Another interesting hand

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Dlan
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Another interesting hand

Unread post by Dlan » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:30 am

Take a look. How would you have played this?

(BTW, not from an OE game)

Image

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D



irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:37 am

Big question is why East would put the Left on the JH lead? That was ignorant REASON being you know the dealer probably has the KH and is now behind you (just what happened) :lol: !

But it also poses a question, thinking ahead, why S3 would not trump his partner's AD, and go after that KH instead of sloughing the AS! How many mistakes can you make on one Hand?

And if I am the Dealer, after taking the first trick, I just might lead the low diamond to trick 2 instead of the JH. :o There is a time for Fishing!

IRISHWOLF

justme
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Unread post by justme » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:13 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:37 am
Big question is why East would put the Left on the JH lead? That was ignorant REASON being you know the dealer probably has the KH and is now behind you (just what happened) :lol: !

But it also poses a question, thinking ahead, why S3 would not trump his partner's AD, and go after that KH instead of sloughing the AS! How many mistakes can you make on one Hand?

And if I am the Dealer, after taking the first trick, I just might lead the low diamond to trick 2 instead of the JH. :o There is a time for Fishing!

IRISHWOLF
I agree, surely there is no justification to play the left on dealers right bower on the second trick.

I disagree with your suggestion that s3 should have trumped his partners ace. There is nothing at this point to suggest the dealer has the king of trump. He could very well have JT9h

One more point, Down 5-1, it time to shit or get off the pot. I would have ordered up the dealer.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:00 pm

justme wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:13 pm
I disagree with your suggestion that s3 should have trumped his partners ace. There is nothing at this point to suggest the dealer has the king of trump. He could very well have JT9h
S3 not trumping his P's ace on trick 3 was a critical mistake. Count the trump. 4 trump have been played by trick 3 and S3 has 2 left. This means the maker either has 1 trump left (KH) or none. All S3 has to do is trump his partner's ace and send the boss trump and he gets the euchre 100% of the time. Instead he allows the maker to keep the KH behind him and squeak out a point.
justme wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:13 pm
One more point, Down 5-1, it time to shit or get off the pot. I would have ordered up the dealer.
It's actually just the opposite. Your team is down 5-1 and you have the perfect opportunity to bag the dealer and go for 2 with the JH up. The dealer will have at least 1 more trump almost 65% of the time. And if the dealer passes, your P can still always be sitting on a loner or a 2 pt call in the 2nd rd. The only time S3 should be ordering this hand up is at a close out score, I.E 9-9 or 9-X where X = 7 or below. At all other scores bag the dealer instead of calling and fighting for 1 point. The dealer will pick up too often to do otherwise, and even those times the dealer passes, your P can still have a hand in the 2nd round.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:11 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:00 pm
The dealer will have at least 1 more trump almost 65% of the time.
I suppose I should show the math.

[(3C1 x 15C4) + (3C2 x 15C3) + (3C3 x 15C2)]/18C5 =

[4095 + 1365 + 105]/8568 = 64.95%

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:22 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:37 am
Big question is why East would put the Left on the JH lead? That was ignorant REASON being you know the dealer probably has the KH and is now behind you (just what happened) :lol: !
justme wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:13 pm
I agree, surely there is no justification to play the left on dealers right bower on the second trick.
To be a nit, S3 putting the Left on the JH lead is actually technically not a mistake from his configuration becuz once the maker incorrectly leads the JH, S3 should get the euchre 100% of the time in this spot no matter what trump he plays on trick 2.........except he didn't lol.

That's why this was the big mistake in the hand:
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:37 am
But it also poses a question, thinking ahead, why S3 would not trump his partner's AD, and go after that KH instead of sloughing the AS! How many mistakes can you make on one Hand?

justme
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Unread post by justme » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:46 pm

My apology. I confused the two tricks containing the aces (Ac, Ad) in S1 hands. No doubt, S3 would have been in control for the point had he trumped that ace.


Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:00 pm
justme wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:13 pm
I disagree with your suggestion that s3 should have trumped his partners ace. There is nothing at this point to suggest the dealer has the king of trump. He could very well have JT9h
S3 not trumping his P's ace on trick 3 was a critical mistake. Count the trump. 4 trump have been played by trick 3 and S3 has 2 left. This means the maker either has 1 trump left (KH) or none. All S3 has to do is trump his partner's ace and send the boss trump and he gets the euchre 100% of the time. Instead he allows the maker to keep the KH behind him and squeak out a point.

RedDuke
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Unread post by RedDuke » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:02 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:37 am
Big question is why East would put the Left on the JH lead? That was ignorant REASON being you know the dealer probably has the KH and is now behind you (just what happened) :lol: !

But it also poses a question, thinking ahead, why S3 would not trump his partner's AD, and go after that KH instead of sloughing the AS! How many mistakes can you make on one Hand?

And if I am the Dealer, after taking the first trick, I just might lead the low diamond to trick 2 instead of the JH. :o There is a time for Fishing!

IRISHWOLF
That was horrible play by East. You know for a fact that you've got 2 of the top three trump and you've got the side ace and a void.

I can see a couple mistakes by East. Throwing the left against the right lead was a huge mistake. As you correctly point out, it's a certainty that the dealer has the king. Throwing the queen would guarantee that East has the top two trump and that side Ace (since you can beat the king and the you know that the holder of the king already played). As East, the only thing in the deck that you can't beat is the right.

Throwing the ace off against the AD was another mistake. Better to trump your partner's ace in that situation. If he'd have been smart enough to throw off the QH earlier, that's a guaranteed euchre. The way to play this hand would have been to allow the dealer's right to take the trick by throwing off the queen, then you take control by trumping your partner's ace, lead trump on trick 4, and then lead the ace on trick 5. That's a euchre unless the dealer has 4 trump, which you know for sure is not the case here.

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:38 pm

Test

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:39 pm

Deleted, computer issues.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:05 am

To this silly comment, "To be a nit, S3 putting the Left on the JH lead is actually technically not a mistake from his configuration becuz . . ."

S3 can only be cute or doing some sort of "trickery" playing the Left for what reason? You had it all just play the queen. Technically not a mistake, get real! Might go down in history as the dumbest play in euchre.

IRISHWOLF

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:17 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:05 am
To this silly comment, "To be a nit, S3 putting the Left on the JH lead is actually technically not a mistake from his configuration becuz . . ."

S3 can only be cute or doing some sort of "trickery" playing the Left for what reason? You had it all just play the queen. Technically not a mistake, get real! Might go down in history as the dumbest play in euchre.

IRISHWOLF
It is technically not a mistake becuz S3 should get the euchre no matter what trump he plays on trick 2. And I'm not saying this from some results oriented angle. Based on S3's actual hand, once the maker incorrectly leads the Right on trick 2, S3 should get the euchre 100% of the time no matter what trump he plays. That's what's funny about the hand to me. Now if we knew that S3 was gonna screw up the automatic euchre on Trick 3 (all he has to do is count trump to know to trump his P's ace and clean out the maker), then yeah he should not play the Left on trick 2. My only nit point is, if you take two expert players and one burns the Left on trick 2 and the other burns the Qh on trick 2 both with get the euchre 100% of the time, so technically burning the Left on trick 2 is not a mistake. But yeah for a mere mortal who doesn't hand read well it's obviously a different story as this hand clearly illustrates.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:20 pm

And another silly comment about playing the LEFT to the 2nd trick. The dealer now leading a club or spade, S4 is now behind S3 who has QD AD. So euchring the dealer is not 100% as it ALL DEPENDS, just because he played the LEFT.

IRISHWOLF

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:17 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:20 pm
And another silly comment about playing the LEFT to the 2nd trick. The dealer now leading a club or spade, S4 is now behind S3 who has QD AD. So euchring the dealer is not 100% as it ALL DEPENDS, just because he played the LEFT.

IRISHWOLF
Once the dealer incorrectly leads the JH on trick 2, S3 has the euchre 100% of the time no matter what trump he plays if he plays 3rd street correctly. No matter what trump S3 plays he will still end up with Boss-X in trump + an off ace and the dealer has the lead on 3rd street after he leads the Right. The dealer can never get behind S3 if S3 plays 3rd street correctly.

Again, what I am saying is a nit point, a banally true, uncontroversial point. If two different experts were in the 3rd seat and one expert played the Left on trick 2 and the other played the QH on trick 2, both players would still get the euchre 100% of the time. Playing the Left on 2nd street is not the BIG mistake everyone itt is making it out to be. In fact if me or Edward play the Left on 2nd street in this spot it's not a mistake AT ALL. The reason I think it's worth pointing this out is to get people focused on the real mistake in this hand, S3 not trumping his P's Ace on 3rd street when he has the obvious euchre.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:55 pm

Sometimes this play is made to make the dealer think well all the trump is gone and to re-lead trump stupidly. Not saying what happened here is good or bad but that's just the line of play. The biggest mistake is Seat 3 not accounting for or rather in simple terms. Not counting the trump. He would soon realize that the only trump the maker could have left is the King of hearts. This hand was a easy euchre but with Seat 3 getting cute and then not knowing how to proceed clearly misses an opportunity.

Tbolt65
Edward

jspectre
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Unread post by jspectre » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:24 pm

I have to also agree with Wes, there's no technical mistake here by throwing away the left. The dealer has already used two trump, and all other trump besides the K is accounted for. You play last, and you have a guaranteed trump lead with the boss A of hearts to rid the maker of his last trump, and then secure the euchre with the AS. Unfortunately, this feels like a bit of trolling gone wrong, because 3rd seat seems to have forgotten they can't get a euchre, even if they're up 2 trump to 1, if the dealer plays last.

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