The math behind ordering 3 trump, no 2nd Rd hand from S1-R1

Ask questions, discuss and debate your strategies, euchre polls and more
Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1541
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Re: The math behind ordering 3 trump, no 2nd Rd hand from S1-R1

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:33 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:58 am
Calling next, I got 31% make a point, 69% get euchred (150 hands).

I can also confirm your results on Pass-Pass. Very similar! I see no need to post the details.

~Irishwolf
I agree. Looking at those numbers there is no need to test "call" vs "pass-call Next with no trump no aces". Calling is the clear winner here. So I'll move on from this hand.



Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1541
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:43 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:34 am
That said in real life EVEN IF "pass-pass" did better than "pass-call Next" I would still choose the latter strategy if I were in that spot and the score wasn't up 9-8, tied 8-8. And I can be in that spot becuz against a Jack upcard I'm not ordering except at 9-9, 9-7/9-6. So if S4 passes that Jack I'm now in that spot which begs the question in this hypothetical: why would I still go against the math and call Next with no trump no aces in that spot?!?! Am I irrational? The answer is I am willing to take a few slight EV losses to protect the integrity of my range. I always want my R2-S1 pass to = I have reverse Next blocked so my P can properly read my hand. This allows my P to go alone much weaker in reverse Next should S2 pass, and should S2 call reverse Next, my P can take more optimal lines to euchre S2 becuz he knows what I hold.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm
In principle and theory it looks good on paper and I agree with you. I've always said no matter the skill level, if both partners are on the same page they will have success. They will know what their partner expects and what certain things mean and truly a form of communication. That helps their over all play. Now we all know there is much to euchre but if partners understand each other and how they play regardless if they play the same this is just as valuable too. However, against players that pay attention and are catching on to whats going on. This information now can be used against you and you can be exploited.

To be honest I really just don't buy the general "you will get exploited" argument in euchre. I really don't think it's something we need to worry about. In euchre the vast majority of the time you are a slave to your hand. Like if the dealer thinks I call Next too much what's he gonna do about it when he has a bunch of red cards. In contrast this is why worrying about being exploited IS a real thing in poker becuz in that game a player does not need a hand to exploit you. If he thinks you fold too much, he can bluff you more often. He doesn't need a hand to execute his exploitative strategy. In poker you are NOT a slave to your hand.

And another thing, even if I'm wrong, who are these great players that are gonna exploit us? You think the great players we play with in the tournament are gonna exploit us? No way man. Those guys have wives, kids, grandkids, vacation homes. They're not sitting at home thinking about how to get us in a dumb game that nobody cake make money at. I know you're not worried about great players on the app or on WOCGs cuz there are none. You're worrying about ghosts but they don't exist man.

In fact there is probably only one person on this planet that we would have to worry about exploiting us, and he's not even human, he's some canine from Ireland. Becuz that dude has the "madness". He will sit at his kitchen table and find the spots to exploit us. He won't stop until he does. That type of person is very rare tho. I know becuz I have the same "madness" and I barely ever come across people like me. Anyways, how many times have we played against Irishwolf? Like barely ever. Ain't like we're playing against him and some other pro for big monies every day. THEN and pretty much ONLY THEN would I actually worry about being exploited.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm
Also even if they don't figure it out, we may be giving up free points where a pass-pass would cut down on that but I suggest doing that against weaker teams more often and stronger teams less often but still do it, pass-pass
The theory of S1-R2 calling something veering towards Next when you don't block reverse Next is that the cost of passing is then high enough to justify potentially calling thin. I.E. When the cost of passing is high the theoretical cost of a euchre is low, low enough where you're better off calling something and gambling hoping to get lucky. While there may be a few hands at the very bottom of my range that are -EV calls (I don't really know, just saying for sake of argument), I'd rather keep those hands in my range to protect the overall integrity of my range. Like I said before, I want my P to know exactly what I have when I pass from S1-R2. I want him to use that information and profit from it. I don't want him unsure and guessing. Hopefully that information is valuable enough to overcome those hands at the bottom of my calling range that may be -EV.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm
Coming to an understanding of what you pass and what I pass how ever infrequent, usually means I have stoppers or at least reverse next stopped majority of the time. Can be a huge benefit and I believe there is that underlying understanding already but I have stated and shown but sometimes you forget and get upset that I do pass with nothing what so ever in next or reverse next. This occurrence is super rare. I feel that it brings a little balance and cuts out both of us always calling something and getting euchred too much. However, if you want to go ahead and have me shore this up so that I'm calling something every single time in seat two as to the pass-pass. And allow for your above assertation to take place. We can have a go at that and see what happens, but I'm telling you this. Against weaker players its going to seem almost magical and therefore confirmation bias will set in. We need to play against better opponents. I maintain that little mistakes and even bleeding however small it is points away at a higher level of play is extremely detrimental and can be the difference maker in a win or loss at these higher level of play.


Tbolt65
Edward
I think you meant S1. Yes I want you calling something veering towards Next from S1-R2 every time you don't block reverse Next. This isn't JUST to give me accurate information in the 2nd rd allowing me to read your hand and utilize that info. That's one aspect. The other, perhaps even more important aspect is this: If we are going to bag heavy from 3S-R1 when we have 2 tricks in Next as we like to do, it is critically important our P does NOT pass in the 2nd round when he doesn't block reverse Next. That f**ks up our whole bagging strategy.

If I'm bagging a hand like this in 3S-R1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-S)

vs (Card_10-H)

I need you to back me up in the 2nd round. If youre even occasionally passing in the 2nd round when you don't block reverse Next I can't bag that hand. Bagging that hand and other hands we like to bag entail a lot of trust in our P. We cant break that trust. And that's the other big value to the "always call something from S1-R2 veering towards Next if we don't block reverse Next" strategy. It allows us to bag from the 3S more heavily.

That said, I still need to test out various hands in our bagging strategy at the kitchen table. Irishwolf already exposed us of one leak as we were both bagging:

(Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S)

vs a (Card_K-H)

PS: If someone was exploiting this strategy what would it even look like? In poker a tell only has value if it actually changes your action. If you would've done the same thing anyways, then that tell is irrelevant. We can say a similar thing about euchre. It doesn't really matter if you think your opponents call Next too much when you're locked into another hand, and the vast majority of time that IS the case. What about when the dealer passes stopper/euchre hands to exploit us? That's a wash cuz we would do the same thing. If exploiting us is possible there is really one way to do it. S2 or S4 has to pass otherwise biddable hands bagging us in Next. Ideally the biddable hand would be towards the marginal end of the spectrum to lower the potential cost of this strategy. A hand like this for example:

Dealer upcard: (Card_9-C)

And the dealer has this:

(Card_J-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D)

The dealer passes a marginal biddable R+1 hand hoping to trap us in Next.

Or say this hand:

Dealer upcard: (Card_9-C)

S2 has:

(Card_J-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

S2 passes a marginal biddable L+1+A hand in order to bag Next.

In our tournament and the app people are already passing these hands unintentionally trapping me ALL THE TIME. That's part of the reason I have by far the highest euchre rate in our tournament and perhaps the highest on the app. If I don't have the highest euchre rate only scorp beats me out. And guess what all those extra euchres still didn't stop me from winning the championship or the success I've had on the app, but that's besides the point. What's really cool about this is those hands and many others are testable. Instead of wondering I can actually find out if getting exploited is a real theoretical problem, but theoretical is all it will probably remain becuz in real life people correctly don't care about this game enough to exploit us, even the great ones.

Tbolt65
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:43 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:34 am
That said in real life EVEN IF "pass-pass" did better than "pass-call Next" I would still choose the latter strategy if I were in that spot and the score wasn't up 9-8, tied 8-8. And I can be in that spot becuz against a Jack upcard I'm not ordering except at 9-9, 9-7/9-6. So if S4 passes that Jack I'm now in that spot which begs the question in this hypothetical: why would I still go against the math and call Next with no trump no aces in that spot?!?! Am I irrational? The answer is I am willing to take a few slight EV losses to protect the integrity of my range. I always want my R2-S1 pass to = I have reverse Next blocked so my P can properly read my hand. This allows my P to go alone much weaker in reverse Next should S2 pass, and should S2 call reverse Next, my P can take more optimal lines to euchre S2 becuz he knows what I hold.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm
In principle and theory it looks good on paper and I agree with you. I've always said no matter the skill level, if both partners are on the same page they will have success. They will know what their partner expects and what certain things mean and truly a form of communication. That helps their over all play. Now we all know there is much to euchre but if partners understand each other and how they play regardless if they play the same this is just as valuable too. However, against players that pay attention and are catching on to whats going on. This information now can be used against you and you can be exploited.

To be honest I really just don't buy the general "you will get exploited" argument in euchre. I really don't think it's something we need to worry about. In euchre the vast majority of the time you are a slave to your hand. Like if the dealer thinks I call Next too much what's he gonna do about it when he has a bunch of red cards. In contrast this is why worrying about being exploited IS a real thing in poker becuz in that game a player does not need a hand to exploit you. If he thinks you fold too much, he can bluff you more often. He doesn't need a hand to execute his exploitative strategy. In poker you are NOT a slave to your hand.


Wes when we started to do some euchre at your house. The sole reason I started to keep track of scoring was A. to show you I was exploiting you and B. show proof that I was better than you because of said exploitation. Whether that be from first or 3rd , or Seat 4. So that you would have to listen to what I was saying. Or at least not totally dismiss it. Now you've picked up on a couple things I said and what I was doing and you changed, and I'm not all high and mighty but I have also learned a couple things from you as well. The self donate in Dealer seat and picking up two trump two Aces as dealer, which I had passed before.

And another thing, even if I'm wrong, who are these great players that are gonna exploit us? You think the great players we play with in the tournament are gonna exploit us? No way man. Those guys have wives, kids, grandkids, vacation homes. They're not sitting at home thinking about how to get us in a dumb game that nobody cake make money at. I know you're not worried about great players on the app or on WOCGs cuz there are none. You're worrying about ghosts but they don't exist man.

You have to know how to properly respond in all situations because stuff you might do vs weakers players would not necessarily be true vs thinking player let alone very good players.

In fact there is probably only one person on this planet that we would have to worry about exploiting us, and he's not even human, he's some canine from Ireland. Becuz that dude has the "madness". He will sit at his kitchen table and find the spots to exploit us. He won't stop until he does. That type of person is very rare tho. I know becuz I have the same "madness" and I barely ever come across people like me. Anyways, how many times have we played against Irishwolf? Like barely ever. Ain't like we're playing against him and some other pro for big monies every day. THEN and pretty much ONLY THEN would I actually worry about being exploited.



Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm
Also even if they don't figure it out, we may be giving up free points where a pass-pass would cut down on that but I suggest doing that against weaker teams more often and stronger teams less often but still do it, pass-pass
The theory of S1-R2 calling something veering towards Next when you don't block reverse Next is that the cost of passing is then high enough to justify potentially calling thin. I.E. When the cost of passing is high the theoretical cost of a euchre is low, low enough where you're better off calling something and gambling hoping to get lucky. While there may be a few hands at the very bottom of my range that are -EV calls (I don't really know, just saying for sake of argument), I'd rather keep those hands in my range to protect the overall integrity of my range. Like I said before, I want my P to know exactly what I have when I pass from S1-R2. I want him to use that information and profit from it. I don't want him unsure and guessing. Hopefully that information is valuable enough to overcome those hands at the bottom of my calling range that may be -EV.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm
Coming to an understanding of what you pass and what I pass how ever infrequent, usually means I have stoppers or at least reverse next stopped majority of the time. Can be a huge benefit and I believe there is that underlying understanding already but I have stated and shown but sometimes you forget and get upset that I do pass with nothing what so ever in next or reverse next. This occurrence is super rare. I feel that it brings a little balance and cuts out both of us always calling something and getting euchred too much. However, if you want to go ahead and have me shore this up so that I'm calling something every single time in seat two as to the pass-pass. And allow for your above assertation to take place. We can have a go at that and see what happens, but I'm telling you this. Against weaker players its going to seem almost magical and therefore confirmation bias will set in. We need to play against better opponents. I maintain that little mistakes and even bleeding however small it is points away at a higher level of play is extremely detrimental and can be the difference maker in a win or loss at these higher level of play.


Tbolt65
Edward
I think you meant S1. Yes I want you calling something veering towards Next from S1-R2 every time you don't block reverse Next. This isn't JUST to give me accurate information in the 2nd rd allowing me to read your hand and utilize that info. That's one aspect. The other, perhaps even more important aspect is this: If we are going to bag heavy from 3S-R1 when we have 2 tricks in Next as we like to do, it is critically important our P does NOT pass in the 2nd round when he doesn't block reverse Next. That f**ks up our whole bagging strategy.

If I'm bagging a hand like this in 3S-R1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_J-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-S)

vs (Card_10-H)

I need you to back me up in the 2nd round. If youre even occasionally passing in the 2nd round when you don't block reverse Next I can't bag that hand. Bagging that hand and other hands we like to bag entail a lot of trust in our P. We cant break that trust. And that's the other big value to the "always call something from S1-R2 veering towards Next if we don't block reverse Next" strategy. It allows us to bag from the 3S more heavily.

Yeah Np, if you want to start doing that I said we can try it out when I text'd you the other day about it when we were about to play some online euchre.

That said, I still need to test out various hands in our bagging strategy at the kitchen table. Irishwolf already exposed us of one leak as we were both bagging:

(Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S)

vs a (Card_K-H)

PS: If someone was exploiting this strategy what would it even look like? In poker a tell only has value if it actually changes your action. If you would've done the same thing anyways, then that tell is irrelevant. We can say a similar thing about euchre. It doesn't really matter if you think your opponents call Next too much when you're locked into another hand, and the vast majority of time that IS the case. What about when the dealer passes stopper/euchre hands to exploit us? That's a wash cuz we would do the same thing. If exploiting us is possible there is really one way to do it. S2 or S4 has to pass otherwise biddable hands bagging us in Next. Ideally the biddable hand would be towards the marginal end of the spectrum to lower the potential cost of this strategy. A hand like this for example:

Dealer upcard: (Card_9-C)

And the dealer has this:

(Card_J-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-D)

The dealer passes a marginal biddable R+1 hand hoping to trap us in Next.

Or say this hand:

Dealer upcard: (Card_9-C)

S2 has:

(Card_J-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S)

S2 passes a marginal biddable L+1+A hand in order to bag Next.

In our tournament and the app people are already passing these hands unintentionally trapping me ALL THE TIME. That's part of the reason I have by far the highest euchre rate in our tournament and perhaps the highest on the app. If I don't have the highest euchre rate only scorp beats me out. And guess what all those extra euchres still didn't stop me from winning the championship or the success I've had on the app, but that's besides the point. What's really cool about this is those hands and many others are testable. Instead of wondering I can actually find out if getting exploited is a real theoretical problem, but theoretical is all it will probably remain becuz in real life people correctly don't care about this game enough to exploit us, even the great ones.

Scorp definitely beats you out on the euchre's. I feel I have tammed you a little bit on the euchres but I feel you fall back into old habbits when I'm not correcting you, hehe. I haven't really been hyper anal about euchre in a long time. Like I have said on many ocassions prior to a year and a half ago. I had completely stopped playing euchre day in and day out, and euchre all together for 7 straight years. I've told you I've lost a step. I don't have the hyper anal thought process anymore where I just pour myself into euchre. Plus I think my memory is slightly going. When you play euchre day in and day out 4-8 hours a day every day. You start see a whole lot of things plus with getting that much time in euchre you really can be a close to a savant in euchre as there could be because your sooooooo in tuned with the game, the partners, the opponents and the the flow of the cards you totally see everything and at the same time your still looking to get better. I'm a honest person and a perfectionist but not gun ho as before like I have said. Trust me I'm not where I should be. With that being said my personality has changed and I'm no longer the same person I was in my first 8-10 years of my euchre playing days from 1998-2008. I literally played euchre everyday. Min. of 4hrs of euchre. From 2008-12ish I played sparingly So trust me When I say, the game definitely has its twerks and changes vs Thinking players and players that know about ploys and higher end playing. That's why its so important to play in the OhioEuchre Games on Monday. It pains me that I can't play on Mondays. Because I myself would like to continue to sharpen my game and get better vs people who are thinking and taking the game seriously. The people on WoCG are just bad. Karman is not as bad but its pretty bad too. I've been playing a little more on Euchre 3D when I can but I've been busy at work the last few weeks and I'm close to 2k now on there and I find people are a little better there but I haven't been to the 2300-2500 range yet where alot of those players post on the /euchre reddit forum that I also visit.

But euchre boils down to a partnership. At the highest levels when both partners are in tune with each other. You can really see things click. Against weaker players its too easy and sure its fun but at the same like I have said over and over. if your not familiar with playing against people that think about euchre regardless of how high their skill level is. You can be setting yourself up to fail by not being a complete player and by always playing in routine situations where in the games where you have to think you will be making mistakes and at that those levels its the little things that make or break you. Because there literally is no room for errors. The team that makes the less errors will be the winner. I mean that goes for at all levels but more especially when mistakes are fewer and fewer. So you look for every advantage and nuances in the game give you that euchre or that march. Have to recognize that 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10,000 hands or games where you just play a hand differently than normal to give you those extra points that you need. Man as I type this I'm starting to feel energized because truly that what euchre does to
you when you make these perfect plays at the right time and you know it could have easily gone the other way if you had played it normally. This leads me to how I've gone into the visualization of the cards on loners and what to lead. I generally have a method as to what to lead vs what suit and color was picked up but I also try to visualize knowing how the person that order plays and what they go alone with and then try to see what my partner might have in their make up as well so I can possibly lead to their void or possible Ace and get a stopper. Anyways I'm starting to ramble on and I've repeated msyelf a couple times in particular run on paragraph. Bottom line is this, don't rest on your laurels, and don't get comfortable against the weaker players. You will be caught off guard against those "thinking players" and that could be the difference maker in winning and losing.


Tbolt65
Edward





Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 1541
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:47 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am
Wes when we started to do some euchre at your house. The sole reason I started to keep track of scoring was A. to show you I was exploiting you and B. show proof that I was better than you because of said exploitation. Whether that be from first or 3rd , or Seat 4. So that you would have to listen to what I was saying. Or at least not totally dismiss it. Now you've picked up on a couple things I said and what I was doing and you changed, and I'm not all high and mighty but I have also learned a couple things from you as well. The self donate in Dealer seat and picking up two trump two Aces as dealer, which I had passed before.
Yeah I don't buy it. You still need a hand to exploit me. That's the problem with euchre. You were probably running hot with those type of hands. I don't recall you passing biddable hands to try to "get me". I know you bag more heavy vs me when I'm the dealer and you're in the 3rd seat, but again, I'm not really getting out of line from the dealer spot. As far as I can tell I am only making +EV calls from that spot except for special dealer donating situations. Either way, there's inherent risks the heavier you bag in that spot when you don't have a P like me in S1 you can count on to play solid defense.

Also I have learned a lot from you. I don't dismiss anything you say. I have no ego in this regard. I sponge everything. You better have learned a few things from me. I've certainly never held back with you. I've tried to teach you everything I know since we met and I've earnestly tried to learn everything you know also. Also I don't mind that you thought or think you're better than me. I like that fire. All I really want is for us to be the best partnership possible. But to draw the kinda conclusion you wanna draw about "exploiting me" we need hard data. And the good news is we now have the ability to test this out. You can give me any first round hand from any seat you would play differently vs me than you would anyone else (If you play it the same it doesn't count) and I can test it out and give you the results. We don't have to speculate on this.

For example, remember the S1-R1 3 trump no 2nd rnd hands I tested itt. Guess what, I played all hands as myself, making the same thin +EV calls as dealer and calling still did better than pass-pass or pass-call Next which implies you cannot exploit me by passing that hand. That's actually a huge finding. That finding actually strongly suggests that my dealer calling strategy is NOT exploitable from S1. IOW any time you "thought" you were exploiting me from S1-R1 was an illusion. In actuality you were just running hot in that spot. And sure you can exploit me when I'm the dealer with a biddable hand from S1 when you have a 2nd rd hand but that doesn't count, that's a wash cuz I'm doing the same to you.

For all we know the same logic applies to your 3S exploits when I'm the dealer. For one thing we already know that if you try to exploit me with:

(Card_Q-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-S)

Vs a (Card_K-H) upcard and most likely the (Card_A-H) too

You will cost your team points in the long run. Again, when I ran that sample all players played like me. That's another VERY telling finding. That's why we need hard data to prove I'm exploitable. The mind can easily play tricks on oneself with a little run hot. Again, give me a hand you would play differently vs me and I'll test that out too.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am
You have to know how to properly respond in all situations because stuff you might do vs weakers players would not necessarily be true vs thinking player let alone very good players.
That goes without saying. It doesn't refute my claim that we probably don't really need to worry about being exploited. I spent 10 years playing poker as a hobby on the side constantly utilizing super exploitable strategies and I made over a quarter million doing it. How come I didn't go broke? Becuz virtually nobody exploited me. The debate about "being exploited" is really a two pronged process. First we need the hard data to establish that a certain strategy IS exploitable. Just so stories don't count. And if that IS established, we then need a compelling reason to believe we WILL be exploited becuz ideally we'd want to stick with the exploitable strategy becuz exploitable strategies easily outperform unexploitable game theoretic strategies when nobody exploits you.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am
Yeah Np, if you want to start doing that I said we can try it out when I text'd you the other day about it when we were about to play some online euchre.
Yes that's what I want. It will make us stronger in the first RD as our 3S bagging strategy will more likely be correct (I still feel the pain of bagging JJX from the 3S with you as my P in the partner's tournament over a year ago, and you had nothing and passed instead of calling Next and the S2 called and got the 2 pt march, that was a disaster sequence that likely cost us the game and maybe a chance at making the playoffs (I can't remember what record we needed to get in). We can't ever let that happen. So playing the way I suggest, opens up more 3S bagging opportunities, helps 3S-R2 make a multitude of better decisions whether on defense or offense. Here's another offense example. Say score is 0-0, dealer turns down the 9S and I pass in S1-R2 and the actions on you in Seat 3 with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-H)

With an amateur P you'd have to call clubs here with this marginal holding, but with me as your P you would quickly deduce that we have a euchre hand as a team, and thus you would correctly stick the dealer. Same idea if you had this club hand:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-H)

With an amateur P you'd feel compelled to make that marginal Next call, but with me you know it's an easy pass and that the dealer is in BIG trouble.

Sooooo much flows from the "If you don't have reverse Next blocked call something veering towards Next" strategy. It allows us to bag more from the 3S-R1, it allows S3-R2 to take more optimal lines on defense and get more euchres after a S2-R2 reverse next call, it allows S3-R2 to widen his range and go alone more often in reverse Next, and it allows S3-R2 to avoid making marginal calls that can often get him euchred. If you play this spot the way I do and make the proper adjustments, we can take our partnership to a level of chemistry that may have never been reached in the history of euchre!
Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am
Scorp definitely beats you out on the euchre's. I feel I have tammed you a little bit on the euchres but I feel you fall back into old habbits when I'm not correcting you, hehe. I haven't really been hyper anal about euchre in a long time. Like I have said on many ocassions prior to a year and a half ago. I had completely stopped playing euchre day in and day out, and euchre all together for 7 straight years. I've told you I've lost a step. I don't have the hyper anal thought process anymore where I just pour myself into euchre. Plus I think my memory is slightly going. When you play euchre day in and day out 4-8 hours a day every day. You start see a whole lot of things plus with getting that much time in euchre you really can be a close to a savant in euchre as there could be because your sooooooo in tuned with the game, the partners, the opponents and the the flow of the cards you totally see everything and at the same time your still looking to get better. I'm a honest person and a perfectionist but not gun ho as before like I have said. Trust me I'm not where I should be. With that being said my personality has changed and I'm no longer the same person I was in my first 8-10 years of my euchre playing days from 1998-2008. I literally played euchre everyday. Min. of 4hrs of euchre. From 2008-12ish I played sparingly So trust me When I say, the game definitely has its twerks and changes vs Thinking players and players that know about ploys and higher end playing. That's why its so important to play in the OhioEuchre Games on Monday. It pains me that I can't play on Mondays. Because I myself would like to continue to sharpen my game and get better vs people who are thinking and taking the game seriously. The people on WoCG are just bad. Karman is not as bad but its pretty bad too. I've been playing a little more on Euchre 3D when I can but I've been busy at work the last few weeks and I'm close to 2k now on there and I find people are a little better there but I haven't been to the 2300-2500 range yet where alot of those players post on the /euchre reddit forum that I also visit.


You have "tamed me" in the sense that I have certainly learned a lot from you. You not getting into the Monday Night game saddens me greatly but before I expound on that I first I wanna make a clarification to others just in case. When I said there are no great players on WoCGs I wasn't referring to the Monday night game. That's a serious, tough game. Everyone is truly trying to win. Mistakes are still made (by including myself_ but they of a whole different nature than the usual mistakes you see in a random game. I was referring to the WoCGs me and Edward usually play in on Fridays or Saturdays where ridiculous hands like this happen routinely:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

I was wondering if we could organize another Ohioeuchre game on Friday's at 2pm PST so 5pm EST playing anywhere from 1 to 2 hrs whatever. That way Edward can play. Would anybody be interested in that time slot? Me and Ed will be there so we only need 2 commits. [/color]

Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am
But euchre boils down to a partnership. At the highest levels when both partners are in tune with each other. You can really see things click. Against weaker players its too easy and sure its fun but at the same like I have said over and over. if your not familiar with playing against people that think about euchre regardless of how high their skill level is. You can be setting yourself up to fail by not being a complete player and by always playing in routine situations where in the games where you have to think you will be making mistakes and at that those levels its the little things that make or break you. Because there literally is no room for errors. The team that makes the less errors will be the winner. I mean that goes for at all levels but more especially when mistakes are fewer and fewer. So you look for every advantage and nuances in the game give you that euchre or that march. Have to recognize that 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10,000 hands or games where you just play a hand differently than normal to give you those extra points that you need. Man as I type this I'm starting to feel energized because truly that what euchre does to
you when you make these perfect plays at the right time and you know it could have easily gone the other way if you had played it normally. This leads me to how I've gone into the visualization of the cards on loners and what to lead. I generally have a method as to what to lead vs what suit and color was picked up but I also try to visualize knowing how the person that order plays and what they go alone with and then try to see what my partner might have in their make up as well so I can possibly lead to their void or possible Ace and get a stopper. Anyways I'm starting to ramble on and I've repeated msyelf a couple times in particular run on paragraph. Bottom line is this, don't rest on your laurels, and don't get comfortable against the weaker players. You will be caught off guard against those "thinking players" and that could be the difference maker in winning and losing.


Tbolt65
Edward



I agree with everything above. Against very good players adjustments will have to be made. For me it's actually easier to play against better players becuz I can deduce what they're up to. Bad players tax my brain more cuz I'm constantly thinking "well maybe they are doing this this time or maybe they're actually gonna do that". There's a lot of "maybes" in the thought process. Whereas with a good player I know what they're gonna generally do, I know what they must have or not have in certain spots. For example, say a 9S was turned down at 0-0 and a Pro passes from the 1S and I call reverse next (diamonds) with this hand in the 2S:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C)

The pro leads a club and say you end up taking the trick with a boss club or trumping in at S4 and then you lead trump on 2nd street. Guess what's gonna happen to that pro's guarded Left??!! :) I'm going to play my AD on your trump lead and strip him every time becuz I know that's what he has becuz I know he's not passing in that spot unless he has reverse Next blocked. BTW this play will work almost every time when Phil (from our tournament) passes in S1-R2, same with Kurt. Obviously true with me too but remember you're not exploiting me in this spot if I would do the same to you. Then it's a wash. Kurt and Phil are not making this same hand reading adjustment so if you do it to them you are truly exploiting them.

Tbolt65
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:21 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:04 am
Yeah Np, if you want to start doing that I said we can try it out when I text'd you the other day about it when we were about to play some online euchre.
Yes that's what I want. It will make us stronger in the first RD as our 3S bagging strategy will more likely be correct (I still feel the pain of bagging JJX from the 3S with you as my P in the partner's tournament over a year ago, and you had nothing and passed instead of calling Next and the S2 called and got the 2 pt march, that was a disaster sequence that likely cost us the game and maybe a chance at making the playoffs (I can't remember what record we needed to get in). We can't ever let that happen. So playing the way I suggest, opens up more 3S bagging opportunities, helps 3S-R2 make a multitude of better decisions whether on defense or offense. Here's another offense example. Say score is 0-0, dealer turns down the 9S and I pass in S1-R2 and the actions on you in Seat 3 with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_K-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-H)

With an amateur P you'd have to call clubs here with this marginal holding, but with me as your P you would quickly deduce that we have a euchre hand as a team, and thus you would correctly stick the dealer. Same idea if you had this club hand:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-H)

With an amateur P you'd feel compelled to make that marginal Next call, but with me you know it's an easy pass and that the dealer is in BIG trouble.

Sooooo much flows from the "If you don't have reverse Next blocked call something veering towards Next" strategy. It allows us to bag more from the 3S-R1, it allows S3-R2 to take more optimal lines on defense and get more euchres after a S2-R2 reverse next call, it allows S3-R2 to widen his range and go alone more often in reverse Next, and it allows S3-R2 to avoid making marginal calls that can often get him euchred. If you play this spot the way I do and make the proper adjustments, we can take our partnership to a level of chemistry that may have never been reached in the history of euchre!

[/quote]

LOL,

I love your enthusiasm 😎

In the words of Al Bundy, "Let's Rock"



Tbolt65
Edward

Post Reply