11-05-21 OE Friday - got euchred #3

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Dlan
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11-05-21 OE Friday - got euchred #3

Unread post by Dlan » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:15 pm

The maker was euchred. Was there a way to make a point os should they have passed?

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Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:35 pm

Since everyone can see who the players are. I said some stuff on the table about this hand. That I'll repeat here. With the jh up and having 2 trump with 3 clubs. Pass with competent players. If it gets back you can call clubs easy knowing your competent partner turned down a red jack. With weak players sure go ahead and order the jack up. As for the euchre. It shouldn't of happened.

The reason it did happen is I miscalculated what my partner was ordering with and my partner was playing like he would with randoms. I was trying to get my partner back in the lead with what I presume to their left bauer so their ace would be good. There was still unaccounted trump remaining and I wanted to go for 2pts and set up my partners ace by draining seat 3 last trump. In doing so I opened my team up to being euchred not realising seat 2 ordered up super light.


edit : Also say a score of 8 to 9 them or 9 to 9 or 9 to x. This order from seat 2 would be fine and my play would of been different for said situations.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:59 pm

Sorry, Tbolt, Didn't mean to post it like that.

I have fixed it

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:04 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:35 pm
The reason it did happen is I miscalculated what my partner was ordering with and my partner was playing like he would with randoms. I was trying to get my partner back in the lead with what I presume to their left bauer so their ace would be good. There was still unaccounted trump remaining and I wanted to go for 2pts and set up my partners ace by draining seat 3 last trump. In doing so I opened my team up to being euchred not realising seat 2 ordered up super light.
Edward
Your logic doesn't work. Your play is still a mistake. If we assume S2 is not making a light order then we put him on 3 trump. Since you also started with 3 trump, once S3 shows a trump on 2nd street your opponents should be out of trump. Thus there's no good reason to double lead trump on 3rd street as that lead will just cannibalize your team those times your P started with 3 trump. And as you indicated obviously we don't want to double lead trump those times S2 has a weaker range given we don't know where the Left is. So from your configuration you should never be double leading trump no matter what S2s range is. There is a time to double lead trump. This is not one of those times.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:12 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:04 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:35 pm
The reason it did happen is I miscalculated what my partner was ordering with and my partner was playing like he would with randoms. I was trying to get my partner back in the lead with what I presume to their left bauer so their ace would be good. There was still unaccounted trump remaining and I wanted to go for 2pts and set up my partners ace by draining seat 3 last trump. In doing so I opened my team up to being euchred not realising seat 2 ordered up super light.
Edward
Your logic doesn't work. Your play is still a mistake. If we assume S2 is not making a light order then we put him on 3 trump. Since you also started with 3 trump, once S3 shows a trump on 2nd street your opponents should be out of trump. Thus there's no good reason to double lead trump on 3rd street as that lead will just cannibalize your team those times your P started with 3 trump. And as you indicated obviously we don't want to double lead trump those times S2 has a weaker range given we don't know where the Left is. So from your configuration you should never be double leading trump no matter what S2s range is. There is a time to double lead trump. This is not one of those times.

The whole point is to get him to the lead with an ace, Which I did not have or other wise I would have lead the Ace. I was worried that leading a club would hit his ace and thus a trump would be able to stop us from 3rd seat. That's why I lead trump back so that if indeed we both had clubs and he had the ace of it we then take remaining tricks.


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Edward

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:47 pm

....I did it again and apologize. I actually took a loner call away from Edward. Whether he calls it we'll never know. (Go ahead and yuck it up Irish....) anyways, I've seen it done but I'm never a fan of double leading trumps on dealer team calls unless I'm the caller and I have a sure ace winner on last trick.

I will no longer call those (right upcard) hands unless score is what was mentioned above by Edward.

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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:56 pm

No yucking here, Bud! Only you can change hard wired patterns of play. Enough said. And to that and this hand in particular, no one plays Perfect euchre.

However, I have to agree with Wes. There was no need double lead trump. . . WHY you might say. You have to take the chance that you are causing havoc and apt to pull trump from your partner, and hurts a potential sweep than it helps. You already pulled trump once. If you want two points, you have to take that chance when you do not have boss cards in your off suit and need to SEE-SAW back and forth.But your partner assisted here,so lead an off suit.
Double lead for sure if you have boss off suit but not the case here.

"I've seen it done but I'm never a fan of double leading trumps on dealer team calls unless I'm the caller and I have a sure ace winner on last trick."

IRISH

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:42 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:12 pm
The whole point is to get him to the lead with an ace, Which I did not have or other wise I would have lead the Ace. I was worried that leading a club would hit his ace and thus a trump would be able to stop us from 3rd seat. That's why I lead trump back so that if indeed we both had clubs and he had the ace of it we then take remaining tricks.
Tbolt65
Edward
Again, your logic doesn't work. If you put your P on 3 trump--a reasonable assumption given that he ordered the Right--that means your opponents are out of trump the instant S3 shows the TH on 2nd street. IOW when you put your P on this range there is no reason to worry that leading a club will hit your P's ace and allow the enemy to trump in. They can't have a trump in this scenario.

BTW this is not up for debate. This isn't a "agree to disagree" spot. It is a logical truth that double leading trump on 3rd street from this configuration can only hurt your team no matter what range we put your P on. I can demonstrate this. Since we already know that leading trump is suicidal if we put your P on a weak range, I only need to address the scenario when your P started with 3 trump. Ok here we go.

The starting point of this analysis is on 3rd street before you decide to double lead trump with the AH. At that point your P has 3 cards left and if he started with 3 trump we know that 2 out of his 3 cards are the:

(Card_K-H) (Card_J-D)

So your P only has 1 unknown card and it has to be one of these 10 remaining unexposed cards:

(Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C)

Notice if your P has an Ace or an effective Ace--I.E. a offsuit King with the Ace in the kitty--your team will get 2 points no matter what line you take, and if your P has the KC--an unlucky 10% probability--your team will get 1 point no matter what line you take unless the kitty saves you. But EVERY TIME your P has ANY of the 7 other cards double leading trump will sabotage your team from getting 2 pts except for the lucky scenario where your P has the KD or KS and the corresponding Ace is in the kitty or the super duper lucky scenario where you P has an effective boss Queen with the corresponding A-K in the kitty. And guess what happens when you don't lead trump and instead lead offsuit. Then EVERY TIME your P has ANY of the 7 other cards your team will ALWAYS get 2 points assuming your P is smart enough to know he shouldn't lead trump on 4th street in this spot without boss-boss, I.E. smart enough to know he needs to "SEE-SAW back and forth". Thus double leading trump on 3rd street from this configuration can only hurt your team. QED

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:11 am

LeftyK wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:47 pm
....I did it again and apologize. I actually took a loner call away from Edward. Whether he calls it we'll never know. (Go ahead and yuck it up Irish....) anyways, I've seen it done but I'm never a fan of double leading trumps on dealer team calls unless I'm the caller and I have a sure ace winner on last trick.

I will no longer call those (right upcard) hands unless score is what was mentioned above by Edward.
IIRC based on Eric Zalas' work, you are better off calling with Edward's hand. It's just not worth going alone in that spot with an outside suited Queen unless you have JJX. Of course I would certainly go alone with Edward's hand if desperate assuming I'm in a game where S1 is not a strong player who knows how/when to donate.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:13 pm

My logic works when my partner has left -x with an Ace. I expect those type of calls with my holdings. I do not expect King-9h. Sucking out trump and getting my partner in the lead with those hands when I don't have an off ace is the best chance for 2pts when seat three has two trump. Thats what I played for and if one is wrong in the assessment as I was. You are going to get euchred.


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Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:15 pm

My logic works when my partner has left -x with an Ace. I expect those type of calls with my holdings. I do not expect King-9h. Sucking out trump and getting my partner in the lead with those hands when I don't have an off ace is the best chance for 2pts when seat three has two trump. Thats what I played for and if one is wrong in the assessment as I was. You are going to get euchred.


Tbolt65
Edward
No dude. Your logic fails horribly and I have demonstrated why it fails horribly. Re-read my previous post. This is not up for debate. We're talking about simple hand reading here that leads to an irrefutable conclusion. I am trying to help you out here cuz this appears to be a major leak in your game you need to clean up.

Those times your P has L+X+A are strategically irrelevant cuz your team gets 2 pts no matter what line you take. But EVERYTIME your P does not have a boss offsuit your double trump lead sabotages your team, preventing it from getting 2 pts.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:42 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:15 pm
My logic works when my partner has left -x with an Ace. I expect those type of calls with my holdings. I do not expect King-9h. Sucking out trump and getting my partner in the lead with those hands when I don't have an off ace is the best chance for 2pts when seat three has two trump. Thats what I played for and if one is wrong in the assessment as I was. You are going to get euchred.


Tbolt65
Edward
No dude. Your logic fails horribly and I have demonstrated why it fails horribly. Re-read my previous post. This is not up for debate. We're talking about simple hand reading here that leads to an irrefutable conclusion. I am trying to help you out here cuz this appears to be a major leak in your game you need to clean up.

Those times your P has L+X+A are strategically irrelevant cuz your team gets 2 pts no matter what line you take. But EVERYTIME your P does not have a boss offsuit your double trump lead sabotages your team, preventing it from getting 2 pts.
No it doesn't Wes. Why do you think when I'm counting trump that I take that line in certain situations. Its because when seat 3 has a potential 2 trump holding. So If you don't pull it. You miss out on 2pts possibly. Sure you still get 1pt. Sometimes it doesn't work out when one misreads their partner and gets euchred like I did.

Look I know very well how to play back and forth. The key here is to recognize trump and where it could be. Its either buried or seat 3. This hand is a highly situational hand. Again what happens here is due to a lack of understanding of the range of my partner. If I sized it up properly there is no discussion.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:50 pm

No it doesn't Wes. Why do you think when I'm counting trump that I take that line in certain situations. Its because when seat 3 has a potential 2 trump holding. So If you don't pull it. You miss out on 2pts possibly. Sure you still get 1pt. Sometimes it doesn't work out when one misreads their partner and gets euchred like I did.

Look I know very well how to play back and forth. The key here is to recognize trump and where it could be. Its either buried or seat 3. This hand is a highly situational hand. Again what happens here is due to a lack of understanding of the range of my partner. If I sized it up properly there is no discussion.

Tbolt65
Edward
The problem IS you are NOT counting trump. Dude, there are 7 trump cards. You have 3 in your hand. If you put your P on a 3 trump holding that's 6 trump accounted for. So when S3 plays trump on trick 2 the enemy is now out of trump. And this is precisely why double leading trump on 3rd street is so bad. Those times your P started with 3 trump that lead only hurts your team, those times your P started with 2 trump your lead is suicidal cuz we can't be sure where the Left is. IOW your 3rd street lead is wrong no matter what your Ps range is. Again this is not up for debate. It's a logical fact.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:32 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:50 pm
No it doesn't Wes. Why do you think when I'm counting trump that I take that line in certain situations. Its because when seat 3 has a potential 2 trump holding. So If you don't pull it. You miss out on 2pts possibly. Sure you still get 1pt. Sometimes it doesn't work out when one misreads their partner and gets euchred like I did.

Look I know very well how to play back and forth. The key here is to recognize trump and where it could be. Its either buried or seat 3. This hand is a highly situational hand. Again what happens here is due to a lack of understanding of the range of my partner. If I sized it up properly there is no discussion.

Tbolt65
Edward
The problem IS you are NOT counting trump. Dude, there are 7 trump cards. You have 3 in your hand. If you put your P on a 3 trump holding that's 6 trump accounted for. So when S3 plays trump on trick 2 the enemy is now out of trump. And this is precisely why double leading trump on 3rd street is so bad. Those times your P started with 3 trump that lead only hurts your team, those times your P started with 2 trump your lead is suicidal cuz we can't be sure where the Left is. IOW your 3rd street lead is wrong no matter what your Ps range is. Again this is not up for debate. It's a logical fact.
When did I ever assume he had three at all????? I said k-9h was weak, I don't consider left-9 and off ace weak. With a jack hearts up I consider it a marginal hand With a competent dealer as a partner. Now with how things where played out and the void of trump from seat 1. The only thing I assumed was that the maker at minimum had trump and left, with an off ace. From there I made a decision to relead trump because since I had no aces. I wanted to clear the rest of the "possible" trump out from seat 3 and let the maker get back in the lead to get him to play the ace suit I was confident he was holding.

As I said before I was wrong in my assumption with what my partner had in trump. However, as you can clearly see I was correct in that my partner did have an Ace and seat 3 did have a trump. Which unfortunately was the left.

So now in the future with this person(the maker) I will be mindful of that possibility and play accordingly.

I don't understand why this concept and thought process is so alluding? I did make 1 mistake and that read on my partner caused me to put my team in a euchre. Otherwise we get two points. If I've read correctly on my partners tendencies then of course I don't bleed trump.


Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:18 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:32 am
When did I ever assume he had three at all????? I said k-9h was weak, I don't consider left-9 and off ace weak. With a jack hearts up I consider it a marginal hand With a competent dealer as a partner. Now with how things where played out and the void of trump from seat 1. The only thing I assumed was that the maker at minimum had trump and left, with an off ace. From there I made a decision to relead trump because since I had no aces. I wanted to clear the rest of the "possible" trump out from seat 3 and let the maker get back in the lead to get him to play the ace suit I was confident he was holding.

As I said before I was wrong in my assumption with what my partner had in trump. However, as you can clearly see I was correct in that my partner did have an Ace and seat 3 did have a trump. Which unfortunately was the left.

So now in the future with this person(the maker) I will be mindful of that possibility and play accordingly.

I don't understand why this concept and thought process is so alluding? I did make 1 mistake and that read on my partner caused me to put my team in a euchre. Otherwise we get two points. If I've read correctly on my partners tendencies then of course I don't bleed trump.


Tbolt65
Edward
You're still approaching this spot wrong. Your 3rd street lead strategy should be about what's best for your P's overall range. We know if your P started with 3 trump your trump lead is terrible. And we know if your P started with 2 trump without the Left your trump lead is terrible. Yes if your P started out with 2 trump--precisely L+X--your trump lead is good. But that's not how good euchre is played. You don't target one hand type in your Ps range that a trump lead is good for and then decide to do that. You have to target your Ps overall range. And I think it's pretty clear now that leading offsuit is what's best for your Ps overall range.

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