OE WEEKLY 3/30 HOW WOULD YOU PLAY THIS HAND

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irishwolf
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OE WEEKLY 3/30 HOW WOULD YOU PLAY THIS HAND

Post by irishwolf » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:46 pm

Here is hand that I question should have been played different. How would you play it (10:39) on 3/30.

KD UP CARD DEALER (S4) MAKES TRUMP 10:39

What is the best way to play this hand and why?

The questions are this should S4 win the trick and lead the JD followed by the JC (best man)?

Should S4 play as is?

Or should S4 let his partner have the trick?

S1 TC 9C AH 9H QS
S2 KC TS QD AD JS
S3 QC 9D TH JH KH
S4 AC JC KS JD KD



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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:58 pm

Needing one point for the win, here is the situation as seen from the dealer’s viewpoint.

Image

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:28 am

Okay, from the Dealer (S4) then why do you think this was the best move to achieve ONE point. What about the questions as posed?

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:32 am

Man I'm not sure what's best here. What I usually do here is take the trick with the AC, send the Right, then Send the boss JC. The only time that line does not get a guaranteed point is when one of your opponents started with 3 trump or both your opponents have 2+ trump each.

I'm not against Don's line. Maybe it's better IDK. What I will say is once Don takes the trick with the AC and sends the JC that too me is a signal to S2 to trump high if he can, so IMO S2 should put his AD on the dealer's boss JC lead.

I'm certainly interested in what you think is the best line in this spot Irishwolf. If you disagree with my approach it wouldn't take much to convert me to your camp.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:26 am

Well, he won the point but there are other ways. I have used the second lead but not when the second lead is the best man squeezing my partner. So to your question I am proposing below (OCD - I suppose). I don't like 2nd leads unless well thought out. I also think holding the right back is not always a good option. It is obvious a lead of trump is needed asap how ever that comes about.

WES said, "I'm certainly interested in what you think is the best line in this spot Irishwolf. If you disagree with my approach it wouldn't take much to convert me to your camp."

I contend you have far more options and work as a team when you let your partner win the trick.
So let’s look at the three options as proposed in the questions:
I. Dealer wins the trick with the AC and leads the JC. Obviously, he wants his partner to trump the “JC” which is the best man. It would be different if he led a lower club with the best man still out, the JC. But that is not the case here. We will leave that for a different tactic for discussion. In the scenario, there are five unknown trumps to the dealer (9D 10D QD AD JH). The help only comes with the JH or AD. These are good players so S1 is going to lay off the trick and this is not like playing average skilled players. A lower trumps if used is just a waste that will get over trumped. Statistically, there is a ~50% S2 has neither, so S3 could win the trick with a low trump. However, look at it this way, actually only the AD with S2 is the real help when leading the JC as it will force the JH if S3 has it. That is a low probability, 28%. I suggest the statistical aspects are being ignored.
So what can go wrong with this option? There is a whole subset of hands that can result in a euchre. So S2 has no trump, and S3 wins the trick with a low trump and now has AS doubleton and S1 has AD or JH results in a euchre. There are many more than ways to get euchred than options II and III. So READ on!

II. Second option, Dealer wins the trick with the AC and now leads the JD followed by the JC. I contend a better option than above. An opponent now trumps the JC but S2 leaves it alone if he has two trumps. With five unknown, one opponent will have two but the dealer still has the KD with the KS and one void in hearts. Not bad at all. For an opponent to have three trumps of five is less that 10% (with two opponents is is doubled). If an opponent has three and an ace he probably would have ordered. You need some help but could win the 3rd trick with the KD as your KS is not much help. I contend this is a better option but does it really optimize your options? Let’s move on to the next option.

III. Okay, S4 lets his partner win the trick. This allows for playing as a partnership is my contention as the dealer does not have a guaranteed point the way it was played. You need help and this is a better way to get that needed help. There are now many options for help if you let S2 win the trick with the KC. Let’s explore a few:
a. S2 now sorts his hand as best how to proceed. If he has the Left he can lead it. Point is made and this has advantages of the left and right not falling on the same trick and you take the opponents trumps without expending the right. He can also then lead an ace, AS or AH if he has it.
b. S2 can lead a low trump to the JD and this then follows option II above. If he has the AS or AH and a trump he could lead the ace first then the trump. Or if that gets trumped and has a void in the other suit, trump it with any size trump. Just more options.
c. If S2 after winning the trick has no trump but the AS or AH, he now leads it and S4 gets rid of the KS. If he has no aces and leads a heart, S4 can trump it and still has the right for his third trick.

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:44 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:26 am
Well, he won the point but there are other ways. I have used the second lead but not when the second lead is the best man squeezing my partner. So to your question I am proposing below (OCD - I suppose). I don't like 2nd lead unless well thought out. I also think holding the right back is not always a good option. It is obvious a lead a trump is needed asap how ever that comes about.

I contend you have far more options and work as a team when you let your partner win the trick.
So let’s look at the three options as proposed in the questions:
I. Dealer wins the trick with the AC and leads the JC. Obviously, he wants his partner to trump the “JC” which is the best man. It would be different if he led a lower club with the best man still out, the JC. But that is not the case here. We will leave that for a different tactic. In the scenario, there are five unknown trumps to the dealer (9D 10D QD AD JH). The help only comes with the JH or AD. These are good players so S1 is going to lay off the trick and this is not like playing average skilled players. A lower trumps if used is just a waste that will get over trumped. Statistically, there is a ~50% S2 has neither, so S3 could win the trick with a low trump. However, look at it this way, actually only the AD with S2 is the real help when leading the JC as it will force the JH if S3 has it. That is a low probability, 28%. I suggest the statistical aspects are being ignored.
So what can go wrong with this option? There is a whole subset of hands that can result in a euchre. So S2 has no trump, and S3 wins the trick with a low trump and now has AS doubleton and S1 has AD or JH results in a euchre. There are many more than ways to get euchred than options II and III. So READ on!
Good Stuff IW. I agree, taking the first trick with the AC and leading the JC is not a ploy that's really gonna help you much vs good players. For example if S1 even has an unguarded Left or just the Ace of trump, if he's good he'll know to lay off on the JC lead to prevent the maker from setting up a game winning end play. I'm convinced now that this line cannot be the best line. If a good team has the cards to euchre the maker, this line is very unlikely to stop them.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:26 am
II. Second option, Dealer wins the trick with the AC and now leads the JD followed by the JC. I contend a better option than above.
I agree.
irishwolf wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:26 am
An opponent now trumps the JC but S2 leaves it alone if he has two trumps. With five unknown, one opponent will have two but the dealer still has the KD with the KS and one void in hearts. Not bad at all. For an opponent to have three trumps of five is less that 10% (with two opponents is is doubled). If an opponent has three and an ace he probably would have ordered. You need some help but could win the 3rd trick with the KD as your KS is not much help. I contend this is a better option but does it really optimize your options? Let’s move on to the next option.

III. Okay, S4 lets his partner win the trick. This allows for playing as a partnership is my contention as the dealer does not have a guaranteed point the way it was played. You need help and this is a better way to get that needed help. There are now many options for help if you let S2 win the trick with the KC. Let’s explore a few:
a. S2 now sorts his hand as best how to proceed. If he has the Left he can lead it. Point is made and this has advantages of the left and right not falling on the same trick and you take the opponents trumps without expending the right. He can also then lead an ace, AS or AH if he has it.
b. S2 can lead a low trump to the JD and this then follows option II above. If he has the AS or AH and a trump he could lead the ace first then the trump. Or if that gets trumped and has a void in the other suit, trump it with any size trump. Just more options.
c. If S2 after winning the trick has no trump but the AS or AH, he now leads it and S4 gets rid of the KS. If he has no aces and leads a heart, S4 can trump it and still has the right for his third trick.

~Irishwolf
I'm convinced you're right. If you can trust your partner to make good decisions, I.E. if you have a strong partner, I'm strongly convinced now that letting S2 take the trick is indeed the best line here. The bonus aspect of the Right and the Left never colliding with this line as you pointed out is something I failed to initially appreciate. Very good post.

irishwolf
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:46 pm

So now this comment is for ALL THOSE EUCHRE players out there that want to how to improve their game. I am not suggesting you have to accept my commentary but do evaluate it or other posts you think of value. If you find you have been playing in a certain manner for many games or years, your style becomes "HARD WIRED" and automatic. If you want to change it, it takes a lot of work to "RE-PROGRAM" yourself. Just reading will not do it, guaranteed! You will revert back to old habits as practice makes "permanent" not necessarily perfect for old ploys and tactics.

If you are happy with your ways for social pleasure, that is your choice, Roll On! However, if you see a potential different approach, then the way to change if you desire to make a change you have to first convince yourself a change is needed. You do this by taking the new element and experiment with it. Deal yourself the hand under consideration, usually six known cards and eighteen unknown cards. Now deal out hands that realistically represent the challenge hands for the opposition and play them out. This helps to re-program yourself and it is work if you want to make the change. This is called "deliberate practice" and is at least as important in your journey to become a very good euchre player or any other task you want to excel in.

I would much rather take any new player to the game and teach them the fundamentals than a player who has been playing many games.

Anyway enough rambling, just some comments from my perspective. Euchre is in my DNA and my family has played this great game tracing it back to the Civil War days.

~Irishwolf

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