That said I do believe leading trump is correct in that spot and I would always do it leading the Left or the Ace of trump.

(it may be important to note leading with the 9 of trump from this configuration is clearly incorrect)

But I am hesitant to say for sure that leading trump is correct without actual data, ie a good simulation. I think it's close and like you I'd bet my money leading trump, L or A, is correct.

If my partner isn't leading trump on their own call, i am very hesitant to lead it back to them, unless i am looking to take control.

That is another understandable problem. When the OP does not lead trump he can "trick" his P into not leading trump also for reasons you mentioned.

Over the years I've thought about this spot a lot. Situations where it may not be best to lead trump to my Partner the maker. Honestly I've pretty much streamlined my play to just always lead trump to my partner even when they show weakness by not initially leading trump. Once in awhile this approach burns me but I'm betting that overall it's right at least as a general rule.

I don't love their double leading clubs, but on trick 3, it's go big or go home. If you play left or ace on trick 3, again, you're winning this hand.

Yep the double club lead was toxic but that's no excuse for the OP to just give up on the hand. Like you said, gotta trump high. As far as I'm concerned trumping low with the 9H in that spot IS just giving up. Keep fighting! Never surrender on a hand. Trump high and hope for the best. The enemy already has 1 trick and now the OP is offering them another easy trick when the right is still out in the wild. That's just bad euchre.

Sorry, unless i'm missing something, i think this one's on you.

I agree 100%. There's no point complaining about bad partners or letting them put you on tilt. 95% of euchre players are gonna suck to some degree. The onus is still on us to make the best play possible given the situation.

Sorry to quote the whole post but I couldn't figure out how to isolate it.

How do you mean I gave up on the hand?




Let's just assume my partner was void in trumps as I think it's reasonable for me to assume in this situation.

If I trumped high and the player to my left held the right only I was almost guaranteed to be euchred because the player to my right probably held 2 trump of which I can only beat 1. Also with the holding of the player to my left all the player to my right hand to do was force out my remaining high trump for the euchre. They only required 1 trump for that.I really think I played the odds best here by hoping the player to my left only held the right.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentive but I really don't think my initial lead was horrible. We can all agree though that club lead was diabolical.

Unless someone who is much better than I at probability can convince me otherwise in regards to the odds. I did not give up at all I just played what I thought were the odds.

I also appreciate that the non trump lead my partner may have been reactionary to my lead but you've gotta play your own hand too. He had 2 trump he's gotta lead one there and certainly bloody not lead clubs of which there are no more than 2 left. Even if my lead was wrong I had no information other than the turned down card. My partner had 2 freaking ticks worth of info. They left me in a horrible position that there was no 100% way out of. If they led trump it was guaranteed to be our point. If in doubt you should always lead trump to your partner's call.

Wes Means that by not playing a big trump you are giving up on the hand. Ie: not playing to win. In this situation you need to trump high, playing the 9 of trump on a double lead back before trump was pulled is asking to get over trumped and this is going to hurt your team. First you want to trump high enough to "potentially" take the trick but if nothing else it forces Your left hand opponent to trump over you or for them to make a mistake(usually not always) to lay off with say the bare right. Your partner by not leading trump by no means, mean that they have no trump. So you have to try to take the lead. Keep your left protected and pray some how your partner takes a trick or the lead get's back to a position where you can possibly win a third Trick yourself to secure a point and not get euchred.




Tbolt_65

Edward

[sdu754]

I'll defer to the more experience of you guys of my incorrect lead. I'm not going to go into my reasoning for leading offsuit but it's absolutely imperative that you do NOT lead a suit that has already been led to your partner unless Trump has already been drawn. Not leading 1 of your 2 trump when your partner has called is almost always the wrong play. We've already lost 1 trick you are gaining nothing by trying to finesse the hand further when the caller hasn't even expended a trump yet.

My so called wrong lead was based on unknown information. My partner has information of 2 previous tricks. Stands to reason I have at least a boss in 1 offsuit or as was the case here trump tight. A trump lead here is the correct play 99.99999999999999% of the time.

If I'm sitting in the first seat and I called it and didn't lead Trump, I generally don't want my partner to lead Trump. I didn't lead Trump for a reason.

Your lead was wrong regardless of the unknown information. With left + Ace, you should lead the left. You didn't lead Trump, which basically told your partner not to lead Trump. That's on you.

I do hate the double lead of the same offsuit when your partner calls (my biggest pet peeve in euchre), as it puts your partner in a bad spot, but with what you had, you played it wrong. Make the fourth seat buy the trick with the Right. You played wrong on the first and third trick. If you were loaded in Trump at that point (three Trump left) or Two high Trump and an Ace, you should have been able to take your two tricks.

Your partner already got one trick for you, and you called it. It's hard to blame your partner at that point. Even if you consider the club lead to be a mistake, that is only one mistake compared to two much more obvious mistakes by you.

I also have to wonder why you would assume your partner is void in Trump. He likely didn't lead Trump because you didn't lead it on the first trick. I would expect a partner void in Trump to lead an unled suit unless they have nothing but the led suit left.

I have to wonder what your partner had in this hand. Did he only have two Trump and another Spade? I only ask because you allude to him being able to lead a Diamond in the OP, but if two tricks were already played and he had two Trump and a club, he couldn't have a Diamond.

[ddes300]

On 3rd trick leading second club makes sense to me. Maker needs to go big. Only the R takes if the L or ace is played. The mistake happened on the original lead. Maker leads trump to control trump with boss. Makes the A of Spades more likely to win a trick. That's how I would play it. I'm certainly not an expert, but I like to clear trump to make my suite aces more likely to win a trick.

[sdu754]

On 3rd trick leading second club makes sense to me. Maker needs to go big. Only the R takes if the L or ace is played. The mistake happened on the original lead. Maker leads trump to control trump with boss. Makes the A of Spades more likely to win a trick. That's how I would play it. I'm certainly not an expert, but I like to clear trump to make my suite aces more likely to win a trick.

Double leading the same suit when your partner calls is a mistake. It puts your partner in a predicament. If they Trump, they could get over-trumped. If they don't Trump, they are allowing the opponents to win an easy trick. This game was an odd situation, as the caller didn't lead Trump when they could, so it was safe for the partner to assume that a Trump lead was bad. The Partner had only two choices, both of which were bad. Double lead a club or lead a Trump when the first seat caller didn't lead Trump. Leading a Trump here was likely the better call, but the bigger mistakes were made by the caller.

[XaviRonaldo]

You're all missing the point here. Yes if I led high trump first trick I might've won (still not guaranteed). Assuming my partner was trump void (which is absolutely reasonable under the circumstances) it's gotta be almost impossible neither of my opponent held 2 trump.

If it's both no matter what I did I was euchred.

If my LHO held the R+ it was probable my RHO would force out my lone high trump on trick 4 for the euchre if I trumped high. Definitely was if they held 2 themselves.

If my RHO held 2 and my LHO only held the R this was the only way I could get out of it.

You can't go and say it was reasonable my partner thought I didn't want a trump lead (especially after 2 tricks and I haven't used one yet). Then go and say it's unreasonable for me to assume my partner is void when they didn't lead trump.

I was asking for probability of what chance it was there were enough sleeping trump to get me out of trouble if I trumped high assuming my partner was void in trump. I'm confident in saying that's almost impossible but I'm happy to be proven wrong if I'm shown the probability which I wouldn't know how to work out.

[Tbolt65]

You're all missing the point here. Yes if I led high trump first trick I might've won (still not guaranteed). Assuming my partner was trump void (which is absolutely reasonable under the circumstances) it's gotta be almost impossible neither of my opponent held 2 trump.

If it's both no matter what I did I was euchred.

If my LHO held the R+ it was probable my RHO would force out my lone high trump on trick 4 for the euchre if I trumped high. Definitely was if they held 2 themselves.

If my RHO held 2 and my LHO only held the R this was the only way I could get out of it.

You can't go and say it was reasonable my partner thought I didn't want a trump lead (especially after 2 tricks and I haven't used one yet). Then go and say it's unreasonable for me to assume my partner is void when they didn't lead trump.

I was asking for probability of what chance it was there were enough sleeping trump to get me out of trouble if I trumped high assuming my partner was void in trump. I'm confident in saying that's almost impossible but I'm happy to be proven wrong if I'm shown the probability which I wouldn't know how to work out.

Your opening lead wasn't the problem. The problem was playing the 9 of trump on the double lead back of clubs. That's what got you euchred more than anything else. At the crucial stage of the game of third trick in and no trump pulled. You absolutely can not assume your partner is void. Only if you have had some previous notion from earlier play in the hand. Please don't assume based on rating that they would have lead trump. Rating is not a good indicator of how well someone plays or what style someone plays. With new people it's always a case by case and you reasonably have to decide from previous hands played on limited play to make these assumptions or guesses. Now if you have history with said partner, that's a different story and you should be reasonably assured of what they hold......Back to reinforcing the main point of this. with one trick in and a horrible lead by your partner on the third trick. Like I said in my previous post you need to trump high. With no trumped pulled you have to expect the opponent's to have trump but how high and how many is the question. Playing the 9 of hearts is your weakest play here because it only takes a trick if your left hand opponent is void. So Place the Ace or Left(same value if you play either or) on the trick. The only way you lose it if they have the Right Bauer. If that is the case good for you, you are now behind them and have a potential to win the game with them in the lead. If you take it. You know have two tricks in. How ever you still are at risk of getting euchred too but now the only thing that can euchre you is someone having the right Bauer protected which will euchre you. All other holdings you make your point from there on out. So praying /hoping math wise your left hand opponent is out of trump is not the line of thinking you want to ever employ here at this stage in the game with how things have unfolded. In other scenarios, stages of the game in Different situations, you "might" have to do that and hope but this is not one of those spots.



Tbolt65
Edward

[sdu754]

You can't go and say it was reasonable my partner thought I didn't want a trump lead (especially after 2 tricks and I haven't used one yet). Then go and say it's unreasonable for me to assume my partner is void when they didn't lead trump.

Actually, both of my statements are valid.

You called Trump, and you were first to lead, and you didn't lead Trump. You didn't lead Trump for a reason. It is reasonable for your partner to assume that you didn't want Trump led simply because you had the chance and didn't lead it. There has to be a reason why. You could have made a thin call, how is your partner to know? Your Partner also had middling Trump (King and Queen) so he likely wanted to save them in case he needed to Trump in.

Since you didn't lead Trump yourself, you can't expect your partner to lead it back to you. Your non-Trump lead is all the information he had. You automatically assumed he didn't have Trump when you had zero information about the distribution of Trump cards that were out there.

Since you assumed your partner were void in Trump, why would you play the 9? If your partner is void in Trump, you have three and none have been played, that means that four are left. I would assume in that instance that both opponents have Trump. Playing the 9 was the worst choice you could make from that standpoint.

[bmw]

Responding to the thread title, look at this ridiculous set up. Score is 9-9, after I've missed on 2x 1-stopper loners (I had King, opponent had Ace both times) and after getting set on an unlucky card distribution the hand before...

I think this image speaks for itself. I'm the dealer here.

[Tbolt65]

I'm guessing you got euchred?

Tbolt65
Edward