2 trumps plus two aces

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EuchrePlayer
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2 trumps plus two aces

Post by EuchrePlayer » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:40 pm

The guidelines at ohioeuchre.com suggest that a player should bid from dealer or first seat if they have any two trumps plus two aces, for me this fails almost all of the time.
Should the aces be only in green and singleton? And should the trumps include a bower?
I need your advice



irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:23 pm

I don't think that is true in general. It all Depends on situation and the score.

From the dealer seat, S4: You have five cards, if one of the aces and the trailer is in next, Pass. If one is ace in next singleton, trump is two middle trumps okay to call. This also depends on your partner as well.

From S1, eldest, if two trumps and two aces in next of any size, I would call. Depending on your partner even one trump and two aces but you have to lead trump. However, crossing suit with two trumps, even with two aces is asking for trouble. It also depends on the opponents if they heavily bag on next or does S2 pass a lot, etc.

Thus, there is no guarantee as this is a 'marginal hand'. It boils down to, can you afford a euchre (like away head in score)?

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Post by RedDuke » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:39 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:23 pm
I don't think that is true in general. It all Depends on situation and the score.

From the dealer seat, S4: You have five cards, if one of the aces and the trailer is in next, Pass. If one is ace in next singleton, trump is two middle trumps okay to call. This also depends on your partner as well.

From S1, eldest, if two trumps and two aces in next of any size, I would call. Depending on your partner even one trump and two aces but you have to lead trump. However, crossing suit with two trumps, even with two aces is asking for trouble. It also depends on the opponents if they heavily bag on next or does S2 pass a lot, etc.

Thus, there is no guarantee as this is a 'marginal hand'. It boils down to, can you afford a euchre (like away head in score)?
Agree with Irish on this one. S1 - call if you've got 2 trumps in next and two side aces. From dealer, it's a lot more questionable since your partner probably doesn't have a lot of strength in the turn color (exception - you're holding a jack+matching ace and an off ace then definitely call it).

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Post by EuchrePlayer » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:55 am

From dealers seat most of the time I have to cut with one Trump then throw other Trump to clear a round of trumps which is over trumped by opponents, then hope someone will lead a suit in which I have aces, this rarely happens

Secondly from first seat if I have two small trumps plus singleton ace of next and a doubleton green ace which card should I lead

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:49 am

As the dealer, ask yourself what would happen if I were to pass? In a completive game, many calls are made on marginal hands. Winning means taking chances.

Here is a call from s1
https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

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Post by irishwolf » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:22 am

Yes, in deed, an interesting hand and the correct call by S1 to make Next. Many players will not call Next with one trump or no trump! Instead, will cross the suit an euchred.

So I am curious as to what is the justification to not play the Right bower to the first trick? (It would be totally different with the Left.) One you just gave away one trump and the opportunity to win another while only winning one trick. Two, it allowed the enemy to lead what off suit they most desire? Three, your diamonds never got into the action, force S3 to use a trump (win the trick and lead the QD, S3 may trust the the trick). Where is the supporting statistical justification?

In some situations, it may even be better to win the trick and lead trump again?

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:01 am

Every forum needs those that use a confrontation and oppositional style to keep things interesting.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:14 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:22 am
So I am curious as to what is the justification to not play the Right bower to the first trick? (It would be totally different with the Left.) One you just gave away one trump and the opportunity to win another while only winning one trick. Two, it allowed the enemy to lead what off suit they most desire? Three, your diamonds never got into the action, force S3 to use a trump (win the trick and lead the QD, S3 may trust the the trick). Where is the supporting statistical justification?

In some situations, it may even be better to win the trick and lead trump again?
We don't even need to appeal to statistical support in this case to prove that playing the Right on the first lead is the best play. We can simply note the logic behind playing under and then note how it collapses!

The logic behind playing under is to make sure S2's Right bower does not fall on the same trick as S4's Left those times S4 has an unguarded Left. But in this spot S4 can never have an unguarded Left! S2 has a good aggressive partner (Richard) who doesn't pass R+1 when he doesn't have all suits blocked. Since Richard passed on the King of clubs upcard he can never have the Jack of clubs, the Left, except when he passed a hand that has all suits blocked, but then in that special case when Richard has the Left it will always be guarded! Since Richard can never have an unguarded Left, S2 not playing the Right on the opening lead can only hurt his team!

What about in this particular hand, did playing under actually hurt S2's team? I would say the answer is yes! If S2 plays the Right on the first lead, and then leads the Ace of diamonds, his opponents will only get the point IF S3 correctly leads the Left on trick 3. If S3 leads the AC instead on trick 3, his team is euchred. So by playing the Right on the first lead, S2 has forced S3 to play perfectly to get the point. Any time you force the enemy to play perfectly you win becuz sometimes humans make mistakes!

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Post by irishwolf » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:27 pm

Now Don, your forum and website: I was not trying to keep things interesting or oppositional. I asked a honest question and your response was nonsensical. You can't get to the truth without analyzing why people play the way they do. Of course we all as I have said, cannot play perfect euchre. But we can review how we play, can we not?

You did not give a logical response for underplaying. I find underplaying is okay with less than average players who will think the right is buried and lead trump again. That for beginners.

Both bowers are not going to fall when the dealer should have made trump if he had the JC. So scratch that reason. It was remarkable that S3 had 3 trumps. If you win the first trick and lead Diamonds, who knows what could have occurred, statistically?

"Every forum needs those that use a confrontation and oppositional style to keep things interesting."

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:07 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:27 pm


Both bowers are not going to fall when the dealer should have made trump if he had the JC. So scratch that reason. It was remarkable that S3 had 3 trumps. If you win the first trick and lead Diamonds, who knows what could have occurred, statistically?
That question doesn't come down to statistics tho, but rather how well S3 plays. If S3 plays well he'll know that the correct line is to lead the Left on trick 3 before he leads his off ace. I.E. get the point and run! Additionally, if S3 reads hands well he'll also know that his P called with one trump and now has none left. S3 has the L-K-Q and S1 led the Ace of trump. If S1 had a lower trump than the Ace, like a T or a 9, he would've led that instead. So S3, with the help of his own cards, can easily deduce on the first lead that the Ace of trump is all S1 has.

Incidentally, I was in this EXACT spot in my Thursday tournament earlier this year and my P led her off ace on trick 3 instead of the Left first, and we got euchred. I didn't say a word cuz I can't control the universe and was ready for the next hand, but she was smart enough to figure it out and admitted she played the hand wrong. I was impressed since the usual response is "WTF P YOU CALLED WITH ONE TRUMP!?!?"

Edit: Nvm, by statistically you were talking about this spot in general and not this exact hand obviously. My bad. I'll let my post stand anyways, even tho I misread what you were saying.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:19 pm

So Don, I do not want to be labelled as such, I only thought I was trying to shed light on expert play. SO WITH THAT, I BID THEE FAREWELL! As the Irish say, MAY THE WIND BE ALWAYS AT YOUR BACK!

"Every forum needs those that use a confrontation and oppositional style to keep things interesting.
Top "

~IRISHWOLF

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri May 08, 2020 8:24 pm

EuchrePlayer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:40 pm
The guidelines at ohioeuchre.com suggest that a player should bid from dealer or first seat if they have any two trumps plus two aces, for me this fails almost all of the time.
Should the aces be only in green and singleton? And should the trumps include a bower?
I need your advice
From the dealer spot my general strategy is to always call with two trump + two aces--no matter what my 2 trump are--if I don't block all suits.

Yes that means I'm calling hearts as the dealer if my hand is this:

(Card_A-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S)

Yes it's a marginal call that will get euchred more than you like, but when you block no suits the cost of passing will also be higher than normal. So the thinking here is you'll still turn a profit even with a higher euchre rate when you factor in the higher cost of passing. That's the theory but it's not proven until someone actually tests this out by simulating this spot. To date, that has not happened.

Here's an article on another marginal 2 trump + 2 ace call from the dealer spot:

http://members.tripod.com/~Borf_Books/e ... m#leadvol2

An example of a 2 trump + 2 ace hand you would pass as the dealer:

Upcard is (Card_10-H), and you have:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_K-S)

Here you have a powerful euchre hand. All suits blocked & and approx 2 tricks in every suit. Never call marginal and fight for a point when you have a powerful euchre hand if you pass.

What about if you have a hand like this:

Same upcard (Card_10-H), and you now have:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C)

If you strictly follow my advice you would order this up given that you don't block all suits as you don't have Spades covered. But what if S1 aggressively calls Next. Maybe it's best to take a chance and pass this hand to trap S1. It is hard to say without the math but I would never argue against anyone proposing a pass in that situation.

Moving on to S1, first round. Well first recognize that that's a wholly different animal than ordering up from the dealer position. From S1, now youre giving the enemy 1 trump and a chance to create a void. This is an advantage that you need to respect. To give you an idea how much you should respect that, if you never ordered from S1, first rd with just 2 trump (excluding donation spots) you'd be playing correctly probably over 95% of the time. You gotta play tight from S1 especially if you have a 2nd round option to fall back on.

An example:

Upcard is the (Card_A-H), assume score is 0-0, and you're in S1 with:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C)

I would not order that up. You have a very good Next call with 2 trump + 2 aces (the Kh is effectively an Ace in the 2nd rd). I would actually recommend going alone in Next. Point being, with a viable path in the 2nd round you should pass in the first round trying to trap the dealer's team.

But what about when you have a hand like this:

Upcard is the (Card_9-H), score is 0-0, and you have:

(Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_Q-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_A-S)

Now you could pass and trap again, and call Next if the dealer passes with 1 trump and two off aces. That's not a bad strategy. But a heart call here might be better even tho you are giving the opposing team a trump and a void. The gap in strength between your better heart call vs your more marginal Next call might be large enough to overcome the advantage of trapping in the first round. IDK, it's hard to say without real data to look at, but I do think calling hearts with this hand is defensible. What's most important in this spot is to recognize that you can't Pass-pass in this spot. Given that you don't block reverse next, you need to make a move, call in the first rd or call in the 2nd.

Also keep in mind that at 9-9, hearts is unequivocally better than trapping with the intention of calling next becuz you don't gain anything from a euchre. So at 9-9 in the first rd, you simply call with your best hand assuming of course that you have a hand worth calling to begin with. Outside of certain donates, I almost never call in the first round from S1 with 2 trump. The above hand type I just went over, and certain other hands in 9-9 scenarios are the notable exceptions.

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Post by Richardb02 » Sun May 10, 2020 12:31 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:24 pm
EuchrePlayer wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:40 pm
The guidelines at ohioeuchre.com suggest that a player should bid from dealer or first seat if they have any two trumps plus two aces, for me this fails almost all of the time.
Should the aces be only in green and singleton? And should the trumps include a bower?
I need your advice
From the dealer spot my general strategy is to always call with two trump + two aces--no matter what my 2 trump are--if I don't block all suits.

Yes that means I'm calling hearts as the dealer if my hand is this:

(Card_A-D) (Card_9-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-S)

Yes it's a marginal call that will get euchred more than you like, but when you block no suits the cost of passing will also be higher than normal. So the thinking here is you'll still turn a profit even with a higher euchre rate when you factor in the higher cost of passing. That's the theory but it's not proven until someone actually tests this out by simulating this spot. To date, that has not happened.
I agree that this is a weak hand but it is not on the edge. The aces are a strength in this hand. My BPS eval:
0.50 R1 S4
0.25 Th
0.25 9h
0.50 Ad
0.75 As
0.25 1 Void, clubs
2.50 vs. 2.00 minimum to order
____ A relatively simple calculation backs up that the player comes out ahead by winning 2 out of 3 orders. Unfortunately that means that if you accept this reality, you will lose 1 out of 3 orders on an “edge” hand. Most players fear being euchred more than losing the game. So they will not order unless they have extra strong hands. Their more aggressive opponents bid the relatively weaker, but still positive scoring hands and win more often.
____Using the BPS and some simple assumptions and math, I estimate that this hand is 2 factors stronger than an edge hand, has a 73% chance of taking at lease 1 point. That means I would roughly lose 1 out of 4 hands. So that is well above my minimum of 65-67% edge expected winning minimum./color]

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:24 pm

Here's an article on another marginal 2 trump + 2 ace call from the dealer spot:

http://members.tripod.com/~Borf_Books/e ... m#leadvol2

An example of a 2 trump + 2 ace hand you would pass as the dealer:

Upcard is (Card_10-H), and you have:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_K-S)

Here you have a powerful euchre hand. All suits blocked & and approx 2 tricks in every suit. Never call marginal and fight for a point when you have a powerful euchre hand if you pass.
I absolutely agree with Wes. BPS-Basic is not powerful enough to quantify the reason. That is one of the reasons the Uber-players dislike point systems. Systems have limitations. Uber-players’ analysis goes beyond basic analysis. So to keep up with them I use what I call BPS-Advanced. To analyze this hand I look at Jacks and Aces in addition to the points of the R1 hand. Jacks and Aces are easily counted and are the building blocks of “Euchre Hands” and “Blocking Hands.” This analysis leads me to devalue my R1 hand below the value needed to order. So I pass. I am not changing BPS on a whim, I am simply expanding BPS to account for the additional Euchre wisdom I have found on the OE Forum.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:24 pm

What about if you have a hand like this:

Same upcard (Card_10-H), and you now have:

(Card_A-D) (Card_J-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_10-C)

If you strictly follow my advice you would order this up given that you don't block all suits as you don't have Spades covered. But what if S1 aggressively calls Next. Maybe it's best to take a chance and pass this hand to trap S1. It is hard to say without the math but I would never argue against anyone proposing a pass in that situation.

I agree you should order. I estimate an 81% chance of success. Once I reach 80% (3-4 factors stronger than my edge hand), I have no qualms ordering. But, I count cards, so I know that it took a strong, adversely distributed hand to beat me. (If I was losing to average hands, BPS would need to be adjusted or discarded). If I was beat because opponents had exceptionally good cards, then it is easy for me to “forget about it” and focus on the next hand. If I am playing at the top of my game (usually meaning less alcohol, LOL), I would see strong Jacks and Aces, but no protection against an order in spades. So, the value of Jacks and Aces does not rise to the level required for me to pass.

Wes’ thought about passing to trap an aggressive player who would order up a weak Next, points out philosophical differences between us. Wes thinks that he can get into your head. He plays 5 to 10 times more games than I play. So he may well get into his opponents’ heads!

I have to simplify. I see players at 3 levels. Weak, Strong and Aggressive Bid, Poor Play. A weak player is also an erratic player, aka a dumb player. You don’t know how they are going to respond. So I apply minimal adjustments to playing against them. Against Aggressive Bid, Poor Play opponents I have a bigger adjustment towards me ordering less aggressively. I look for Euchre opportunities. Wes’ post is focused on a strong player. They are also a smart player. I adjust, but not as strongly as Wes, because the smart opponent will mix up how they play in certain situations! Dlan (Don Bunn the creator of Ohio Euchre) is a maestro at mixing up his responses.

I posted philosophical thinking to offer readers some guidance. You came to ohioeuchre.com to improve your play at Euchre. To improve your game you must devote time to improving your game. I suggest that you devote about 1/3 of your total Euchre time to improving your game with OE lessons and the forum. Let’s assume that you play 6 hours a week, about 200 hands per month. Devote 2 hours a week to improving your game. Yes, you will play less games but win more. That is what I did and even with many restraints on my time, I have greatly improved my play. I simply and philosophically adjust my approach to the time that I am willing to devote to Euchre. Wes is chasing the mythical GOAT (Greatest of All Time) award in Euchre. So he devotes an immense amount of time to improve his game. But I suggest that at least 1/3rd of that is analysis of games and researching other sources of Euchre wisdom. Your mission is to proportionately do what works with your life. Simply stated, almost all players need to spend more time learning and less time playing.

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:24 pm

Moving on to S1, first round.

The factors considered when ordering from S1 and S4 ordering are very,very different. I am just a simple man. So let’s stop here and focus 100% on 2 Trump and 2 Aces from S1.

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