Dealer picks, in first, should you lead the right?

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Dlan
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Dealer picks, in first, should you lead the right?

Unread post by Dlan » Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:48 am

Bidding was passed back to the dealer who picked up the ten. West led the right, assuring him of the next deal at a score of 9 to 9. But was that the best lead?

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raydog
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Unread post by raydog » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:30 pm

You know the opponents (S2/S4) can only get 1 pt. at most, I see no reason to lead your lone R on the first trick. Dealer almost assuredly has more than 1 trump, so will get the lead back later and be able to place any Ace or strong suit. I think you are just limiting your chances of euchring the opponents. I would lead a D, perhaps winning the first trick, perhaps setting up your other D as boss card.

I am not going to simulate this hand because, given the score, S4 is going to make much looser calls, and I can't accurately simulate that.
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Interestingly, I played a hand recently similar to this one but different in 2 important regards. I was in S1 and had the R+1 trump, and S2 ordered up the A of trump. I DIDN'T lead the R, but learned later that S2 had only 2 trump and S4 had only the A picked up - I could have euchred them had I led the R.

So I ran a little scenario to see if, in general, S1 should lead the R if:
1) they have a 2nd trump;
2) they have a non-trump A;
3) S2 is the declarer, R1;
4) an A is turned.

The answer turns out to be yes, BUT they also need to lead their 2nd trump on the 2nd trick, not the off-suit Ace.

I tried again under the same conditions but without S1 having an off-suit Ace. Still better to lead the R, then the 2nd trump.

I then tried switching the turn card to a K (still no off-suit A). Still better to lead the R, then the 2nd trump.

Finally, I tried switching the turn card to a 9 (still no off-suit A). Here it was better to NOT lead the R.

So sometimes draining all those trump in the first couple tricks can really screw things up for opponents, especially if they are counting on trumping void suits a couple of times, and especially if you have high cards in the other suits. This works more reliably when S2 is the one calling trump, as the trump are often more evenly balanced between the two opponents. Never a sure thing, but an added edge.

sdu754
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Unread post by sdu754 » Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:49 am

Leading the Right is an awful move here. The only scenarios where this would make sense is:
1) If the dealer's partner calls it and you are hoping to strip the Trump out of both hands.
2) If you are trying to protect your Aces

Neither of these happen in this instance. He is just showing the dealer where the Right is while stripping Trump from his partner and allowing the dealer to throw away his lowest Trump on the Right.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Jun 21, 2023 12:22 am

Dlan wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:48 am
Bidding was passed back to the dealer who picked up the ten. West led the right, assuring him of the next deal at a score of 9 to 9. But was that the best lead?

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D
Leading the right here was not the best lead in my opinion by the first seat. lead the king or queen of diamonds.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:34 pm

raydog wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:30 pm
I am not going to simulate this hand because, given the score, S4 is going to make much looser calls, and I can't accurately simulate that.
This thinking is actually incorrect down 9-8 if S4 has a competent partner. In such a scenario it is S2's job to loosen up his calls significantly, not S4's. It's now or never and S2 doesnt have to worry about blocking his P's potential loner. So when S2 does actually pass you can know his range is really weak. So weak that we can also say with confidence that S4 made a bad call in the actual hand. Making that kindve weak call after a good player passes in S2 is just committing suicide.

Of course the plot twist to this scenario is if one plays online 95% of the time they will NOT have a competent partner in S2.
raydog wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:30 pm
Interestingly, I played a hand recently similar to this one but different in 2 important regards. I was in S1 and had the R+1 trump, and S2 ordered up the A of trump. I DIDN'T lead the R, but learned later that S2 had only 2 trump and S4 had only the A picked up - I could have euchred them had I led the R.

So I ran a little scenario to see if, in general, S1 should lead the R if:
1) they have a 2nd trump;
2) they have a non-trump A;
3) S2 is the declarer, R1;
4) an A is turned.

The answer turns out to be yes, BUT they also need to lead their 2nd trump on the 2nd trick, not the off-suit Ace.

I tried again under the same conditions but without S1 having an off-suit Ace. Still better to lead the R, then the 2nd trump.

I then tried switching the turn card to a K (still no off-suit A). Still better to lead the R, then the 2nd trump.

Finally, I tried switching the turn card to a 9 (still no off-suit A). Here it was better to NOT lead the R.

So sometimes draining all those trump in the first couple tricks can really screw things up for opponents, especially if they are counting on trumping void suits a couple of times, and especially if you have high cards in the other suits. This works more reliably when S2 is the one calling trump, as the trump are often more evenly balanced between the two opponents. Never a sure thing, but an added edge.
Good stuff Ray. Been taking that line for years vs a S2 call but I'm skeptical vs a dealer call unless we have both bowers.

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