IS THIS A BIDDABLE HAND?

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irishwolf
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IS THIS A BIDDABLE HAND?

Post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:41 pm

Your side is up 5 to 0, the up card is 10D as the dealer you hold: JH TH KA AC 10C.
Do you make or Pass?



Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:43 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:41 pm
Your side is up 5 to 0, the up card is 10D as the dealer you hold: JH TH KA AC 10C.
Do you make or Pass?
I can't decipher the entire hand.

The upcard is the (Card_10-D)

You have: (Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

What's the other card?

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Sorry about that JH TH KS AC 10C - dealer. 10D up

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:04 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:49 pm
Sorry about that JH TH KS AC 10C - dealer. 10D up
I'm definitely calling with Left + 1 and an off ace as the dealer when I only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits, at 5-0 or at 0-0. This marginal hand scores often enough--plus the defensive utility of never allowing a black suit to shine from Seat 1--to be worth it imo. I'm fine if people disagree with me here at neutral scores, but passing that hand with a big lead like up 5-0 is criminal to me.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:13 pm

I agree also with your statement (thin but should. . .), I think I have two tricks. If they lead to my AC, I am then playing the 10C which I call as 'good as trump lead'. I want my partner to hit it hard. One of the few times of doing a 2nd lead. I would not do this if 2nd seat assisted but he did not. Trump will fall to this 2nd lead, many times 2 and even 3.

But more on this. What if I now, semi-bag, on next? What can happen then?

Wes said, "I'm definitely calling with Left + 1 and an off ace as the dealer when I only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits, at 5-0 or at 0-0. This marginal hand scores often enough--plus the defensive utility of never allowing a black suit to shine from Seat 1--to be worth it imo. I'm fine if people disagree with me here at neutral scores, but passing that hand with a big lead like up 5-0 is criminal to me."

~Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:35 pm

There is one more issue when you don't call at the dealer seat and do bag on Next? What occurs when eldest passes, and you have a partner will most likely call 'green'. You as dealer have basically taken yourself out of play when green is called. (That in fact occurred, resulting in a euchre, but we would have made a point had Diamonds were made trump as I had KD AD JS two low hearts.) This strategy then gets out out of Sync with your partner, not only for that hand but later as well.

So you can do at the dealer seat but must be sure next will be called. In the hand above if next is called, you can stop a march but doubtful to euchre the opponent. So why do it in the first place?

~Irishwolf

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:37 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:13 pm
I agree also with your statement (thin but should. . .), I think I have two tricks. If they lead to my AC, I am then playing the 10C which I call as 'good as trump lead'. I want my partner to hit it hard. One of the few times of doing a 2nd lead. I would not do this if 2nd seat assisted but he did not. Trump will fall to this 2nd lead, many times 2 and even 3.
Yep, I double lead clubs in that spot too. I strongly agree with that approach.
irishwolf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:13 pm
But more on this. What if I now, semi-bag, on next? What can happen then?
Against the vast majority of the euchre population you'll burn. Most people do not call Next. They simply bid if they have a real hand and pass if they don't. The real question is what if Seat 1 calls Next aggressively (arguably too aggressively). Someone like me IOW. Is it worth bagging on Next with your holding? I mean sure you'll get owned in Black and occasionally give up some Black loners sweeps, but that doesn't necessarily mean this strategy is wrong. Perhaps you'll euchre enough Next calls to make up for the points you lose on potential Seat 1 Black calls. Unfortunately this now becomes a math problem that can only be solved with that hypothetical euchre simulator.

jspectre
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Post by jspectre » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:28 pm

Up 5-0 and with an average partner, I'm always calling this spot. Now, give me a good partner who I can trust to make the right calls, and I'm passing here. I have next covered, and my partner is more likely to have strength in black than he does in red. In those rare circumstances where 1st is sitting on a black loner I just shrug it off, it's not something that happens consistently enough to go out of my way to avoid. There's been plenty of times here where my opponents held better hands in diamonds, and then got themselves euchred by trying to call next instead of just passing. I think it's still a biddable hand, but when I have next blocked I'm wary of calling with just 2 trump and ace, even if one is the left.

Tbolt65
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Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm

Against teams and players that make mistakes, yes. Against good players no. At different scores say like 9-x. Yes, vs anyone.

You can still have a possible euchre on a next call vs teams that call next heavily on weak holdings. You have An off Ace doubleton with a void in diamonds. I guarantee you the other team will have at least one diamond if they are a next leaning team.


Can you call this type sure, will you make "some" points? Sure. Will you get euchred, Definitely. You have to pick and choose spots to play aggressively like this. If you make this a standard play all the time I can most certainly guaranteed you. You will get exploited by the good players/teams. You will be most definitely be giving away "free points" as I like to say.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:36 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
Against teams and players that make mistakes, yes. Against good players no. At different scores say like 9-x. Yes, vs anyone.


I think one has a right to be extremely skeptical of that claim. Even factoring in the theoretical extra cost of good players exploiting this call, we still have to weigh that cost against passing a hand that only blocks 1 out of the 3 remaining suits. It is anyone's guess which cost is higher. I'm betting the latter has the higher cost, therefore I'm not passing this hand. I mean, it's not like we have nothing here guys. We have Left+1+an off Ace.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
Can you call this type sure, will you make "some" points? Sure. Will you get euchred, Definitely. You have to pick and choose spots to play aggressively like this. If you make this a standard play all the time I can most certainly guaranteed you. You will get exploited by the good players/teams. You will be most definitely be giving away "free points" as I like to say.

Tbolt65
Edward
Being exploited is not the end of the world. Sometimes opening yourself up to possibly being exploited is your best option. Sure, calling this hand could have a negative expected outcome, but it could be +EV compared to passing even vs good opponents. The notion that we're giving away "free points" here is a claim that can't be backed up. Either way, I still strongly believe passing this hand up 5-0 when we block only 1 out of 3 suits is poor play. But yeah, I can't back that up either, so I'll have to leave it at that.

Tbolt65
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Post by Tbolt65 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:57 am

I'm backing it up with my illustrious euchre playing career. I'm not say never to make this call. I'm saying. Don't make this call a standard play. It gives up way too many euchres. That's why you minimize the times you do call it. Once upon a time it was a standard call for me until I was repeatedly told not to do it anymore. I have since reduced my frequency of euchred hands. So it's not like I'm the only one who thought of this. Plus my play experience with both Shows me in the long run. It's a play that gives up too many euchres. I've learned to reduce the frequencies of making these kinds of calls.

Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:00 am

jspectre wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:28 pm
Up 5-0 and with an average partner, I'm always calling this spot. Now, give me a good partner who I can trust to make the right calls, and I'm passing here.
The nature of your partner should have no bearing in this spot unless they play so aggressively from the 2 spot, 1st rd that you are pretty certain they will have virtually no help if you call. Other than that, it's the quality of Seat 1 that maybe should influence your decision. If they call Next super aggressively then maybe it's worth passing this hand, but that type of player is quite rare. And like I said before, this becomes a math problem in any case.
jspectre wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:28 pm
I have next covered, and my partner is more likely to have strength in black than he does in red. In those rare circumstances where 1st is sitting on a black loner I just shrug it off, it's not something that happens consistently enough to go out of my way to avoid.
I find the notion that the dealer only has to worry about the Next suit misguided. The dealer is the last stop before the 2nd round commences. The dealer should feel a sense of responsibility to defend against all possible suits from Seat 1 as there is nothing stopping Seat 1 from having a strong black hand or a strong Next hand. Now the dealer can only do so much. The upcard still drives the action, and if you fight against the upcard too much you're going to get your team in trouble. But the dealer does have some wiggle room to play some defense, and since the dealer is the only thing separating his team from the enemy, he should feel obligated to utilize that wiggle room as much as he can, worrying about ALL suits he doesn't have covered.

Good examples of utilizing that wiggle room are calling with Right + 1 and nothing else when you don't block all suits or calling with Left + 1 + an off ace when you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits.

I also find it perplexing and inconsistent that people would call with this hand:

Upcard is (Card_9-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S)

But wanna pass with this hand:

Upcard is (Card_10-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

I mean really? You guys really think there's a big difference in strength between those marginal hands? Not me. To me they're both standard defensive calls that a good dealer has to make. I.E. -EO hands that are +EV overall due to the cost of passing being greater than the cost of calling.

If one is always calling with 3 trump but passing certain 2 trump hands that have equivalent strength to some of the 3 trump hands they call with then something's amiss.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:14 am

I would venture to say you will make a point 75% of the time going with diamonds. You pass, a good player at 1st seat may even have a loner in black. So I agree, you block 1 of 3 choices. And I am counting on my partner for a trick and give him that opportunity as well. Not good odds to pass here, can I afford a euchre, yes! To me this is a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Not to mention what happens when eldest passes. Now you have 2nd seat trying to out guess the cards when for sure he has to call green. You cannot afford to pass to 3rd seat. It really screws up the whole game.

Good players don't pass unless you have someone that ALWAYS CALLS NEXT. I seldom bag at the dealer seat, unless I know something!

~Irishwolf

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:05 am

It appears the dealer of the above hand in this discussion did NOT follow the instructions of Lesson 3 where it states:

General Rule #2) Bid if you're the dealer and you already hold one of the turn suit, plus a green Ace. Again, you will be able to create a void. On this hand you really need your partner's help. Be sure to give them a chance to take a trick. Or maybe even two.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:21 pm

Here's another way to look at it. If you're regularly picking up Right+1 and nothing else as the dealer when you block 2 out of 3 second round suits (which you should!) but you're passing Left+1+an off ace when you only block 1 out of 3 second round suits, you're not playing euchre as well as you think you are.

Richardb02
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Post by Richardb02 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:36 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:00 am

I also find it perplexing and inconsistent that people would call with this hand:

Upcard is (Card_9-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S)
BPS, takes into account almost all the comments made so far.
0.50 D4 R1
0.50 Qd
0.25 Td
0.25 9d
0.25 1 Void
0.50 3 trump, min value
2.25 BPS Points vs. 2.0 min pick up, 70% Success Rate
**Note, there is no help in Next or blocks in Reverse Next


But wanna pass with this hand:

Upcard is (Card_10-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

I mean really? You guys really think there's a big difference in strength between those marginal hands? Not me. To me they're both standard defensive calls that a good dealer has to make. I.E. -EO hands that are +EV overall due to the cost of passing being greater than the cost of calling.

If one is always calling with 3 trump but passing certain 2 trump hands that have equivalent strength to some of the 3 trump hands they call with then something's amiss.

0.50 D4 R1
0.75 Left
0.25 Td
0.50 Ac, Black Ax
0.25 1 Void
2.25 Exactly the same value as the previous hand, verifying Wes’ claim.

I’ll split hairs with Wes though, picking up is an offensive call. The simple EV is 70%x1 point- 30%x2 point= .70-.60= +.15. I’m making more points being offensive.

IrishWolf says 75%, I say 70%, that is strong agreement!

OE, Dlan, says Left, x and off suit A demands pick up. Yes.

BPS reflects OE and the wisdom from the forum.

Now, if D4 had 2 Jacks or 2 or more Aces in his hand, then the conversation would be different! We would be talking blocking hands, euchre hands, aces and BPS-Advanced.

Tbolt65
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Post by Tbolt65 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:19 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:36 am
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
Against teams and players that make mistakes, yes. Against good players no. At different scores say like 9-x. Yes, vs anyone.


I think one has a right to be extremely skeptical of that claim. Even factoring in the theoretical extra cost of good players exploiting this call, we still have to weigh that cost against passing a hand that only blocks 1 out of the 3 remaining suits. It is anyone's guess which cost is higher. I'm betting the latter has the higher cost, therefore I'm not passing this hand. I mean, it's not like we have nothing here guys. We have Left+1+an off Ace.

You place too much value or emphasis on dealer donating and hoping your partner can help out. Instead of passing once in a while and taking a chances where the players are a bit weaker. Sure there will be spots because score will dictate you need to make a call or it could really hurt your team if you pass, but not every time. By doing this it will help reduced unnecessary euchre's in giving away those "free points"
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
Can you call this type sure, will you make "some" points? Sure. Will you get euchred, Definitely. You have to pick and choose spots to play aggressively like this. If you make this a standard play all the time I can most certainly guaranteed you. You will get exploited by the good players/teams. You will be most definitely be giving away "free points" as I like to say.



Tbolt65
Edward
Being exploited is not the end of the world. Sometimes opening yourself up to possibly being exploited is your best option. Sure, calling this hand could have a negative expected outcome, but it could be +EV compared to passing even vs good opponents. The notion that we're giving away "free points" here is a claim that can't be backed up. Either way, I still strongly believe passing this hand up 5-0 when we block only 1 out of 3 suits is poor play. But yeah, I can't back that up either, so I'll have to leave it at that.
Yes it is. With that line of thinking you will be calling too much in situations that don't warrant it. Just because you think the cost of passing is too high but you are not taking other factors into consideration. What you may ask? Keep reading...…..by the end you should be able to understand. If you don't you then you don't. All I can do is pass what I have learned that was passed down to me. There is a time and a place for almost anything but too much of one thing is/can be bad. Its a balancing act basically.

To reiterate, If you make this a standard play all the time I can most certainly guaranteed you. You will get exploited by the good players/teams. You will be most definitely be giving away "free points" as I like to say.


Like I have already said. you can make this call just not all the time. Selective is the key word. The cost of passing vs the cost of calling is a guideline and not to be taken literally in all situations or all spots. I'll give you a good example here on a particular situation I use my better judgement vs. a player. Where I may normally may donate a hand I specifically take my chances and let it go based on his play. The player is Mark. Who specially doesn't go alone much so I pass hands and at scores where I normally may protect the lead. But in certain situations say like 9-6 or 9-7. Regardless I now have to order. I can no longer take that risk. The risk is now is too high. So here I adjust my play to allow myself to pass more in potential donating hands vs this kind of player but not pass so much where I then make a cruicial mistake. This thought process can be applied to ALL scenarios and situations.


This is my point entirely. Take chances when you can. Minimize your euchre's and play a balanced approach with out exposing yourself too much. Its not like Im such a passive player or I never take chances. I try to take smart gambles and risk at the right times. Are we all right all the time whenever anyone of us take chances? No. It goes the other way at times and we kick ourselves. That's the game. As long as we take the risks and know they are only that. That's fine but if we get too attached to it then can be a leak in ones game. It may be a small leak, It could be a big leak. But in the end, the little things make all the difference.




Tbolt65
Edward

Wes (aka the legend)
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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:14 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:19 am
You place too much value or emphasis on dealer donating and hoping your partner can help out.

On this we just have to agree to disagree. We've talked about this before. Bottom line is I think you're too passive as the dealer, and you think I'm too aggressive. I mean I'm very open to being wrong on any call, but without hard data, there's no where to go accept agree to disagree on this.

I do hate the term "dealer donating" tho. The hands I'm talking about are not near hopeless as the word "donation" would imply. To steal Natty Bumppo's words, it's more of "an offensive tactic with defensive overtones". And besides that, it is not clear AT ALL that the hand in question:

Upcard is the (Card_10-D), you're the dealer with

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

Is even a "dealer donate" at all. If Irishwolf's guesstimate (75% success rate) or Richard's guesstimate (70% success rate) is close to correct then we are talking about a hand that has a positive expectation EVEN IF you assume the cost of passing = zero!
Tbolt65 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:19 am
Instead of passing once in a while and taking a chances where the players are a bit weaker. Sure there will be spots because score will dictate you need to make a call or it could really hurt your team if you pass, but not every time. By doing this it will help reduced unnecessary euchre's in giving away those "free points"

I agree that if Seat 1 is a bad player one does not have to play as defensively from the dealer spot (we're only talking about a small group of hands here becuz the upcard still dictates the action, the dealer really can't do that much to begin with). Same goes for calling Next. If Seat 2 is a bad player, in theory one does not have to play as defensively either.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
Can you call this type sure, will you make "some" points? Sure. Will you get euchred, Definitely. You have to pick and choose spots to play aggressively like this. If you make this a standard play all the time I can most certainly guaranteed you. You will get exploited by the good players/teams. You will be most definitely be giving away "free points" as I like to say.
It goes both ways tho. It's a 'pick your poison' spot. We don't have definitive data proving the cost of calling on some of these marginals is greater than the cost of passing. What little evidence we have suggests (at least to me) that these thin calls are worth it, but I acknowledge that the evidence is still weak enough for rational people to reach separate conclusions. And yeah, I don't really care about getting euchred. That should be clear by now. I have one of the highest euchre rates on an app where around 10K people play per day, and I easily have the highest euchre rate in our Thursday tournament. All I care about is making the right play, doing what's best for my team.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
Like I have already said. you can make this call just not all the time. Selective is the key word. The cost of passing vs the cost of calling is a guideline and not to be taken literally in all situations or all spots.
Theoretically that is all that matters becuz math is the ultimate answer to any spot in question. The problem lies in the difficulty of quantifying it. Becuz we can't or don't have the tools to help us precisely quantify the cost of passing vs the cost of calling, there will always be room for disagreement.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
I'll give you a good example here on a particular situation I use my better judgement vs. a player. Where I may normally may donate a hand I specifically take my chances and let it go based on his play. The player is Mark. Who specially doesn't go alone much so I pass hands and at scores where I normally may protect the lead. But in certain situations say like 9-6 or 9-7. Regardless I now have to order. I can no longer take that risk. The risk is now is too high. So here I adjust my play to allow myself to pass more in potential donating hands vs this kind of player but not pass so much where I then make a cruicial mistake. This thought process can be applied to ALL scenarios and situations.
Of course, but the puzzle remains the same. It's still about the cost of passing vs the cost of calling with marginals even vs bad players. And math is still the ultimate answer. With bad players the cost of passing goes down, which in theory means we should tighten up our calling range a bit.
Tbolt65 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:48 pm
This is my point entirely. Take chances when you can. Minimize your euchre's and play a balanced approach with out exposing yourself too much. Its not like Im such a passive player or I never take chances. I try to take smart gambles and risk at the right times. Are we all right all the time whenever anyone of us take chances? No. It goes the other way at times and we kick ourselves. That's the game. As long as we take the risks and know they are only that. That's fine but if we get too attached to it then can be a leak in ones game. It may be a small leak, It could be a big leak. But in the end, the little things make all the difference.
Of course, we all "try to take smart gambles and risk at the right time" when we play this game. And invariably at the margins there will be plenty of room for disagreement between strong players until euchre is solved mathematically. Until then I think it is unwise to act sure of these spots when one cannot be sure. But hey, I'm not here to be wise so here's what I'll act sure about:

Passing this hand as the dealer when your team is up 5-0 is criminal:

Dealer upcard (Card_10-D)

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C) (Card_K-S)

And if one is passing that hand at say 0-0 becuz they are worried about giving away "free points" getting exploited by good players/teams, but auto-calling with approximately equivalent strength hands like:

Dealer upcard (Card_9-D)

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S)

or

Dealer upcard (Card_9-C)

(Card_J-C) (Card_10-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_Q-H) (Card_J-H)

Then they are not being logically consistent which strongly suggests there are holes in their game they need to clean up.

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:55 pm

I am not sure why T-bolt goes off on a tangent of talking about making thin calls as a standard practice. Stick to the hand in question.
You are up 5 - 0 and have two potential tricks counting on your partner for a trick! That is good euchre for the dealer to pick up the 10D. And even if your success rate is only 66%, and euchres 33% you are breaking even. It is speculative as to what eldest will do. But you have to also consider, I highly suspect the dealer was bagging for a Next call - seriously doubt the rate of euchres even if hearts was called will justify this ploy. I would make diamonds unless I had a high confidence that hearts would be called. If eldest passes, which is about 40% on the average, I have now put my partner in a position if he calls thin, a set up for being euchred, which is exactly what did occur.

Passing this hand as the dealer when your team is up 5-0 is criminal:
Dealer upcard (Card_10-D)
(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

~Irishwolf

Tbolt65
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Post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:35 am

irishwolf wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:55 pm
I am not sure why T-bolt goes off on a tangent of talking about making thin calls as a standard practice. Stick to the hand in question.
You are up 5 - 0 and have two potential tricks counting on your partner for a trick! That is good euchre for the dealer to pick up the 10D. And even if your success rate is only 66%, and euchres 33% you are breaking even. It is speculative as to what eldest will do. But you have to also consider, I highly suspect the dealer was bagging for a Next call - seriously doubt the rate of euchres even if hearts was called will justify this ploy. I would make diamonds unless I had a high confidence that hearts would be called. If eldest passes, which is about 40% on the average, I have now put my partner in a position if he calls thin, a set up for being euchred, which is exactly what did occur.

Passing this hand as the dealer when your team is up 5-0 is criminal:
Dealer upcard (Card_10-D)
(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

~Irishwolf

Tangent - a completely different line of thought or action.

Where in my post did I ever say that you couldn't play this at all in my post? What I have said talks about the hand in question and what I would do but also points out to make sure that "IF" one does try to play this all the time it would be a bad idea and/or a mistake. So I cover the topic at hand then caution players to play this kind/type of hand sparingly. It is totally relevant.


I wonder If I am speaking greek sometimes its like no one understands. Are people expecting a certain boxed response? Wes elaborates all the time on hands and situations and even goes into totally different hands to further explain his points in the various subject matters. He makes good cases most of the time and its easy to follow. Oh I know. I think I need to add more pictures. Yeah that's what I'm missing. Maybe I should draw it in crayon, like usual(great movie quote btw) :o :lol: 8-) (just having some fun)


Greek:
Ενάντια σε ομάδες και παίκτες που κάνουν λάθη, ναι. Εναντίον καλών παικτών όχι. Σε διαφορετικές βαθμολογίες λένε σαν 9-x. Ναι, εναντίον κανενός.

Μπορείτε ακόμα να έχετε μια πιθανή euchre σε μια επόμενη κλήση εναντίον ομάδες που καλούν το επόμενο σε μεγάλο βαθμό σε αδύναμες εκμεταλλεύσεις. Έχεις ένα διπλό με ένα κενό στα διαμάντια. Σου εγγυώμαι ότι η άλλη ομάδα θα έχει τουλάχιστον ένα διαμάντι αν είναι η επόμενη ομάδα.

Μπορείτε να καλέσετε αυτόν τον τύπο σίγουρα, θα κάνετε "μερικά " πόντους; Σίγουρος. Θα γίνεις σίγουρος; Πρέπει να διαλέξεις και να διαλέξεις σημεία για να παίξεις επιθετικά έτσι. Αν το κάνετε αυτό ένα τυπικό παιχνίδι όλη την ώρα μπορώ σίγουρα να σας εγγυηθεί. Θα σας εκμεταλλεύονται οι καλοί παίκτες/ομάδες. Θα είναι σίγουρα θα δώσει μακριά "δωρεάν πόντους ", όπως μου αρέσει να πω.


Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:35 am
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:55 pm
I am not sure why T-bolt goes off on a tangent of talking about making thin calls as a standard practice. Stick to the hand in question.
You are up 5 - 0 and have two potential tricks counting on your partner for a trick! That is good euchre for the dealer to pick up the 10D. And even if your success rate is only 66%, and euchres 33% you are breaking even. It is speculative as to what eldest will do. But you have to also consider, I highly suspect the dealer was bagging for a Next call - seriously doubt the rate of euchres even if hearts was called will justify this ploy. I would make diamonds unless I had a high confidence that hearts would be called. If eldest passes, which is about 40% on the average, I have now put my partner in a position if he calls thin, a set up for being euchred, which is exactly what did occur.

Passing this hand as the dealer when your team is up 5-0 is criminal:
Dealer upcard (Card_10-D)
(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

~Irishwolf

Tangent - a completely different line of thought or action.

Where in my post did I ever say that you couldn't play this at all in my post? What I have said talks about the hand in question and what I would do but also points out to make sure that "IF" one does try to play this all the time it would be a bad idea and/or a mistake. So I cover the topic at hand then caution players to play this kind/type of hand sparingly. It is totally relevant.


I wonder If I am speaking greek sometimes its like no one understands. Are people expecting a certain boxed response? Wes elaborates all the time on hands and situations and even goes into totally different hands to further explain his points in the various subject matters. He makes good cases most of the time and its easy to follow. Oh I know. I think I need to add more pictures. Yeah that's what I'm missing. Maybe I should draw it in crayon, like usual(great movie quote btw) :o :lol: 8-) (just having some fun)

Tbolt65
Edward
:lol: :P :lol:

I have felt that way about the top posters as long as I have visited the forum! The topic of the OP (original post) is rarely answered directly. The topic “triggers” an association to a hand in the memory of the reader. That topic then is what is discussed in the reply.

I am one of the rare individuals that appreciates and deals with this type of response. (Proof later). I understand that geniuses on specific topics can discuss 100 times more than the question requires. They will have the natural human tendency to demonstrate their knowledge. I am guilty of doing the same on my topics of expertise. It has taken me years to develop the skill set to not discuss iterations, tangents and foundational concepts. I am as guilty as anyone on the forum.
:lol: :P :lol:

Richard’s rules for dealing with geniuses, with credit to Dale Carnegie’s “Power Reading (Listening) training, are: listen intensely as long as you can absorb the information, once you can’t absorb the information, half-listen until the topic changes and then repeat. Afterwards reread or look up concepts that were interesting but over your head. And in the future, as your mind associates with information that the genius provided, look up the information and/or reread the post.

Wes’ response has evolved to 1, Answer the question and 2, share his train of thoughts that his mind associates with the OP. It is a good model to follow. It is not a boxed response. It is a responsive model.I still typically stop absorbing about 1/3rd through his post. I revisit later. I absorb some more. I have even posted that I remember his post from 6 months ago and it finally makes some sense.

I promised a proof. All of the top posters are geniuses in Euchre, with tens of thousands of games played and an incredible intensity, except for me. I am the lone beginner/casual player that has Hung around and become a top poster. Most visitors see the immense details as TMI and simply read to their limit, leave OE and never return. That is why is recommend a main topic of, “Beginners and Casual Players Welcome.” They need a welcoming starting point. We need additional Euchre players including intense, challenging players.

Tbolt65
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:40 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:35 am
irishwolf wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:55 pm
I am not sure why T-bolt goes off on a tangent of talking about making thin calls as a standard practice. Stick to the hand in question.
You are up 5 - 0 and have two potential tricks counting on your partner for a trick! That is good euchre for the dealer to pick up the 10D. And even if your success rate is only 66%, and euchres 33% you are breaking even. It is speculative as to what eldest will do. But you have to also consider, I highly suspect the dealer was bagging for a Next call - seriously doubt the rate of euchres even if hearts was called will justify this ploy. I would make diamonds unless I had a high confidence that hearts would be called. If eldest passes, which is about 40% on the average, I have now put my partner in a position if he calls thin, a set up for being euchred, which is exactly what did occur.

Passing this hand as the dealer when your team is up 5-0 is criminal:
Dealer upcard (Card_10-D)
(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

~Irishwolf

Tangent - a completely different line of thought or action.

Where in my post did I ever say that you couldn't play this at all in my post? What I have said talks about the hand in question and what I would do but also points out to make sure that "IF" one does try to play this all the time it would be a bad idea and/or a mistake. So I cover the topic at hand then caution players to play this kind/type of hand sparingly. It is totally relevant.


I wonder If I am speaking greek sometimes its like no one understands. Are people expecting a certain boxed response? Wes elaborates all the time on hands and situations and even goes into totally different hands to further explain his points in the various subject matters. He makes good cases most of the time and its easy to follow. Oh I know. I think I need to add more pictures. Yeah that's what I'm missing. Maybe I should draw it in crayon, like usual(great movie quote btw) :o :lol: 8-) (just having some fun)

Tbolt65
Edward
:lol: :P :lol:

I have felt that way about the top posters as long as I have visited the forum! The topic of the OP (original post) is rarely answered directly. The topic “triggers” an association to a hand in the memory of the reader. That topic then is what is discussed in the reply.

I am one of the rare individuals that appreciates and deals with this type of response. (Proof later). I understand that geniuses on specific topics can discuss 100 times more than the question requires. They will have the natural human tendency to demonstrate their knowledge. I am guilty of doing the same on my topics of expertise. It has taken me years to develop the skill set to not discuss iterations, tangents and foundational concepts. I am as guilty as anyone on the forum.
:lol: :P :lol:

Richard’s rules for dealing with geniuses, with credit to Dale Carnegie’s “Power Reading (Listening) training, are: listen intensely as long as you can absorb the information, once you can’t absorb the information, half-listen until the topic changes and then repeat. Afterwards reread or look up concepts that were interesting but over your head. And in the future, as your mind associates with information that the genius provided, look up the information and/or reread the post.

Wes’ response has evolved to 1, Answer the question and 2, share his train of thoughts that his mind associates with the OP. It is a good model to follow. It is not a boxed response. It is a responsive model.I still typically stop absorbing about 1/3rd through his post. I revisit later. I absorb some more. I have even posted that I remember his post from 6 months ago and it finally makes some sense.

I promised a proof. All of the top posters are geniuses in Euchre, with tens of thousands of games played and an incredible intensity, except for me. I am the lone beginner/casual player that has Hung around and become a top poster. Most visitors see the immense details as TMI and simply read to their limit, leave OE and never return. That is why is recommend a main topic of, “Beginners and Casual Players Welcome.” They need a welcoming starting point. We need additional Euchre players including intense, challenging players.



Richard,
I'm not slighting Wes at all. His elaboration with hands and further break down is excellent.

Maybe Instead of boxed I should of said certain.

Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:58 pm

Edward,
It is easy to be misunderstood on a forum. I was not implying or even hinting that you were slighting Wes in the least. You make great efforts to be gracious.

I was complimenting Wes on his posts evolving to 1, respond to the main point and 2, share Wes’ train of thought, experience and wisdom on related hands.

Then, if I was hinting at anything, I said, “It is a good model to follow.” That is my hint to everyone else, address the question and then you have earned the right, to tell us what is on your mind (related, at least a little bit to the OP).

Be careful though, Wes may think that I like him and get a swelled head. LOL.
:lol: :) :lol:

Tbolt65
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:07 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:58 pm
Edward,
It is easy to be misunderstood on a forum. I was not implying or even hinting that you were slighting Wes in the least. You make great efforts to be gracious.

I was complimenting Wes on his posts evolving to 1, respond to the main point and 2, share Wes’ train of thought, experience and wisdom on related hands.

Then, if I was hinting at anything, I said, “It is a good model to follow.” That is my hint to everyone else, address the question and then you have earned the right, to tell us what is on your mind (related, at least a little bit to the OP).

Be careful though, Wes may think that I like him and get a swelled head. LOL.
:lol: :) :lol:

Too late, 8-)


Tbolt65
Edward

jspectre
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 am

Post by jspectre » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:30 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:00 am
jspectre wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:28 pm
Up 5-0 and with an average partner, I'm always calling this spot. Now, give me a good partner who I can trust to make the right calls, and I'm passing here.
The nature of your partner should have no bearing in this spot unless they play so aggressively from the 2 spot, 1st rd that you are pretty certain they will have virtually no help if you call. Other than that, it's the quality of Seat 1 that maybe should influence your decision. If they call Next super aggressively then maybe it's worth passing this hand, but that type of player is quite rare. And like I said before, this becomes a math problem in any case.

That I would have to disagree with. It's a much different scenario if I know my partner is calling me on at least 2 small trump and ace if they don't block all suits versus a partner that could potentially be holding right + 1 and not calling. If I have reason to believe my partner is subpar, I will go ahead and make calls that I might avoid with a better partner. You're correct that I'm saying I don't want to play a marginal hand in diamonds if I'm stronger in next, whether this is a good play overall, I can't be certain.
jspectre wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:28 pm
I have next covered, and my partner is more likely to have strength in black than he does in red. In those rare circumstances where 1st is sitting on a black loner I just shrug it off, it's not something that happens consistently enough to go out of my way to avoid.
I find the notion that the dealer only has to worry about the Next suit misguided. The dealer is the last stop before the 2nd round commences. The dealer should feel a sense of responsibility to defend against all possible suits from Seat 1 as there is nothing stopping Seat 1 from having a strong black hand or a strong Next hand. Now the dealer can only do so much. The upcard still drives the action, and if you fight against the upcard too much you're going to get your team in trouble. But the dealer does have some wiggle room to play some defense, and since the dealer is the only thing separating his team from the enemy, he should feel obligated to utilize that wiggle room as much as he can, worrying about ALL suits he doesn't have covered.

It's not only next that I have to worry about, but unless my opponents hold all the power cards, then I have to make assumptions that my partner is stronger in black than red if he can't help me. However, it's certainly possible that my partner has more strength in next, yet almost no strength in the turn suit. In these situations I am asking for trouble by passing with only next covered. Still, I find that this is not the case as often as my partner would prefer to call black, so based on the strength of my hand I have to decide whether the risk is acceptable for passing or if I need to try to make that marginal call work. A lot of things will factor into my decision to pass with this holding, including a gut feeling about what my partner has and what my opponents have. There's plenty of times I do try this marginal call and I walk right into a buzzsaw, when I had next blocked and they would have called it, and my partner had all black.

Good examples of utilizing that wiggle room are calling with Right + 1 and nothing else when you don't block all suits or calling with Left + 1 + an off ace when you only block 1 out of the 3 remaining suits.

I also find it perplexing and inconsistent that people would call with this hand:

Upcard is (Card_9-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_10-H) (Card_10-C) (Card_10-S)

But wanna pass with this hand:

Upcard is (Card_10-D), you're the dealer with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-C)

I mean really? You guys really think there's a big difference in strength between those marginal hands? Not me. To me they're both standard defensive calls that a good dealer has to make. I.E. -EO hands that are +EV overall due to the cost of passing being greater than the cost of calling.

If one is always calling with 3 trump but passing certain 2 trump hands that have equivalent strength to some of the 3 trump hands they call with then something's amiss.
I view the low diamonds hand as a must call, simply because I hold no blocks in next, not because 3 weak diamonds and 2 junk cards is a much more desirable call than left + 1 and off ace. I at least have a choice when it comes to the 2nd option because I have a next call potentially euchred, and I still expect to stop a point in black if they cross the river. In the event I get taken for a loner in black, if my partner didn't fail to make a good call, then I simply accept that this was unlucky. I play fairly aggressive/defensive, but I'm not going to play in a way that I never try to allow for the possibility that my opponents can't make a good call or that my partner can make a great call in black if I let them. However, It's all very situational and can vary quite a bit for me.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:58 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:58 pm
Be careful though, Wes may think that I like him and get a swelled head. LOL.
:lol: :) :lol:
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:07 pm
Too late, 8-)


Tbolt65
Edward
I don't want to be liked. I don't want to be hated.

I WANT TO BE FEARED

Tbolt65
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:10 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:58 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:58 pm
Be careful though, Wes may think that I like him and get a swelled head. LOL.
:lol: :) :lol:
Tbolt65 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:07 pm
Too late, 8-)


Tbolt65
Edward
I don't want to be liked. I don't want to be hated.

I WANT TO BE FEARED
Well I guess you gotta have goals.

Richardb02
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:48 pm

:lol: :P :lol:

irishwolf
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:05 pm

And so he said, " I don't want to be liked. I don't want to be hated.
I WANT TO BE FEARED "

TO BE LOVED OR FEARED, 'tis the question?

CHOOSE YOUR FATE:

I don't want to be loved. I want to be feared. Love is safety, but fear is foul.
I just want to be feared, is that so wrong?

“Above all, he liked it that everything was one's own fault. There was only oneself to praise or blame. Luck was a servant and not a master. Luck had to be accepted with a shrug or taken advantage of up to the hilt. But it had to be understood and recognized for what it was and not confused with a faulty appreciation of the odds, for, at gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck. And luck in all its moods had to be loved and not feared”
— Ian Fleming

“I don't doubt that every prince would like to be both; but since it is hard to accommodate these qualities, if you have to make a choice, to be feared is much safer than to be loved. For it is a good general rule about men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, liars, and deceivers, fearful of danger and greedy for gain ... [love] is a link of obligation which men, because they are rotten, will break anything they think doing so serves their advantage; but fear involves dread of punishment, from which they can never escape.”
— Niccolo Machiavell

inglewoodjack
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:15 am

Post by inglewoodjack » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:00 pm

Separate question - on the original hand, if you pick-up, what is the discard? 10H or KS?

irishwolf
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by irishwolf » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:58 pm

I think an easy question. Since the KS will take a trick when the AS is buried (~17% AS is buried) and the 10H almost never, discard the 10H. Many at 1st seat also like to lead next and H's is next so discard the 10H.

"Separate question - on the original hand, if you pick-up, what is the discard? 10H or KS?"

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 pm

inglewoodjack wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:00 pm
Separate question - on the original hand, if you pick-up, what is the discard? 10H or KS?
irishwolf wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:58 pm
I think an easy question. Since the KS will take a trick when the AS is buried (~17% AS is buried) and the 10H almost never, discard the 10H. Many at 1st seat also like to lead next and H's is next so discard the 10H.

"Separate question - on the original hand, if you pick-up, what is the discard? 10H or KS?"
I actually disagree with Irishwolf, but I would say weakly disagree becuz I have no hard data backing this up, but I do believe that against most players you should discard the KS and keep the TH. The reason being is I believe most S1 players veer towards leading green, and when that's the case I think it's much more important to discard to improve your chances of trumping in on the first lead. I think the value of maximizing your trumping in opportunities on the first lead is more valuable than the 17% of the time the AS is buried to the KS. However, if S1 tends to lead Next, then I would do what IW recommended.

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