Partner Cramping my Style

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XaviRonaldo
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Partner Cramping my Style

Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Thu May 26, 2022 5:05 am

My recent record has proved I'm an amateur at this game. Can barely hold 50% in single player on Euchre 3D. So I'd like to confirm I'm not crazy here.

Bearing that in mind I may be out of my mind here as my record isn't very good but was my partner's play here wrong? I know hindsight is 20/20 but this seems pretty basic.

Tricks were 2-1 in their favour. Caller was to my left and they led a spade. Spades had been led before which my partner trumped low and won our only trick so far. On this 4th trick lead my partner decides to come in with the left Bauer (which turned out it was boss as the right was asleep). On the earlier spade lead I had shown I was void in spades and the other opponent had followed suit. My only trump was a 10. It seems pretty basic here for my partner to lay off that trick. Even if I had the right Bauer I could play it being void. Why in the world would 2nd hand trump in with 2nd boss here? Of course the caller had the ace of trump to seal the hand.

Is my thinking correct here? It seems obvious but I'm so hard second guessing myself lately with how bad my record is.

Thanks



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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Thu May 26, 2022 8:43 am

Many players believe that you should take a trick whenever you can. The concept of letting a trick go by and giving their partner a chance is yet to be learned.

Just for the record, here are my stats from WoCG. Being close to 50% with random partners is not too bad.



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irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu May 26, 2022 10:59 am

No question, your partner played the 4th trick incorrectly. He must trust the Spade trick to S3. For sure, the maker has another trump and it's not the Right. So many good things can happen by 'trusting' that trick.

However, there are times even if you have a small trump late in a hand with nothing to lead forget about trumping as you will place your partner in peril.

Here is one as an example. 10S is the up card and you are the Dealer. You now 10S KH 9H QC 10C (9D DISCARD) Your partner orders the 10S. You partner ordered with JS 9S AD 10C QH. Suppose , S1 leads AC then leads JH and S3 wins trick 2.

S3 now leads a Diamond (say QD) should you (S4) trump with your 10S?

The ANSWER IS NO! But many good players trump this trick and obstruct their partner. If you had two trumps, trump high and lead.

You must think forward. 1) If you trump you have nothing to lead on trick 4 that has not been led placing your partner in big trouble, your are putting S3 behind your partner. Your partner needs to win trick 3 and lead trump. 2) Since S3 and S1 did not lead the AD there is a good chance your Partner (S2) has the AD. You as a partner unfortunately missed your chance because you had to follow suit. It is too late in the hand to be trumping in mainly because you have nothing good to lead. And your side has to win all three of the next tricks. In this example had you trusted the trick your partner would have won trick 3 with his AD and can now lead his JS (right). Sure an opponent might have two trumps, Left or Ace guarded but so be it (so be it). This is your best play to trust the trick.

You have to play such that you are a partner and an obstructor.

Many "good" players get this WRONG!

IRISH
Last edited by irishwolf on Thu May 26, 2022 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

raydog
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Unread post by raydog » Thu May 26, 2022 11:35 am

That's a great insight, Irish! I never would have thought "what I am going to lead if I win this trick?", and that is critical (since your side needs to win the rest of the tricks). Partner obviously called you up with SOMETHING, let them take the lead [if they actually have a weak hand and don't want or can't take the lead, you are most likely getting euchred anyway].

Going back to the original post, another way of looking at the hand is this: you have won one trick (so sweep stopped - opponents can only win 1 pt. max; THAT was the primary goal). Now you have to focus on getting BOTH last two tricks and euchring them [there is no difference between winning 3 or 4 tricks].

Your partner is fairly sure that their L is good [declarer didn't lead the R when they could, meaning they likely don't have it]. So what is the best way to win BOTh tricks?

1) trump in with the L. Now you have used all your ammo, and are just hoping desperately that your partner can win the last trick (and it's clear the odds of that are low - declarer must have some decent trump remaining)

2) throw off, preserving the L (to win the final trick) and hope your partner can win this 4th trick. Probably won't happen, but I think it's clear that the chances are at least higher than in the 1st scenario.

Just go with the odds.

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 pm

Here is some more info on the 4th trick

https://ohioeuchre.com/E_4th-trick-what ... Euchre.php

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:35 am

XaviRonaldo wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 5:05 am
My recent record has proved I'm an amateur at this game. Can barely hold 50% in single player on Euchre 3D. So I'd like to confirm I'm not crazy here.
I wouldn't feel safe drawing a conclusion about your game without knowing the sample size we're dealing with here. That said I can tell you what % you should be winning in an expert game and an amateur game.

Your win% in an expert game is obvious: 50%, that's all you can hope for. What your win% should be in an amateur game is not so obvious, but I have a HUGE sample size guiding my opinion on this.

I've played around 40K games in the last 5 years (real life + app). I can say with confidence that you should be winning around 60% of your games when you're usually the only strong player in that game.

During 2021, I tracked my stats the entire year in my Las Vegas tournament. I won the Player of the Year/championship. What was my win%? 60.5%. On the app I play on I have 50 accounts with 5 crowns. Whats my win% over the last 10 accounts I've played on: 59%. It would be higher but the "go under" option hurts the expert's expectation. Euchre is a harder game when there's often no significant cards buried. When opponents go under before your calls their range will be stronger than it should be and thus you'll get euchred more often and get sweeps less often.

Either way this percentage approximates what I'm claiming. 60% is an achievable goal in a standard amateur game, and if you're playing every day on an app, 95%+ of the time you'll be in such a game. And in theory your team should always have a significant edge in these games by virtue of the fact that your team has YOU in it while the other team doesn't.

If this is not true then you need to work on your game. What sample size would I need to be convinced you're not playing as well as you should? My guess would be around a 1,000 games. If you play 1,000 random games and your Win% is indeed at 50% I would say you have work to do.

XaviRonaldo
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Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:11 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:35 am
XaviRonaldo wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 5:05 am
My recent record has proved I'm an amateur at this game. Can barely hold 50% in single player on Euchre 3D. So I'd like to confirm I'm not crazy here.
I wouldn't feel safe drawing a conclusion about your game without knowing the sample size we're dealing with here. That said I can tell you what % you should be winning in an expert game and an amateur game.

Your win% in an expert game is obvious: 50%, that's all you can hope for. What your win% should be in an amateur game is not so obvious, but I have a HUGE sample size guiding my opinion on this.

I've played around 40K games in the last 5 years (real life + app). I can say with confidence that you should be winning around 60% of your games when you're usually the only strong player in that game.

During 2021, I tracked my stats the entire year in my Las Vegas tournament. I won the Player of the Year/championship. What was my win%? 60.5%. On the app I play on I have 50 accounts with 5 crowns. Whats my win% over the last 10 accounts I've played on: 59%. It would be higher but the "go under" option hurts the expert's expectation. Euchre is a harder game when there's often no significant cards buried. When opponents go under before your calls their range will be stronger than it should be and thus you'll get euchred more often and get sweeps less often.

Either way this percentage approximates what I'm claiming. 60% is an achievable goal in a standard amateur game, and if you're playing every day on an app, 95%+ of the time you'll be in such a game. And in theory your team should always have a significant edge in these games by virtue of the fact that your team has YOU in it while the other team doesn't.

If this is not true then you need to work on your game. What sample size would I need to be convinced you're not playing as well as you should? My guess would be around a 1,000 games. If you play 1,000 random games and your Win% is indeed at 50% I would say you have work to do.
I've taken a massive break compared to how much I used to play. My stats haven't carried over from my old device but I did have extensive amount of games played and IIRC I used to sit at about 55-58% in single player but the bots get predictable after a while. I just don't really understand where my game has gone wrong. I was even on the leaderboard on Euchre 3D multiplayer at one point (top 40). Now I'm 400 points below my highest level and seem to be treading water for close to 2 years now.

I'd love to get onto world of cardgames and get some tips but it doesn't seem to be android phone friendly. I'd love to get some play with you guys so I can get some tips.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:10 pm

We play every Friday night OP. PM me for details

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