Weekly games 5-18 Pass, hoping for a euchre?

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Dlan
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Weekly games 5-18 Pass, hoping for a euchre?

Post by Dlan » Tue May 19, 2020 11:31 am

In second-round, having any possible lone calls stopped, should you pass?

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Wed May 20, 2020 10:19 am

In both hands, the opponents make a point while the passing team gives up a possible point.

IMO this is not a winning strategy.

Tbolt65
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Post by Tbolt65 » Wed May 20, 2020 2:30 pm

Giving up 1 point vs. getting set is better in the long run and immediately. The potential for a euchre and gaining 2pts because of it is key. Especially when your opponents are more apt to call on thinner than normal holdings. So in essence you can afford to gamble there in some situations but not all. While at the same time you are minimizing your own times you getting euchred yourself(team), by calling marginally.

Hand 1, Richard has a hand that he has a stopper in all suits. Not a particularly strong euchre hand but he has help for his partner if they call and prevents the other team from going along or marching. With them being up 4-0 this is really the safe play and arguably the better play for his team. It prevents him from getting set and giving up 2 points needlessly and gives a chance for his partner to call and have help for them if they do call.


Hand 2

The hand in question is my hand. I am in second seat and I am passing here at this score for a euchre. Which is 5-4 my opponents. I pass for all the above reasons I mentioned in my opening paragraph. Now I have a stronger holding than Richard and a good chance at a euchre. I know my opponents(Wes in this case) is calling thinner here or even blocking sometimes so I am going to give him every chance to hang himself so to speak and get those needed 2 points. Like I said before I am not passing in all situations here. Say at game ending scores like 9-9 or close out potentials of 9-"x" I am NEVER passing. I am going for the win.



In the end though what I think Don is getting at is if you pass too much then you are giving up to many point scoring opportunities and with that basic precept I agree but in various situations depending on your opponents and holdings you can make cases for passing at times and play a little more defensively or perhaps play defensively but "set mining"(poker term but also applies here too). Essentially playing for that euchre potentiality for those coveted 2pts.


Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Wed May 20, 2020 9:48 pm

I really appreciate Dlan, Don, making this post. Edward, Tbolt, sums it up very well with the following quote. I will add my comments following his quote.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:30 pm
.
In the end though what I think Don is getting at is if you pass too much then you are giving up to many point scoring opportunities and with that basic precept I agree but in various situations depending on your opponents and holdings you can make cases for passing at times and play a little more defensively or perhaps play defensively but "set mining"(poker term but also applies here too). Essentially playing for that euchre potentiality for those coveted 2pts.
Tbolt65
Edward
I am the R2 S1
(Card_J-C) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-H) Hand after the
(Card_K-C) Was turned down.
It is a very callable hand.
It is 3 factors above an edge hand.
It is BPS 3.0 vs 2.25 minimal order from S2
But is is also within my 0.25 to 0.75 range of “use personal discretion” limits. This could also be called “intuition” or factors too subtle for the BPS, or Advanced BPS. So from 2.25 to 3.00 points I may override the BPS. Ed, Tbolt, has asked in previous posts, why have a system if you don’t stick to it? Thanks to Dlan, Don Bunn, I have the opportunity to respond to Ed’s question. First, systems are not perfect. They ignore many factors and focus on a smaller number of factors. So if additional factors are important, then have a system to adjust the system. Secondly, the system is set up by imperfect humans, they may be incorrect (like the experts on Covid-19?, sorry). So they must be constantly tested. Having a range that allows for player discretion also tests the system, the BPS. Thirdly, BPS-Basic does not address the defensive advantages to a hand. My “player discretion” addresses the defensive advantages of this hand. Ed, Tbolt explained it perfectly in his post. So I will just say that I passed for defensive reasons.

The key takeaway though, that I want everyone to enjoy, is that I was messing with the other players’ heads! This is now the 4th level of complexity to a very simple system! I assume, that they think that I am 100% aggressive. I want to plant some doubt in their mind. I see an opportunity to plant that doubt. The score is 4-0, our favor. I can afford to take a chance,aka pay for insurance. (I am an insurance agent. Don’t buy insurance unless you can afford it). I have a biddable hand, but a justifiable passing hand. My thought? Screw them up! In my mind, it worked! What do they think now? “That crazy Richardb02. What is he up to? I better not pigeon hole him too much, as super aggressessive, he will change his tactics!” I enjoy responding to this post! It messes with their heads even more!!

Now having said this, I have found 100% aggressive players on WoCG (World of Card Games)! They are NOT what I call smart players. They are 100% aggressive. My “Elo”, Rank is now 1816. I am in the top 10! For full disclosure the I have been up and down 300 points 2 times and 200 points 2 times!! So today’s success is no support for tomorrow’s ranking! BUT, I know the aggressive players from the smart players. If you play at WoCG and I am back to 1500 please mark me as smart, not aggressive! LOL!

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Thu May 21, 2020 1:19 pm

I’m guessing the question as to whether you pass in hopes of setting up your opponents, or calling is as old as euchre itself. There are no easy answers. There are many different factors to consider. The score, opponents bidding history, and even that feeling card players get in their gut that may the time to pass. While I don’t have the complete solution, I have found that passing, in hopes of a euchre, works best first round, first seat with an aggressive player dealing. Even there, it only seems to be about 50/50.

But the reason I posted these hands was to get other options on the subject. This is how we become better players.

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:46 pm

I don't think I can add anything more to this thread. Edward's post is sufficient to me but I'll add my 2 cents given the low posting traffic around here :)

My general mantra in these kind've spots is: Never call marginal when you have all suits blocked. The theoretical cost of a euchre is at its highest point when you have a strong defensive holding that blocks all loners. In these situations one needs to tighten up their calling frequency. Conversely, the theoretical cost of a euchre is close to it's lowest point when you block no suits and thusly in those situations one should feel impelled to call very loosely.

So let's look at Richard's holding in the 1 seat after the KC has been turned down:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_Q-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_J-H)

If Richard had to call here he should call Next. IME calling Next with Left + 1 and an off ace + no voids is a marginal holding. One should expect their euchre frequency to go up significantly when they make this type of call. Is the risk worth it? I would answer with an emphatic no! Look back at Richard's hand. Not only does he have all suits blocked, he even has a euchre hand--albeit a weak euchre hand--with approx 2 tricks in every suit. Again, I pose the question: why call marginal when you have such a strong holding if you pass? One should save their marginal calls for hands that block nothing or don't have reverse next fully blocked. That's what marginal S1-R2 calls are for.

What actually happened in the hand is kind of a bad beat. Seat 2 has a hand that is very close to the top of his range in this spot and subsequently his teams gets a relatively stress free point. But focusing on the results is missing the bigger picture. Think about how wide S2's calling range will be in that spot, and then think about how S1's team will do against that wide range given S1's strong holding.

Ok now let's look at Edward's S2 holding after the dealer turned down the KC:

(Card_A-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-C)

Here Edward has a very strong euchre hand. Not only does he have all suits blocked, but he has approx 3 tricks in a heart call and a Next call. Edward has approx 2 tricks in a diamond call. Yeah Edward could call hearts here--a solid call certainly--but it's still no world beater. Ed still only has 2 trump and no voids and only 1 off ace. It's a good hand but not a great hand. With such a strong euchre hand I'd much rather pass. And by passing in this spot Ed gains in 3 different ways:

1) He can trap S3--a very agressive player--into a euchre.

2) Those times S3 passes, the dealer will call a hand that is more likely to line up with Edward's holding than had Edward called himself. No matter what the dealer calls he can't miss lining up with Edwards hand, but if Edward calls he can easily "guess" wrong.

3) Another small but underrated benefit to passing this holding is the fact that once Edward passes there is only 1 team that can get a 4 point sweep. His team. There's value in that and that value goes up with teams that know how to read hands well.

Here's an example of good hand reading.

Score is 0-0. The dealer passes the upcard (Card_Q-D), my clone in S1 then passes, and S2 also passes and I'm in S3 with:

(Card_J-S) (Card_10-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_Q-H)

or I have:

(Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-D)

What should I do?????

In both cases I should go alone in Clubs!!! Why becuz when my clone passes in S1 he will always have reverse Next blocked thus taking key cards out of the equation that turn my marginal loners into power houses (S1 is not guaranteed to have Next blocked as that is not his job defensively speaking so that's why S3 should not go alone in Next in the 2nd hand).

Now back to Edward's hand: when Edward passes in the 2 seat in that spot there's a very good chance he has all suits blocked and the dealer can astutely use that information to his and his team's advantage by going alone a little weaker than normal. Think L+1+2 off ace type holdings, etc.

Now in the actual hand S3 makes a thin but good diamond call--the suit Edward was the weakest in--and ekes a point through. Another bad beat as far as I'm concerned. One should not let the results of the hand cloud their judgement. Sh** happens sometimes, but Edward made a good strong pass for the right reasons.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:39 pm

Great information Wes, but as usual Dlan, Don Bunn, explains it for our average reader. Passing a biddable hand IS NOT a good strategy!

Unless you are a super-star, please understand that ordering aggressively, is the best strategy. The examples, in this thread, are aggressive but aggressive-defensive. And just like a Playing for a safety in football, we can play for a 2 point euchre! We pass because we have advantages to stop our opponents! So it is aggressive play! It is aggressive because we are maximizing out defensive advantage! That sounds like a contradiction. And until you understand the ebb and flow from aggressive ordering to aggressive passing, it is a difficult concept.

In the meantime, enjoy the wonderful game of Euchre. It is simple and yet as complex as you want to enjoy it’s complexity! In the same way, enjoy the lessons on Ohio Euchre. Enjoy the simpler discussions on the Beginner and Casual Player Forum on OE. Find the level at which you enjoy the game. Visit the General Euchre discussion when you want to elevate your game to the best!

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