Impromptu games 3-27 - Giving correct info to your partner 1

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Wes (aka the legend)
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Re: Impromptu Online Euchre game today at 9pmEst/8Cst/6pmpst

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:25 pm

A hand I misplayed last night:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

A simple hand reading problem: If my P had 3 trump he would've shown me. He did not, therefore he only had 2 trump and he's out. Given that my P is out of trump and there is still one trump left in the wild I must send the Right on the 3rd trick. I did not, and my mistake ended up costing my team a point.



Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:51 pm

Here's that one controversial hand I played where I lead the King from an A-K set:

https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

As far as my reasoning I will quote verbatim what I emailed to Edward last night:
Ok, I call super marginal becuz I only block 1 out of 3 suits in the 2nd round (I would've also called your hand BTW). My offsuit Ace as you notice is super dirty, but I got 2 trump and 2 voids so maybe some magic can happen, and the cost of passing a hand that only blocks 1 out of 3 second rd suits is hopefully high enough to make my euchres in the spot theoretically not that costly.

Ok so I use my last trump on the 3rd trick lead and take the trick. We now have 2 tricks and we need one more. If my Ac doesn't go we're probably toast, and Don just potentially short suited himself in clubs on the 3rd trick. In my mind I gotta play the hand to trick Don to play off if he has the boss trump, the Left. BTW after this action Don is the most likely to have the Left. You're not that likely to have the Left given that you passed and you already played 1 trump. IW isn't that likely to have the Left becuz there's a decent chance he would've led it on the 3rd trick. So I lead the Kc instead of the Ac, and of course a horrible parlay had to happen. You had to have the Ace of trump and IW had to have the Left.

I'm still not convinced I played it wrong. You know I don't lead the King from an A-K set for no good reason. You know the last thing I ever wanna do is trick my P, but I really think the situation called for it. Again, Don just potentially voided himself in clubs and he's the most likely to have the Left.
I'm not saying my play was correct, although I think it's defensible. Just letting you guys know what was going through my mind at the time.

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Dlan
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Post by Dlan » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:55 pm


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Post by Dlan » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:10 pm

Guess I shoulda checked first. :) MY thoughts are this, one can't expect a partner to make the correct play with bad information.

The only time I could see it being correct would be in a hand such as this

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Where hearts are trump, you have taken the first trick and need your partner for the second.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:09 pm

DON,
Yes I agree, but there is more here. I have aces, so of course regardless of what you hold, I am leading trump. If I did not have aces, I would not have led. And if I had lower trump than the King I would have played it on the 1st trick. I played the AH first, the QH and 9H fell to the 2nd trick. Another lead of trump would not hurt me and it would have allow me to then slough the AC so you know I have the KC. Even the TD would have been a good lead.

"A simple hand reading problem: If my P had 3 trump he would've shown me. He did not, therefore he only had 2 trump and he's out. Given that my P is out of trump and there is still one trump left in the wild I must send the Right on the 3rd trick. I did not, and my mistake ended up costing my team a point."

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:21 pm

Not sure about your assumptions. If Don had the AH or JD he would have gone over your QH instead of slough the JC as he could not afford to let you have that trick, IMO. Strange hand, I had three spades and did not lead the other Jack because I need help with S1 behind, he might have the AH. If I lead the Jack and S4 has 3 trumps my spade lead is toast. I thought S2 did not order so figuring he would have if he had two hearts and AS (he had nothing to stop next). Oh well!

" If my Ac doesn't go we're probably toast, and Don just potentially short suited himself in clubs on the 3rd trick. In my mind I gotta play the hand to trick Don to play off if he has the boss trump, the Left. BTW after this action Don is the most likely to have the Left."

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:02 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:21 pm
Not sure about your assumptions. If Don had the AH or JD he would have gone over your QH instead of slough the JC as he could not afford to let you have that trick, IMO.
Ugh what the hell was I thinking, of course that's true! Which proves unequivocally I should've led the Ac!! I mean, that was probably always the case, but technically it was a math problem that still needed to be proven. Not any more. I should've easily deduced that Don was out of trump and therefore I wouldn't have overthought the situation and sent the KC to induce my partner to blow a trump.

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:21 pm
Strange hand, I had three spades and did not lead the other Jack because I need help with S1 behind, he might have the AH. If I lead the Jack and S4 has 3 trumps my spade lead is toast. I thought S2 did not order so figuring he would have if he had two hearts and AS (he had nothing to stop next). Oh well!
And BTW to be clear, I was never implying that you played the hand wrong. Just that since you already played the Right bower, there are hand combos where you would then send the Left, and since you didn't that suggests those specific hand combos are now not in your range. So you not playing the left in that spot does correlate with you not having the Left.

Either way, I messed up the hand and that's crystal clear now.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:04 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:09 pm
DON,
Yes I agree, but there is more here. I have aces, so of course regardless of what you hold, I am leading trump. If I did not have aces, I would not have led. And if I had lower trump than the King I would have played it on the 1st trick. I played the AH first, the QH and 9H fell to the 2nd trick. Another lead of trump would not hurt me and it would have allow me to then slough the AC so you know I have the KC. Even the TD would have been a good lead.

"A simple hand reading problem: If my P had 3 trump he would've shown me. He did not, therefore he only had 2 trump and he's out. Given that my P is out of trump and there is still one trump left in the wild I must send the Right on the 3rd trick. I did not, and my mistake ended up costing my team a point."
Honestly, the source of my screw up on that hand is I spaced out and forget what the upcard was. My brain wears down after about an hour on that site.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:09 am

Dlan wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:10 pm
The only time I could see it being correct would be in a hand such as this

(Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_9-C)

Where hearts are trump, you have taken the first trick and need your partner for the second.
Say we order up Hearts as the dealer, and S1 leads the Ace of spades and everyone follows suit and you trump in with your 9H. The standard line I take in that spot is to then lead the Right and then play the AC (unless my P shows void in trump on my JH lead, then I would obviously play the KC). Would you play this spot differently? Irishwolf how would you play this spot? I know how Edward would play it, the same as me. This is one of those spots I've always wondered about due to the tripleton nature of our off ace.

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Post by Dlan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:35 am

it would be interesting to see what the odds are as to whether playing the right (ace of hearts) or ace/king of clubs would give the maker the best chance of a successful call.

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