6-11 Hand #10

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Tbolt65
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6-11 Hand #10

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:07 pm

Another hand at a bad score to order up as dealer with two trump(no bauers) and get's euchred.

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https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D



jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm

I was the maker here, in hindsight this pick up may have been a bit desperate. However I don't agree with my partner (Tbolt65) slamming the left on a green 10d, but even if they use the 9c and lead the left it's still a euchre, the only winning play would be to play off here with the Ks and keep your protected left intact, plus your partner can always have the Ad and win the trick. I'm not saying that's the right play, but it's the one I would make if I'm playing with a partner who doesn't only call Right+2 trump, and may be making marginal calls. I also find it curious that west opts to hold on to their solo Ah and instead tries to hit his p's void, but I would have led the spade if that was my objective. Granted, that's unnecessary speculation, I would always lead the solo Ah here.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am

jspectre wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm
I was the maker here, in hindsight this pick up may have been a bit desperate.
I like the call. Given that you block no 2nd rd suits and only have 1 small card in Next, I think this call will be slightly better than passing. Calling is a losing play but I think passing will be slightly bigger loser. That said, I still have to test this exact configuration to know for sure if it is a call. Either way, one of the drawbacks to these thin calls is you do need your partner to play the hand well and IMO S2 played this hand badly.
jspectre wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm
However I don't agree with my partner (Tbolt65) slamming the left on a green 10d, but even if they use the 9c and lead the left it's still a euchre,
Burning the Left on a green lead is the wrong play. If S2 is gonna trump in, gotta trump low-send high in that spot with L+1. S2 needs to think about S4's range in this spot. S4 just called so his hand aint gonna be that great. S4 is gonna have a lot of R+1 type hands in his range. When S2 trumps low and sends the Left, his team gets a point every time his P has R+1 which is huge, but when S2 trumps in with the Left and sends low his team is now not guaranteed a point when S4 has R+1. These little things matter. But all that said, IMO S2 should not be trumping in AT ALL.
jspectre wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm
the only winning play would be to play off here with the Ks and keep your protected left intact, plus your partner can always have the Ad and win the trick. I'm not saying that's the right play, but it's the one I would make if I'm playing with a partner who doesn't only call Right+2 trump, and may be making marginal calls.
With L+1, I.E. a guaranteed trick and the opportunity to create a void on trick 1, S2 should NOT be trumping in IMO. The best play IS to get rid of the KS. Unfortunately I can't prove that, but that's what I believe, especially when you have an aggressive P. So overall I don't like the way S2 played the hand at all. IMO he was not being a good partner in this hand. He was thinking about his own holding and not what was best for his team. And in euchre it's never really about your hand, it's about the team the team the team.
jspectre wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:40 pm
I also find it curious that west opts to hold on to their solo Ah and instead tries to hit his p's void, but I would have led the spade if that was my objective. Granted, that's unnecessary speculation, I would always lead the solo Ah here.
I always lead the Ace in that spot also. IMO that's just a bad lead by S1. If you play in our game more often, you'll see a lot of bad leads from that spot.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:30 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am
I like the call. Given that you block no 2nd rd suits and only have 1 small card in Next, I think this call will be slightly better than passing. Calling is a losing play but I think passing will be slightly bigger loser. That said, I still have to test this exact configuration to know for sure if it is a call. Either way, one of the drawbacks to these thin calls is you do need your partner to play the hand well and IMO S2 played this hand badly.
I figured you would agree, I like trying to squeeze out these calls, because passing just feels worse, but I'm not sure at all that this is the correct play, so I look forward to your analysis on this one.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am
Burning the Left on a green lead is the wrong play. If S2 is gonna trump in, gotta trump low-send high in that spot with L+1. S2 needs to think about S4's range in this spot. S4 just called so his hand aint gonna be that great. S4 is gonna have a lot of R+1 type hands in his range. When S2 trumps low and sends the Left, his team gets a point every time his P has R+1 which is huge, but when S2 trumps in with the Left and sends low his team is now not guaranteed a point when S4 has R+1. These little things matter. But all that said, IMO S2 should not be trumping in AT ALL.
Yeah, the way my partner played the first trick didn't make any sense to me, it seemed like a complete overreaction to a low green lead. Even on an ace in next lead, where I have no other voids, and have no off suit aces, I'm still trumping low, and trying to get the left lead to my partner, because anything else just feels like playing too timid.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am
With L+1, I.E. a guaranteed trick and the opportunity to create a void on trick 1, S2 should NOT be trumping in IMO. The best play IS to get rid of the KS. Unfortunately I can't prove that, but that's what I believe, especially when you have an aggressive P. So overall I don't like the way S2 played the hand at all. IMO he was not being a good partner in this hand. He was thinking about his own holding and not what was best for his team. And in euchre it's never really about your hand, it's about the team the team the team.
I'm glad we're on the same page here, playing off feels like the absolute best play to me in this situation, but I don't have the same amount of experience when it comes to playing euchre at a very high level. However, there's very few downsides to playing off, your left remains protected, you created a void in spades, and with a 10d lead there's no chance 1st seat is trying to sneak one past you.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am
I always lead the Ace in that spot also. IMO that's just a bad lead by S1. If you play in our game more often, you'll see a lot of bad leads from that spot.
Yeah, that's just the perfect lead there when you're holding JK in trump, you either catch the dealer or force him to use trump, you would absolutely hate to see 2nd seat win the trick in diamonds, and the maker throws off his only heart. Ironically, if they had correctly led the ace of hearts here, we would have made a point! I guess that's euchre for you.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pm

I made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:09 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pm
I made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.


Tbolt65
Edward
Yea I strongly disagree. The default play should never be to trump high send low with L+1 on a garbage green lead. That's just bad play imo.

And with no information I know you agree that if S2 has the Right he should play off in that spot. With L+1 and a chance to create a void why not play off also.

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:16 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pm
I made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.


Tbolt65
Edward
At the very least, I think we should be able to agree that trumping with the left, and then leading a low trump back, on a green 10d lead, is simply not correct. I wouldn't fault you for trumping low and leading the left, even if it led to our euchre, because that's still a fairly reasonable play, even if throwing off in spades may have been the best play. It also doesn't help that 1st seat didn't lead their best card, and that would have ironically scored us a point.
Last edited by jspectre on Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:20 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:09 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:49 pm
I made this play based on limited information. It's still the right play based on said limited information until a hand like this proves your limited observations wrong and then you have to adjust accordingly to your partners play calling range.


Tbolt65
Edward
Yea I strongly disagree. The default play should never be to trump high send low with L+1 on a garbage green lead. That's just bad play imo.

You have a really bad habit of seeing only what you want to see. Then justifying that based on what you believe to be the correct line of play. I never said it was a default play. I said it was a play based on limited information/range of the player I thought that was possible in his hand. I made this particular play based on an assertion that they Have Right-x, or three trump -x-x-x with having one or more Aces. Since I had no aces to lead and with this assessment at this time. Showing the left and sending low, assures 1 trick in, Possibly sets up for the march and at worst ensures my partners ace or aces are good. I would never, ever make this play with a possible hand configuration that the dealer/maker may have. I just don't do it. You can ask IrishWolf. Irish do I send left and lead my only trump to you with out me having more trump or off aces???? Spoiler alert: That will be a no. He can tell you this as well.

So as one learns and see what their partners are capable of or incapable of one can now make the needed adjustments in play to best assist and maximize points gaining situations.


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:34 pm

Dude, trumping high and sending low with L+1 on a garbage green lead is the wrong play period. Saying you had limited information doesn't change anything. This isn't hard. Think about your P's range. If he has R+1, trumping low and sending high is the clear best play as it guarantees a point as long as S2 doesn't get overtrumped on the first lead--something S2 shouldn't worry about on a garbage green lead. If the maker has 3 trump it hardly matters what you do. Therefore the optimal line--when one wants to trump in--is the line that works best those times the maker has R+1, ie trump low-lead left.

Like I said before. S2 played the hand poorly. He's not thinking about what's best for his team. He's just playing his hand. A cardinal sin in euchre. And although I can't prove it I would bet that what's really best for S2's team is to not trump in on that garbage lead at all. S2 should keep his sure trick/guarded left intact and void himself in spades. If we're correctly playing off with the Right in that spot, it's not much of an extrapolation to hypothesize that S2 should play off when he has L+1 when he can create a void.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 pm

You just don't listen. I put my partner on Right - x or Any three trump. both scenario's with at least one off Ace. Since I had none. Trumping High sending low is a logical play from there. End of story. It only changes when Seat 2(me) finds out that dealer has the ordering capability of having two trump, no bauers. Now the line of play changes and there are several different ways to handle it. I went with that play to ensure I got one trick in and that I was not over trumped with sending my 9. I only take that chance if I have an ace to come back with after leading the left. This play is made once again to empty out trump on the opponents side. To help promote my partners aces and doubletons for that matter. To also put my partner in a better spot of having us March as a team. Now based on that information that I went with ( and was wrong) This play would hurt the two trump scenario with no bauers. You move on and you play accordingly with better information from what your partner is capable of. Period.!!!


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:27 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 pm
You just don't listen. I put my partner on Right - x or Any three trump. both scenario's with at least one off Ace. Since I had none. Trumping High sending low is a logical play from there. End of story. It only changes when Seat 2(me) finds out that dealer has the ordering capability of having two trump, no bauers. Now the line of play changes and there are several different ways to handle it. I went with that play to ensure I got one trick in and that I was not over trumped with sending my 9. I only take that chance if I have an ace to come back with after leading the left. This play is made once again to empty out trump on the opponents side. To help promote my partners aces and doubletons for that matter. To also put my partner in a better spot of having us March as a team. Now based on that information that I went with ( and was wrong) This play would hurt the two trump scenario with no bauers. You move on and you play accordingly with better information from what your partner is capable of. Period.!!!


Tbolt65
Edward
Sorry dude, I'm not letting you off the hook on this one becuz it's too easy to explain logically why you are wrong.

Ok lets start with those times the Maker has R+1. In that case, trumping low and sending the Left is the clear best play as that guarantees your team a point. I.E. trumping low and sending the Left strictly dominates the "trump high with the Left-send low" strategy.

What about when the maker has 3 trump? Well if he has Axx in trump or R+2, it don't really matter much which line S2 takes, but any time the maker has Kxx or Qxx, S2 is again better off trumping low and sending the Left as that gives his team the best chance at a march those times the Right is in the kitty. When the Right is in enemy hands it doesn't really matter much which line S2 takes. So overall, when the maker has 3 trump, it either doesn't matter much what S2 does or S2 is better off trumping low and sending the Left. Thus we can conclude that when the maker has 3 trump, trumping low and sending the left strictly dominates trumping high with the left and sending low.

What about when the maker calls super weak like in this hand?

Well if the maker had Ax in trump he'd prefer you to trump low and send the Left as that would at least guarantee the maker will get 1 trick in trump. If the maker had Kx or Qx or Tx in trump, he would prefer you to trump low and send the Left as that line gives your team the best chance at making a point or 2 points those times the Right is in the kitty. When the Right is in enemy hands it doesn't really matter much which line S2 takes. So again, when the maker has just two low trump, trumping low and sending the Left strictly dominates trumping high and sending low.

So whether the dealer has R+1, 3 trump, or 2 low trump, trumping low and sending the Left is the clear best play.

Just letting you know, you made me late for poker today explaining to you basic concepts you should've learned years ago so I'm very annoyed right now. Trumping high and sending low with L+1 is simply poor level zero euchre play. There's no way around it. And the key to figuring that out is just thinking about what is best for your partner's range.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:36 pm

The proper play to the Diamond lead is 2nd hand low, create the void. Do not trump this trick.
But Trumping high and lead low? You have to make a BIG assumption that the the dealer has the right bower or three trump or aces??? Maybe, maybe NOT.

IRISHWOLF

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:26 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:36 pm
The proper play to the Diamond lead is 2nd hand low, create the void. Do not trump this trick.
But Trumping high and lead low? You have to make a BIG assumption that the the dealer has the right bower or three trump or aces??? Maybe, maybe NOT.

IRISHWOLF

Euchre is all about assumptions until proven otherwise. I made an assumption about my partner. Which was wrong so now that information was gathered other possibilities from your partner now open up and you play accordingly. I don't understand how hard this is for people to comprehend. I took a line. It was wrong. I made an incorrection assumption. So now I adjust my game to compliment my partner. I'm not just barking at you Wolf just a statement as a whole to those who have a hard time understanding the thought process.

Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:42 pm

So I almost agree with all you are saying here. And you don't have to figure out your partner's range, "Just letting you know, you made me late for poker today explaining to you basic concepts you should've learned years ago so I'm very annoyed right now. Trumping high and sending low with L+1 is simply poor level zero euchre play. There's no way around it. And the key to figuring that out is just thinking about what is best for your partner's range."

And if you have not clue, you create a void BECAUSE, the dealer has greater than a 60% chance of winning the trick with the ace or by trumping. You now have a stronger hand for a sweep as well. Here in this example you STEAL, the Captaincy position as master of the partnership who knows best for his range as the MAKER. And you bascingly have removed yourself from assisting later.

My motto is don't lead me trump unless you have the Right, or two aces. trumps.

IRISHWOLF

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:33 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:26 pm
Euchre is all about assumptions until proven otherwise. I made an assumption about my partner. Which was wrong so now that information was gathered other possibilities from your partner now open up and you play accordingly. I don't understand how hard this is for people to comprehend. I took a line. It was wrong. I made an incorrection assumption. So now I adjust my game to compliment my partner. I'm not just barking at you Wolf just a statement as a whole to those who have a hard time understanding the thought process.

Tbolt65
Edward
You need to trash those assumptions asap bro becuz there is no player profile where trumping high and sending low with L+1 on a garbage green lead is the correct play.

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