Ace of Trump Led

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jblowery
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Ace of Trump Led

Unread post by jblowery » Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:59 pm

This or something similar comes up quite a bit. I'm in seat 3 (round 2) and hold (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) so I order hearts. My p in seat 1 leads the (Card_A-H). Seat 2 plays (Card_9-H). What do you play?

The (Card_J-H) or low one (doesn't matter which one)?



irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:20 pm

NO NO NO would you play the JH. (for sure R1)

You under play the AH, why? To force the Left if the Dealer has it. And because now you get end play if the Dealer does have it.

MOST PLAYERS DO NOT KNOW THIS!

IRISHWOLF
Last edited by irishwolf on Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tbolt65
Posts: 820
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Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:35 pm

Yeah like Irishwolf says here. Play under to force out the left if not. Then play accordingly to what was shown and what you have in your hand.

Tbolt65
Edward

raydog
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Unread post by raydog » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:05 pm

At the point you (S3) make your decision there are only 2 trump left which you don't know the location of: JD and KH. So what you're basically doing is looking at all the possible scenarios of where those cards could be (S1, S2, S4 or buried) and deciding what would be your best play with a given scenario. You only know for sure that S1 doesn't have the JD (or they would have led it).

What you will find is that the 10H is the better play in more scenarios than the JH. Sure, if S4 only has the JD unguarded you are giving them a trick, but on balance it is better, probability-wise, to play low. Better chance of winning all 5 tricks, better chance of not getting euchred.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:28 pm

Clearly this is incorrect, Ray said, "...that you will find is that the 10H is the better play in more scenarios than the JH. Sure, if S4 only has the JD unguarded you are giving them a trick, but on balance it is better, probability-wise, to play low. NO WAY Better chance of winning all 5 tricks, better chance of not getting euchred."

Why is your logic incorrect?

1) If S3 plays the Right and the Dealer has the Left, IT IS GUARDED! S3 will NEVER get the Left if the dealer has it.

2) If S2 has the Left and of course it was guarded or he would have played it. Thus, playing the Right is wrong there too.

3) If S1 has an Ace, now is place to play it to Trick 2 as sometimes S3 will not be able to get back to his ace.

4) If the Dealer does not have the Left, it is buried or S2 has it and S3 is behind S2. S3 ordered the KH but did not say so only the Left is unknown. When S4 if he had the left now has to lead back into S3, a great position to be in. Had he used the Right he has no chance to capture the Left if S2 has it or if S4 has the Left. It's 50:50 (not including being buried) where that Left is. You lose either way by playing the Right.

5) And ot is your best way to get a sweep!

This is not even debatable.

IRISH

raydog
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Unread post by raydog » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:41 pm

Irish, H was called in R2 in this scenario. It looks like you are assuming a H was turned and S4 was made to pick it up. That changes the logic of a few of your statements.

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:21 pm

You are correct, but it all depends on playing the right! I But I did think it was R1. However, the post did not say what else 3rd seat had? If he did not have an ace off suit it makes a difference. For sure if S3 has an off suit ace or a doubleton, use the Right.

Two singleton off suit, I would take a chance with KH & Left unknown. With two singletons, you lead and opponent has the off suit ace & left, you are in trouble. You in that case are looking for a point not a sweep.

jblowery
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Unread post by jblowery » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:44 pm

Yes; I was thinking play low. This is R2 and I didn't think it really mattered what my other cards were (even though I agree that having an ace makes the rt bower a better play).

Thought was that there are only 7 trump. I have 3, my partner and S2 both played one so that means only 2 left (KH & JD). Key is where is the JD? Could be either of my opponents or buried but chances are best (especially since S2 played a low card) that dealer DOES NOT have it and that it is in one of those other two places.

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:35 pm

I would much rather that Left not be behind me. But if you have an off suit ace, using the Right then your ace is a better situation. If not, I would play low. Even with a King doubleton, I would trump high and promote my king. You still have two low trumps with a promoted King.

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:27 am

Worth noting: if S2 is an expert then I would say it's correct for S3 to play under in that spot no matter what his hand configuration. The idea is if an expert passes in that spot in the 2nd rd he will have a hand that has all suits blocked probably 90-95% of the time. So that's where the Left is extremely likely to be.

XaviRonaldo
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:41 am

Unread post by XaviRonaldo » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:29 pm

Slightly off topic but it's a no brainer to play low if it's R1 order. If the dealer has the left then they just save it for later if you play the right and if you play low you now know if the dealer has it. However I've seen way too many people play the right in this situation. Seems such a simple thing in R1 yet...

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