Weekly sign-in for Friday games. Plz sign-in by 8:20 eastern

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irishwolf
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Weekly sign-in for Friday games. Plz sign-in by 8:20 eastern

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm

So let's start a Friday Euchre, so Ed can join. I am in, Wes, I am sure is. So we only need one more? I am ready for this Friday, April 2. We just have to agree on a time. I can do it anytime 7 pm to 10 pm EST. For a couple o hours, one is just not enough to get the flow.

WHO's GAME FOR SOME TOUGH EUCHRE?

Just respond to this Post.



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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:02 pm

Sure, I'm in

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:17 pm

Ugh, I can do 5pm Est..........f**k it I'll do 7pm and piss my gf off. It's a safe bet Ed will be in.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:34 pm

I don't know. My favorite tv program is on at that time. 🤔🤔🤔


































You know I'm in. 😎
Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:39 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:34 pm
I don't know. My favorite tv program is on at that time. 🤔🤔🤔


































You know I'm in. 😎
Tbolt65
Edward
Just DVR masked singer

Richardb02
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Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:51 pm

Sorry, I am out for Friday nights. Mrs Richardb02, my GF, has precedence. I think that I am a happily married member of OE. I may even be in church this Friday. It is Good Friday. In addition, a family member has flown 600 miles to stay with us this weekend. So, with all due respect, I will decline the invitation. Another player needs to seize this outstanding opportunity to enjoy some serious Euchre!

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:13 pm

This Friday works for me. that 7-10pm ET timeframe works for me also.... this is when Edward and I would tee it up in 3D land :) and I won't mind if we did play on a different app than WOCG.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:44 pm

Mike, can me and you rotate Fridays? I want Edward and Wolf to always play on Fridays cuz they usually don't play on Mondays. If so, I would prefer you play this Friday and I'll take next Friday and we rotate from there, and sometimes we'll play together if someone drops out.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:22 pm

So it looks like we have five so far. And we will stick with 7 EST, WOCG. Same set up as OE on Mondays.

Easy to accommodate five and open to some sort of rotating in, maybe a hour on and off? I am flexible!

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:40 pm

Ok 7pm est, 4pm pst Is ok with me too.

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Edward

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:53 am

If you don't see an open OE table, Set one. When the game in progress ends, you will be seated and ready for the next game. This way players will rotate in and out

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:28 am

wes that's fine. I'll play tomorrow. Still wish we'd use another app though

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:54 pm

LeftyK wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:28 am
wes that's fine. I'll play tomorrow. Still wish we'd use another app though
Sweet. Tomorrow was always gonna be tough for me. BTW if you don't like this idea of rotating, I'd be willing to rotate hours within a session. In that case ideally I'd always want the first hour so I can get to my gfs as early as possible and then you take the 2nd hour assuming this really is a 2hr game. I really don't care how it goes but no matter what you decide you're playing the full session tomorrow. But if you wanna split hours Next week I'm totally cool with that. Doesn't matter to me.

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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:07 am

Hopefully, we can do two hours. Remember if someone does come in, a fifth: (Don't run off.) I would like to stay on WOCG because of saving the hands I can review this opposing hands. Might take awhile but of interest as a side project. Don's 70 hands does not prove or disprove opposing hands. Need 20 to 30 games to see a pattern (I hope I am wrong).

If you don't see an open OE table, Set one. When the game in progress ends, you will be seated and ready for the next game. This way players will rotate in and out.

I am working on recruiting another player, maybe for Mondays.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:01 am

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:07 am
If you don't see an open OE table, Set one. When the game in progress ends, you will be seated and ready for the next game. This way players will rotate in and out.

I am working on recruiting another player, maybe for Mondays.
Ok we'll just do it that way if you guys want. But tomorrow I need Mike to fill in for me.

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LeftyK
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Unread post by LeftyK » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:36 pm

I'll be there.. 7pm ET correct? I might have one (from before that cannot make Mondays) play also.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:57 pm

I believe so 7pm est and 4pm pst

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:57 pm

A reminder:


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=271


I've started the table already, just like how it is in the original link, private table name is OhioEuchre.



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Edward

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:45 pm

Thanks all for playing tonight. Had fun. It's been a while since I got to play with you all. Look forward to more.

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Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:32 pm

Yes, it was fun! Thanks to all!

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:29 am

I'm early but I'm in. From what I recall I think Wes said he's playing too this week.

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Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:43 am

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:07 am

If you don't see an open OE table, Set one. When the game in progress ends, you will be seated and ready for the next game. This way players will rotate in and out.
I'm in tomorrow. Mike if you're in or there's some other 5th player, we'll just do the above.

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Unread post by Dlan » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:06 pm

I'm in for 7

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:10 pm

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLeeeettss GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost time for cards ladies and Gents.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:49 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:10 pm
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLeeeettss GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost time for cards ladies and Gents.

Tbolt65
Edward
Wish I could say I'm as fired up as you. I'm still exhausted from last night and my gf is pissed at me for being late today. First world problems I know.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:19 pm

Thanks everyone for Friday Night Euchre Had fun again.

Good Games

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Edward

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:21 pm

I know its only the second week but in tough games, where everyone is playing good. It's the little things that are really the difference makers.

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Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:50 pm

Hey guys, Mike and Don are not available for Friday. So we are one short. Wolf, any chance you can find a 4th. I'm trying to get my gf to play but she really doesn't want to.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:00 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:50 pm
Hey guys, Mike and Don are not available for Friday. So we are one short. Wolf, any chance you can find a 4th. I'm trying to get my gf to play but she really doesn't want to.
Sounds like to me you need a new girlfriend. :lol:


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Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:34 pm

wow, doubtful. I know a guy but he busy on Fridays. Bummer!

ike and Don are not available for Friday. So we are one short. Wolf, any chance you can find a 4th.

I mean how can you not attend the big show on earth? Oh well, just a game.

Where are those who comment, the WANNA-BEs? Bring your game, show me something!

IRISHWOLF
Last edited by irishwolf on Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:07 am

who's Mike? I saw Red duke post the other day maybe he's available or perhaps justme can play? Anyone else watching, care to play?

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Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:24 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:07 am
who's Mike? I saw Red duke post the other day maybe he's available or perhaps justme can play? Anyone else watching, care to play?

Tbolt65
Edward
Mike = LeftyK

Red Duke is probably our only hope. I assume Richard is out cuz he spends Fridays incorrectly worshiping his wife.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:46 pm

Ahh. Hopefully someone will respond or someone will have a change of plans.

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Edward

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:29 pm

justme,

Any chance you can play this Friday?

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Unread post by Richardb02 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:43 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:24 am
I assume Richard is out cuz he spends Fridays incorrectly worshiping his wife.
You are absolutely correct, Wes, as a general principle! However, the specifics of the hand, that I was dealt, have me entertaining our new in-laws, the parents of our newly married daughter, this Friday! Love is grand, even in Euchre terms! :lol: :lol: :lol:

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:50 pm

Maybe we need to invite Eric Zalas, Power Euchre player to Friday Night WOCG?

He can teach us how NOT to trust your partner for a trick or even two. Teach us what a biddable hand is? My observation, TRUST YOUR PARTNER FOR A TRICK, is in vogue, FRIDAY NIGHT EUCHRE. Maybe even trust your partner for two? But those old style players are all wrong, he says.

Where or where is Eric Zalas. Bring your a s s to this game!

~IRISHWOLF

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:57 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:50 pm
Maybe we need to invite Eric Zalas, Power Euchre player to Friday Night WOCG?

He can teach us how NOT to trust your partner for a trick or even two. Teach us what a biddable hand is? My observation, TRUST YOUR PARTNER FOR A TRICK, is in vogue, FRIDAY NIGHT EUCHRE. Maybe even trust your partner for two? But those old style players are all wrong, he says.

Where or where is Eric Zalas. Bring your a s s to this game!

~IRISHWOLF
Hes not coming. I highly doubt he even read one thing here. With the exception of replying to some one who posted about his books and they themselves arent here after that either. It's sole purpose was to get word out on his books. I did however bite on his one book that was supposed to be the culmination of the 4 others. I have no interest in reading the rest.

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Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:58 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:43 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:24 am
I assume Richard is out cuz he spends Fridays incorrectly worshiping his wife.
You are absolutely correct, Wes, as a general principle! However, the specifics of the hand, that I was dealt, have me entertaining our new in-laws, the parents of our newly married daughter, this Friday! Love is grand, even in Euchre terms! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ha! That sounds like a horrible night! I'm not much of a people person tho. Very happy for your daughter. Sounds like she has a good model to look to when it comes to building a strong and happy marriage.

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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm

Ed,

"I did however bite on his one book that was supposed to be the culmination of the 4 others. I have no interest in reading the rest."

About his Book V, what hand or hands did he post with the lowest +EV? And did he document any borderline EV hands? Or donating when at 9 to 6/7?

Did his book ever discuss a standard deviation or 95 CI concerning Euchre? Statistical nature of his hand rating system for ordering or assisting? And did he ever discuss why most of his hands were in the 200 range, some less? Finally, a defensive call as passing would be even more Negative results.

All those things are the real ESSENCE of euchre!

Just curious!

~IRISHWOLF

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:54 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm
Ed,

"I did however bite on his one book that was supposed to be the culmination of the 4 others. I have no interest in reading the rest."

About his Book V, what hand or hands did he post with the lowest +EV? And did he document any borderline EV hands? Or donating when at 9 to 6/7?

Did his book ever discuss a standard deviation or 95 CI concerning Euchre? Statistical nature of his hand rating system for ordering or assisting? And did he ever discuss why most of his hands were in the 200 range, some less? Finally, a defensive call as passing would be even more Negative results.

All those things are the real ESSENCE of euchre!

Just curious!

~IRISHWOLF

Honestly I don't remember. I'll have too look for you Irishwolf. It's been a while. What I do remember and what stood out to me. Is he plays too little hands. Undervalues a lot of playable hands. Like you mentioned and stated. He does not rely or count on partner for one. His hand samples are from 200ish up to 1000. He used bots to arrive at the percentages of playable hands and ehat works and doesn't. He has a narcissist and condescending mindset and attitude towards those who he did his research on and to the ideas he disagrees with. He got one thing right about certain loners you should be playing for 2. Which I agreed with.

Im at work his book is 500 pages if I remember correctly so. Ill try to find what you asked for. However the information you are seeking maybe in his other books. This one is more of a summary and may not have the breakdowns you want.

Tbolt65
Edward

Edit. Oh and a low calling rate of 17 % is ideal and best.

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:43 am

I read this in Nov of 2019. Irish, I would just buy the kindle version thats up for 9.99 I believe. It's worth a read if not for entertainment value alone. Too much to go through and I think you'd just get a fuller picture of what you are seeking if you checked it out. He gets some things right while totally dismissing things out of hand. Especially things he knows very little about and it is evident.


Here is the intro/description on the book taken from the amazon Page:


Power Euchre Volume V: Euchremetrics© Performance Outcomes for Two Hundred Twenty-Five different Euchre Hands is the first book of its kind to take the guess work out of playing the game. This meticulously researched book contains 285 referenced source citations and a remarkable 342 tables, charts and graphics packed with statistical data and technical information to help make you a dominating Power Player at euchre. By simply reviewing the euchre hands analyzed, the author provides the advanced player with a blueprint to elevate their game performance to a championship level.

The fifth and final volume in his Power Euchre series represents the magnum opus for author Eric Zalas. His painstakingly detailed investigation into the field of euchre science has led to the creation of a concept called Euchremetrics© which is the empirical analysis of euchre through statistics used to predict the performance of hand scenarios and players, giving teams a winning edge.

The author critically dissects the failures and shortcomings of what he describes as the “old-school, euchre conventional wisdom” which is pervasive among many experienced euchre players. The foundations of this conventional wisdom approach to playing euchre include always counting on your partner to take a trick, naming next, and believing that it is the highly aggressive player who will generally win over the long term. The book presents sixty-seven untenable trump naming recommendations, made by a variety of euchre experts following these old-school aphorisms, that have a combined mean win percentage of just 61.8% and a mean expected outcome of negative -0.046 points per play based on the analysis of 18,609 hand played.

The core of Power Euchre Volume V is Chapter Five through Chapter Twelve which walks the reader through a representative progression of different euchre hands, ranging from Powerful Hands through Defenseless Hands. A total of 57,784 hands were analyzed by the author representing an average of almost 257 hands analyzed per unique scenario. Each euchre hand situation includes seventeen summary statistics on performance and valuable tips on how to best play the hand during actual game situations.

This title brims with discussions on a variety of euchre topics designed to maximize the game win rate for advanced players. For example, players sitting in seats 1-3 can expect to be dealt a “Death Zone” hand about 81% of the time and a strong hand less than 5% of the time during the first round of bidding. The author introduces the mathematical Law of Diminishing Returns and explains why it has a significant influence on winning and losing in euchre. The reader will be intrigued by the comparisons provided in Chapter Three where the author and three different euchre experts make real, game decisions on when to name trump while being presented identical hands for consideration.
The section titled Naming Next: The Carnival Euchre Strategy is truly an incredible indictment against the current conventional euchre wisdom old-school cadre. In it the author has analyzed twenty-seven different naming next hand sceanrios – all recommended by various euchre experts – and the results are shocking. Cumulatively, these next hands are euchred over 48% of the time and generate a negative mean expected outcome of -0.365 points.
Power Euchre Volume V is an eye-opening stunner that will shatter all your traditional belief systems and constantly tease you with amazing factoids about euchre science. For example, do you know the most important advantage that a team can hold in euchre, and when they have it, that team eventually goes on to win the game 86% of the time? Power Euchre Volume V is a must read for the discriminating, advanced euchre player who desires to take their game to the ultimate next level: Power Player status.

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:46 am

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm
About his Book V, what hand or hands did he post with the lowest +EV? And did he document any borderline EV hands?

The problem is he never actually calculates the EV of any of his hands. He only calculates the EO (expected outcome) of calling each hand, which of course is a major problem and limitation to his work. He does 225 hand samples working his way down from the best EO hands to the worst or what he calls "defenseless hands". Only when you get to the last section titled "defenseless hands" (186-225 hand samples) does he finally reach -EO hands which will naturally approximate the lowest +EV calling hands since we know the lowest +EV calling hands will have a -EO. Here's some hand examples from that section:

Hand 186: Dealer turns down the QS and the action gets back to him in the 2nd round and he calls hearts with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-D)

EO = -.017, N =301.

Hand 189: Dealer turns down the 9C and S1 names Next with and leads Next:

(Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H)

EO: -.075, N = 425

Hand 194: Dealer picks up 9H and has:

(Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D)

EO: -.189, N = 212

Hand 198: Dealer picks up Ace of Hearts and has:

(Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-S)

EO: -.274, N = 321

Hand 199: Dealer picks up the 9H and has:

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_Q-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D)

EO: -.280, N = 421

Hand 201: Dealer picks up the JH and has:

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S)

EO: -.302, N = 308

Hand 202: Dealer turns down the 9D and S1 calls Next and leads Next with:

(Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-C)

E0: -.312, N = 381

Hand 205: Dealer turns down the KH, and S1 calls Next and leads trump with:

(Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C)

E0: -.366, N = 303

Hand 206: Dealer picks up JC with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_9-H)

EO: -.405, N = 373

Hand 210: Dealer turns down the QD, S2 calls clubs in the 2nd rd with:

(Card_K-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-D)

EO: -.612, N = 356

Hand 216: Dealer turns down the KH. S1 calls Next and leads trump with:

(Card_K-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_10-C)

E0: -.883, N = 402

Hand 217: Dealer turns down the KH, S1 calls Next and leads trump with:

(Card_J-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

EO: -.893, N = 403

Hand 219: Dealer turns down the 9H, S1 calls Next and leads the AS with:

(Card_A-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_10-C)

EO: -1.050, N = 301

Hand 224: Dealer turns up the AH, and S1 orders him up with:

(Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-D)

EO: -1.56, N = 159

Hand 225: Dealer turns up the JH, S1 orders him up with:

(Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_9-D)

EO: -1.862, N = 414
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm
Or donating when at 9 to 6/7?

As far as I can remember, he never talks about donating at 9 to 6/7. He never considers that strategy.
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm
Did his book ever discuss a standard deviation or 95 CI concerning Euchre?

Yes, he talks about whether a hand sample reached a 95% CI several times (I don't remember him mentioning standard deviation tho). Here's an example, Hand 35, where he analyzes what's better between calling and going alone:

Dealer picks up the JC and brings his partner along with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-S)
EZ: "This hand is identical to Hand 26 except in this scenario the dealer plays along with his partner. Hand 35 has a 100% win rate and a mean expected outcome of 1.694 points per attempt playing with the partner based on a sample of 157 hands played. However make no mistake--this hand can be euchred. The dealer would be in serious trouble if one opponent held the Ace of spades and the other opponent held three trump. Analysis indicates that the optimal move is to play this hand alone. Having the partner sit out the dance yields an expected outcome of 2.0 points per play. The difference in means between the two plays is statistically significant at 95% confidence level (t = 2.443) which provides the statistical proof to always play this powerful hand alone from the dealer position".
Another example, Hand 78 (dealer turns down 9H, S1 calls clubs with:

(Card_J-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_J-D) (Card_10-D)

He analyzed which lead was better between the JC and the TD:
EZ: "Statistically speaking--and much to my own suprise--there is no difference in mean expected outcome for this hand whether seat #1 leads out his Right bower or the 10 of diamonds. The diamond lead generates a mean expected outcome of 1.145 points per play based on a data sample of 200 hands played. The Right Bower lead generates a mean expected outcome of 1.06 points per play based on a data set of 201 hands played. There is no statistically significant difference between the two different leads."
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm
Statistical nature of his hand rating system for ordering or assisting? And did he ever discuss why most of his hands were in the 200 range, some less?

It is curious why many of his hand samples are so small--some less than 200--if a computer simulation is doing all the work. I mean it's certainly possible that he stopped doing some samples once a 95% CI was reached, but it is unclear if that's the case. We are left to assume all these hands have reached a 95% CI except for the times he states there is no statistical difference.
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:18 pm
Finally, a defensive call as passing would be even more Negative results.

All his analysis assumes the cost of passing = Zero. So if a hand has a -EO it's automatically a bad call. So it's not just that he doesn't mention defensive calls where passing would have a worse -EO than calling. He assumes this very concept doesn't exist which makes his entire book a total farce!

That said, I still would recommend this book to any expert becuz there is value in being able to look at 225 hand samples, and an expert knows when to simply ignore all the BS and bad conclusions the author draws and just focus on the data and draw his own conclusions/hypotheses. But I would never recommend this book to a non-expert. The author doesn't actually know how to play euchre. When he assumes the cost of passing is zero and draws tons of confident conclusions from that, he's basically telling us he doesn't really understand the game. Becuz of this problem, this book is actually a very dangerous read for the non-expert. The non-expert is too likely to be led astray and pick up bad habits.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:03 am

Im in for tonight

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:39 am

WOW!

Thanks Ed & Wes for comments and samples of Eric's book. Once you buy the Kindle version is there a time limit or not?

Just might do it and look for myself.

I wonder who those old school experts were that refers to. My brother and I played Joe Andrews in a tournament in Niagara Falls (long time ago). We skunked em in a game. Joe was an expert at Hearts, not Euchre! I once sent him an email asking him what percent of euchre was Luck. That was my test of Joe to see if he really knew anything. Well, he never responded but later thought more about it. This was before he published his book. Criticism of his book is that he seldom gave advice on any hands and short on strategy. Joe never joined the discussion on ES which to me says something. I went to a number of his tournaments.

Then there is Natty Bumpo from ES. We use play about six of us on Sunday mornings for a number of years. Natty was a very good player, but his issue was he was very predictable. Especially about calling Next, and 2nd seat (should shut their mouth, seldom assist) amount some other things. Well, I tracked 100 games against Natty and hand various partners as well as he. These were all just as good as T-Bolt as well. (No offense Wes, just that Ed knows the ES players. You both are top notch!) None were average players. Not to brag but I had a 59.2% win rate against Natty. Bottom line is Natty would not adjust, situational play and was too predictable, making him a sitting Duck. No BS. Okay, true, any player, no matter how good can be defeated! Even skunked!

And the expert Fred B., also a book writer and programmed a simulator, talked and commented a lot on ES. But guess what, he never would play on Sunday morning against the Big Boy! And we had tournaments, and he never once got joined. My assessment of Fred was that he was more theory that real life live euchre strategy. There is a difference between relying on his simulator (programmed as how four (4) Freds would play the game) results. Euchre is a little different though. You have to "ADJUST" to situations on the fly!

One of the best players I found was actually from Australia.

Going to tournaments you get to meet a lot of really good players and test just how good you are. Problem is with 90 to 100 players, 50 teams or so, you have to have three qualifiers to win. One is you have to a have a good partner. Two you have to have some luck. That means that sometimes you choose this card or that. You have to get lucky and choose the correct card. Or when making trump, get lucky to avoid opposing hand or someone bagging. That's having good intuition as well. Also getting loners, which is mostly luck too. Three, you have to get better than "average cards" because statistically with 40 to 60 partnerships, with many really good players, some teams surely will get good cards. Cannot be helped. But if you consistently place in the top 10%, it does say something. In the Flint tournaments, some of the Canadian teams (4 or 5) are excellent players. As good as any around. And they have a chip on their shoulder too. (I have some stories about the Canadians, later) Bottom line in Euchre, you have to be more than 10% to 20% better than your opponents to overcome luck. Even then with Luck factor being about 30 to 40% in euchre, it still may not be enough to win! And guess what in euchre, you pretty much top out on what you know versus other players who also study the game in depth. And most all of the good players, play the game similarly. Some fundamentals and strategy is the same, but not all. I am not a bragger, I have my faults, not always right, but will say, I am as good as . . .!

So you see, you get to analyze what works and what does not. I never saw him at any of these tournaments. So where in the hell did he get his information about "old school" players? I will say this, Eric Zalas's approach is not the ticket. But I am sure their is some value in his books.

Thanks again for you information.

~IRISHWOLF

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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:18 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:39 am
WOW!

Thanks Ed & Wes for comments and samples of Eric's book. Once you buy the Kindle version is there a time limit or not?


No, I still have it on my phone. Its like buying a paper back but digital, Irishwolf. No time limit what so ever.

Just might do it and look for myself.

I wonder who those old school experts were that refers to. My brother and I played Joe Andrews in a tournament in Niagara Falls (long time ago). We skunked em in a game. Joe was an expert at Hearts, not Euchre! I once sent him an email asking him what percent of euchre was Luck. That was my test of Joe to see if he really knew anything. Well, he never responded but later thought more about it. This was before he published his book. Criticism of his book is that he seldom gave advice on any hands and short on strategy. Joe never joined the discussion on ES which to me says something. I went to a number of his tournaments.

It is explained in the book and you can see him reference these players frequently, like a lot. Some of actually you mentioned below. Just to name a few, he references, Natty, Joe Andrews, Don(Dlan), Fred aka FastFreddy/Sword4hire, Harvey Lapp amongst several others.


Then there is Natty Bumpo from ES. We use play about six of us on Sunday mornings for a number of years. Natty was a very good player, but his issue was he was very predictable. Especially about calling Next, and 2nd seat (should shut their mouth, seldom assist) amount some other things. Well, I tracked 100 games against Natty and hand various partners as well as he. These were all just as good as T-Bolt as well. (No offense Wes, just that Ed knows the ES players. You both are top notch!) None were average players. Not to brag but I had a 59.2% win rate against Natty. Bottom line is Natty would not adjust, situational play and was too predictable, making him a sitting Duck. No BS. Okay, true, any player, no matter how good can be defeated! Even skunked!


I'm not sure if you recall but It may have been a little bit before your time at ES, but When I was a little bit more combative about euchre. Natty and I went at it. He had that personality that rubbed me and many the wrong way. Anyways. We decided on a challenge and needless to say I won but in that 25 game challenge I held a 72% win rate over Natty and Ryan. Just saying is all, :)

Yes that was one of my biggest things I disliked about him. I didn't totally disagree with everything he said but after the challenge we buried the hatchet and we parted peacefully and respectfully.



And the expert Fred B., also a book writer and programmed a simulator, talked and commented a lot on ES. But guess what, he never would play on Sunday morning against the Big Boy! And we had tournaments, and he never once got joined. My assessment of Fred was that he was more theory that real life live euchre strategy. There is a difference between relying on his simulator (programmed as how four (4) Freds would play the game) results. Euchre is a little different though. You have to "ADJUST" to situations on the fly!



Fred never did play alot on ES. He did play a lot from what I remember normally in Yahoo outside of ES. I think he slowly stopped playing as much and then just became a little picky with whom he played with and when. He did go to tournaments. I've met him before. When I was first started playing euchre online he was one of the better players, although I believe he does have flaws in his games looking back. Too hard core math oriented(like some people I have come know, ;)

One of the best players I found was actually from Australia.

Going to tournaments you get to meet a lot of really good players and test just how good you are. Problem is with 90 to 100 players, 50 teams or so, you have to have three qualifiers to win. One is you have to a have a good partner. Two you have to have some luck. That means that sometimes you choose this card or that. You have to get lucky and choose the correct card. Or when making trump, get lucky to avoid opposing hand or someone bagging. That's having good intuition as well. Also getting loners, which is mostly luck too. Three, you have to get better than "average cards" because statistically with 40 to 60 partnerships, with many really good players, some teams surely will get good cards. Cannot be helped. But if you consistently place in the top 10%, it does say something. In the Flint tournaments, some of the Canadian teams (4 or 5) are excellent players. As good as any around. And they have a chip on their shoulder too. (I have some stories about the Canadians, later) Bottom line in Euchre, you have to be more than 10% to 20% better than your opponents to overcome luck. Even then with Luck factor being about 30 to 40% in euchre, it still may not be enough to win! And guess what in euchre, you pretty much top out on what you know versus other players who also study the game in depth. And most all of the good players, play the game similarly. Some fundamentals and strategy is the same, but not all. I am not a bragger, I have my faults, not always right, but will say, I am as good as . . .!

So you see, you get to analyze what works and what does not. I never saw him at any of these tournaments. So where in the hell did he get his information about "old school" players? I will say this, Eric Zalas's approach is not the ticket. But I am sure their is some value in his books.

Again, I have not read all his books just the one and even though I disagree with a great many things. His tone is much like Natty's in that he thinks he's knows it all. You'll see Irishwolf. There is some value that can be had out of it but at the same time its more entertaining than anything and if I had to buy it again. I would have.


Tbolt65
Edward


Thanks again for you information.

~IRISHWOLF

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:44 pm

Just a reminder, I am in for Euchre tonight. I know Wes and I'm sure IrishWolf is in.
We do need a 4th so please don't be shy. Thats at World of Cardgames (make sure you have atleast 10 games in prior or you wont be able to see the table). Go to the Sticky on the Monday Night game thread at the very top of this forum and you'll see what to do. Game time today will enough players will be at 4pm pacific / 7pm Eastern. Thats 6pm central.


Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:44 pm
Just a reminder, I am in for Euchre tonight. I know Wes and I'm sure IrishWolf is in.
We do need a 4th so please don't be shy. Thats at World of Cardgames (make sure you have atleast 10 games in prior or you wont be able to see the table). Go to the Sticky on the Monday Night game thread at the very top of this forum and you'll see what to do. Game time today will enough players will be at 4pm pacific / 7pm Eastern. Thats 6pm central.


Tbolt65
Edward
Kirsten is out today. Has plans. That was probably our last hope. Sigh.

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:41 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:19 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:44 pm
Just a reminder, I am in for Euchre tonight. I know Wes and I'm sure IrishWolf is in.
We do need a 4th so please don't be shy. Thats at World of Cardgames (make sure you have atleast 10 games in prior or you wont be able to see the table). Go to the Sticky on the Monday Night game thread at the very top of this forum and you'll see what to do. Game time today will enough players will be at 4pm pacific / 7pm Eastern. Thats 6pm central.


Tbolt65
Edward
Kirsten is out today. Has plans. That was probably our last hope. Sigh.
Never give up. Someone will see we will need a fourth and we shall get one. Just like in euchre. It's never over til it's over. Just because it looks crappy doesn't mean we can't pull it out. That's how I always view euchre. So with that said, we await a confirmed 4th for World of Cardgames Euchre for OhioEuchre.

Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:58 pm

Hey Ed, the guy from Australia had a screen name of PIMPED_HER_OUT. Another excellent player was kmaxm2001 (kc martin). I was pretty good friends with kmax. Perry (from Chicago, Euchre Universe, was good as well but did not play often with us. Harvey Lapp, The Rabbit, is from Vegas, a card dealer. Does he play with you guys? Met him in Cleveland at Joe's tournament. He was from Buffalo. I sold him a Euchre T-shirt, cheap.

Now that is a good win percentage against Natty. Who was your partner? You know he was or is a lawyer, never wrong. Never admitted he was wrong on anything even when you gave him all the facts.

We (many on ES) had a big discussion about a controversial play about leading trump or an off suit ace (by the dealer), it was a question submitted by this guy, EMPTY_BEE. Pretty interesting, (I still have all the data) as the dealer's partner assisted. Dealer trumps the 1st trick, has a green off suit ace and a trump. The questions was, should the dealer now he lead his green singleton ace or his only trump? I did a lot of hands to prove which was statistically better and Natty still disagreed. All the hands played both ways, various holding for S2. I did indicated that the Ace should be led first because often enough S2 will not get back to your Green ace. You will get a few more sweeps by leading trump as I remember it. S2 can slough his bad card. But way fewer times being euchred depend on how thin S2 is when assisting. It boiled down to getting more points in the long-run by leading the Ace. Probably to this day he still disagrees and maybe for good reason because Natty at S2 will only assist with a strong hand. However, that is still questionable because to get back to the green ace because you have to have that suit of two unknown off suits, a 50% chance). Give the facts, after that, who cares? The discussion went on for days!

But I will say, give him his dues, he was often more right than wrong! He was an excellent writer and had lots of humor during the games. He use to give Joe Andrews a bunch s h i t, unnecessarily. Did not want anyone competing with his pamphlet, lol.

I did not get on ES until about 2007 or 2008.

I worked on getting another player for tonight, but was not successful. I hate the bots but I guess we might have to. I am in!

~Irishwolf

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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:52 pm

If we can't get 4 humans I'm out. I can't piss off my gf to play with a bot. That would definitely be a -EV decision.

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