3rd seat orders up the right bower

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marya
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3rd seat orders up the right bower

Post by marya » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:14 pm

Irishwolf just posted this scenario in another thread:

3rd seat orders up right bower - clickable replayer.

The up card is the J of clubs, and 3rd seat ordered this up to the opponent. First seat is a bot, and the bot has this hand:
(Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-H)

The bot leads with (Card_9-D) . :oops:

Normally, when my 3rd-seat partner declares trump in Euchre, I will do one of the following:
  • If I have just one trump card, I will lead with that.
    If I have two trump and one is the right bower, I will lead with the right.
    If I have two trump but neither is the right bower, I will lead with the lowest trump card
So, the bot didn't do what I would do, and my expectation is that I should reprogram the bots in this scenario. Is my "algorithm" correct? Hit me upside the head with your knowledge, please. And if there's a tutorial page about this, can you point me to it? Thanks!

Marya



irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:24 pm

Not correct!

"If I have two trump but neither is the right bower, I will lead with the lowest trump card. "
If you have two, ace or king and a lower one, you Must lead the higher one. Here is why: Suppose I am at 3rd seat and order the dealer with (hearts) QH is the up card and I Hold RH, KH 10H any xx xx, you have the AH. It allows me to play low to "force" the Left bower. I can't get the Left but it removes it from play. (Most players do not know this ploy.)

If you have no trump at eldest, then you need to lead me an off suit Ace.

~Irishwolf

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Post by Richardb02 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:01 pm

marya wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:14 pm
Irishwolf just posted this scenario in another thread:

3rd seat orders up right bower - clickable replayer.

The up card is the J of clubs, and 3rd seat ordered this up to the opponent. First seat is a bot, and the bot has this hand:
(Card_9-C) (Card_9-D) (Card_9-S) (Card_A-S) (Card_K-H)

The bot leads with (Card_9-D) . :oops:

Normally, when my 3rd-seat partner declares trump in Euchre, I will do one of the following:
  • If I have just one trump card, I will lead with that.
    If I have two trump and one is the right bower, I will lead with the right.
    If I have two trump but neither is the right bower, I will lead with the lowest trump card
So, the bot didn't do what I would do, and my expectation is that I should reprogram the bots in this scenario. Is my "algorithm" correct? Hit me upside the head with your knowledge, please. And if there's a tutorial page about this, can you point me to it? Thanks!

Marya
Here is the Ohio Euchre Lesson:
https://ohioeuchre.com/L-Learn_To_Play_ ... o_Lead.php

Based on Irish and confirmed with OE, I would modify your plan (algorithm):
  • If I have just one trump card, I will lead with that. OK
    If I have two trump and one is xxx xxxxx a bower, I will lead with xxx xxxxx. that bower. If I have both Bowers (not likely, this scenario, but in general) I will only lead the Right.
    If I have two trump but neither is
    bower, I will lead with the xxxxxx xxx xxxxx highest trump.

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marya
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Post by marya » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:22 pm

Thanks so much to you both! This is going in my issue tracker. I hope I can get this fixed for the next site update.

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Post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:50 pm

I should have also added that if eldest win the trick and has another trump of any size, it should also be led. This is one of the few times in euchre of two leads of trump.

Irishwolf

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marya
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Post by marya » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:36 pm

I have a follow-up question!

I was just reading the What to Lead page that Richardb02 linked to.

There's a section entitled "Once you get to lead". It reads in part: "If your partner called trump, and you hold the right or left, you should lead it at your first opportunity... If you do not hold a bower, lead a small trump. If you hold a couple of trump, it's usually best to lead your second highest trump... A low trump lead should bring the lead to your partner..." [emphasis mine].

If I'm reading this correctly, it's saying to lead your lowest trump (second highest) when you have two trump. For example, you have the 9 and K of trump? Then lead the 9. Have the 10 and Q of trump? Lead the 10.

Both Irishwolf and Richardb02 are telling me to lead my high trump. So is there a conflict between the "What to Lead" page here at Ohio Euchre, or did I misread that page? Is there disagreement amongst the experts on this point?

Thanks for any additional feedback!

Marya

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Post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:16 pm

I don't think that is referring to when the Pone orders the dealer. But you should as Don what and when this applies. For me, I order the dealer, LEAD ME YOUR HIGHEST OF LEFT ACE OR KING. I gave you the reasoning is to why. The PRINCIPLE IS DON'T FOOL YOUR PARTNER THE MAKER!

I think it applies to 2nd round, Pone calls lead your highest.


There's a section entitled "Once you get to lead". It reads in part: "If your partner called trump, and you hold the right or left, you should lead it at your first opportunity... If you do not hold a bower, lead a small trump. If you hold a couple of trump, it's usually best to lead your second highest trump... A low trump lead should bring the lead to your partner..." [emphasis mine].

If I'm reading this correctly, it's saying to lead your lowest trump (second highest) when you have two trump. For example, you have the 9 and K of trump? Then lead the 9. Have the 10 and Q of trump? Lead the 10.

Both Irishwolf and Richardb02 are telling me to lead my high trump. So is there a conflict between the "What to Lead" page here at Ohio Euchre, or did I misread that page? Is there disagreement amongst the experts on this point?

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marya
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Post by marya » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:18 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:50 pm
I should have also added that if eldest win the trick and has another trump of any size, it should also be led. This is one of the few times in euchre of two leads of trump.

Irishwolf
Please clarify: Is eldest leading trump twice because the up card was ordered into the opponent's hand? Is that the case when two leads of trump is acceptable?

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Post by irishwolf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:56 pm

That is correct, if eldest wins first trick, he leads trump again (this is when 3rd seat orders the dealer on the 1st round).

This is because the maker has the power hand and the dealer usually has two trumps.

Irishwolf

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Post by Tbolt65 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:59 pm

If I may chime in here. You have to see what is played before assuming dealer has the two trump. To "always" lead trump back to back here with out taking in consideration what was ordered and what was played, Ie: counting the trump cards and what is left. To bleed trump unnecessarily can cost your team 2 points and even put your team at risk of not even making point. So before you do decide to double lead that trump. You have to be reasonably certain the dealer still has more trump and that, seat three(your partner) will take the lead if you flush out trump like that.

Tbolt65
Edward

irishwolf
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Post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:19 am

The problem with what you are saying is that eldest has no idea what Pone has. Even if the Ace is the up card and eldest leads the Left, the dealer could have the King as an example. (dealer might have Right, Q 9/10 and an Ace. So give me an example(s) where your statement is TRUE?

"So before you do decide to double lead that trump. You have to be reasonably certain the dealer still has more trump and that, seat three(your partner) will take the lead if you flush out trump like that."

~Irishwolf

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Post by Tbolt65 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:51 am

Well it seems like I may be misreading a post here. If there is was a particular holdings that had been set. I think I failed to recognize it. I am speaking in general terms of when third seat orders up dealer and 1st seat leads that first Trump and takes it then is possibly leading again. As some have pointed out as the way to play but I had interjected that doing so could cost the team ordering.

Clarification is in order so I may comment properly on what is really being asked of.

Thanks,

Tbolt65
Edward

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:59 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:51 am
Well it seems like I may be misreading a post here. If there is was a particular holdings that had been set. I think I failed to recognize it. I am speaking in general terms of when third seat orders up dealer and 1st seat leads that first Trump and takes it then is possibly leading again. As some have pointed out as the way to play but I had interjected that doing so could cost the team ordering.

Clarification is in order so I may comment properly on what is really being asked of.

Thanks,

Tbolt65
Edward
Speaking generally, 1st seat should not always double lead trump on a 3rd seat call. The crux of the hand comes down to whether or not the 2 seat shows void in trump on the first lead. If the 2 seat shows he has no trump on the first lead then the 1st seat MUST lead trump again if he has control. If the 2 seat plays a trump on the first lead then 1st seat should NOT lead trump again unless he is positive the dealer has another trump (this would mean the dealer played a different trump than the upcard on the first lead which indicates that 3rd seat, the maker, made a dubious 1st rd call with only 2 trump).

The logic:

1) Assume a 3rd seat maker has 3 trump
2) In this hypothetical we know Seat 1 has 2 trump.
3) We also know that the dealer has at least 1 trump, the upcard.

That's 6 trump accounted for, 1 unaccounted for. If the 2 seat shows void in trump on the first lead, then that 1 unaccounted trump is most likely in the dealer's hand, I.E. the dealer started off with 2 trump. Therefore, Seat 1 must lead trump again if he has control after the first lead to clean out the dealer.

If instead the 2 seat plays trump on the first lead, and the dealer plays the upcard, then all trump are now accounted for, meaning the enemy is out of trump. Now double leading trump can only hurt your team, so lead something else.

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Post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:37 am

I agree with the situation 2nd seat played to the first trick. But you have to be confident 3rd has 3 trumps.

patiencepays

Post by patiencepays » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:07 pm

Re: 1st seat double leading trump when 3rd orders and 1 seat wins trick 1.

As I see it, absent partner 3rd seat ordering tendency, when it's not clear or not where all the remaining trump may be after the 1st trick is won, which route to go, a second trump lead or not, is a crapshoot.

When 3rd seat makes trump and doesn't go alone, as his partner you know he wants help but where he needs help to attain a MARCH is uncertain to all. Even assuming the pones hand is quite strong in trump, the success of either lead leading to a MARCH is really dependant on the sidesuit card distribution.

Perhaps a second trump lead will set up the pone, if the pone is strong in side suit? But perhaps leading a suit ace 2nd trick, and winning the trick, will give his partner a chance to sluff a potential weaker card.

If you're playing for the March, either 2nd trick lead strategy seems to be equally capable of spoiing that outcome.

ME! I prefer to avoid a second trump lead if my partner has left me with the lead after I offered it to him. To me he's screaming of more HELP.

TY
"Patiencepays", but the math leads the way1

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Post by Richardb02 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:06 pm

marya wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:36 pm
I have a follow-up question!

I was just reading the What to Lead page that Richardb02 linked to.

There's a section entitled "Once you get to lead". It reads in part: "If your partner called trump, and you hold the right or left, you should lead it at your first opportunity... If you do not hold a bower, lead a small trump. If you hold a couple of trump, it's usually best to lead your second highest trump... A low trump lead should bring the lead to your partner..." [emphasis mine].

If I'm reading this correctly, it's saying to lead your lowest trump (second highest) when you have two trump. For example, you have the 9 and K of trump? Then lead the 9. Have the 10 and Q of trump? Lead the 10.

[/quote

Good technical catch, Mayra, as expected by a detail oriented programmer. Dan will have to clarify whether he meant “the 2nd Lowest trump,” when talking about 2 trump? I, and apparently Irish, expected Dan to say the “lowest trump”, if he meant to play the lowest trump. Since Dan said, “2nd lowest trump,” I assumed he was talking about having 3 trump. Since our conversation was only if S1 had 2 trump, Dan’s wording was not clear whether it applied to S1 having 2 trump. Since Dan recommended playing the Right, if S1 had R & L, then it is consistent to play the higher of 2 trumps, if S1 Only has 2 trump.

Both Irishwolf and Richardb02 are telling me to lead my high trump. So is there a conflict between the "What to Lead" page here at Ohio Euchre, or did I misread that page? Is there disagreement amongst the experts on this point?

Thanks for any additional feedback!

Marya

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:24 pm
If you have two, ace or king and a lower one, you Must lead the higher one. Here is why: Suppose I am at 3rd seat and order the dealer with (hearts) QH is the up card and I Hold RH, KH 10H any xx xx, you have the AH. It allows me to play low to "force" the Left bower. I can't get the Left but it removes it from play. (Most players do not know this ploy.)

If you have no trump at eldest, then you need to lead me an off suit Ace.

~Irishwolf
Just making sure people pay attention to this post becuz it's a good one.

To reiterate. If your P calls from the 3rd seat, 1st round--say hearts is trump--and you have:

(Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) or (Card_A-H) (Card_9-H)

You MUST lead the KH or the AH.

To understand why this is so, you have to understand why the 3rd Seat maker should not play the Right bower on the first trump lead under many circumstances.

For example:

Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-H), 3rd seat orders the dealer up with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-S)

Seat 1 leads the (Card_A-H)
Seat 2 follows suit with the (Card_Q-H)

If Seat 3 plays with the (Card_J-H) on this lead, he is making a CLEAR mistake.

Seat 3 should play the (Card_9-H).

Why? Becuz if the dealer has a guarded Left, you can't stop him anyways so you might as well let him have the first trick, putting the lead in a good spot for the Maker. But if Seat 2 has the guarded Left, you'll now have a chance to strip him of it!!!

This is why it's so critical for Seat 1 to lead his highest trump in this spot if he has the Ace or King of trump, to give his P a chance to run this play.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:04 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:37 am
I agree with the situation 2nd seat played to the first trick. But you have to be confident 3rd has 3 trumps.
True, everything I delineated hinges on the assumption that Seat 3 has 3. Since I believe Seat 3 will have 3 trump the vast majority of time, I'm confident that 'double leading trump when Seat 2 shows void in trump and not double leading trump when Seat 2 plays a trump + the dealer plays the upcard' will be the best strategy overall. Assuming Seat 3 has three trump is not a perfect assumption but it's true often enough for the advocated strategy to be the correct one.

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Post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:24 pm

Let's not lose sight of the original ISSUE was that 3rd seat ordered and Eldest had one small trump and an Ace off suit. He led neither, instead the led a 9D off suit.

CLEARLY not programmed correctly. It's like play 3 against one.

~Irishwolf

patiencepays

Post by patiencepays » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm
irishwolf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:24 pm
If you have two, ace or king and a lower one, you Must lead the higher one. Here is why: Suppose I am at 3rd seat and order the dealer with (hearts) QH is the up card and I Hold RH, KH 10H any xx xx, you have the AH. It allows me to play low to "force" the Left bower. I can't get the Left but it removes it from play. (Most players do not know this ploy.)

If you have no trump at eldest, then you need to lead me an off suit Ace.

~Irishwolf
Just making sure people pay attention to this post becuz it's a good one.

To reiterate. If your P calls from the 3rd seat, 1st round--say hearts is trump--and you have:

(Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) or (Card_A-H) (Card_9-H)

You MUST lead the KH or the AH.


To understand why this is so, you have to understand why the 3rd Seat maker should not play the Right bower on the first trump lead under many circumstances.

For example:

Dealer upcard is the (Card_10-H), 3rd seat orders the dealer up with:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-S)

Seat 1 leads the (Card_A-H)
Seat 2 follows suit with the (Card_Q-H)

If Seat 3 plays with the (Card_J-H) on this lead, he is making a CLEAR mistake.

Seat 3 should play the (Card_9-H).

Why? Becuz if the dealer has a guarded Left,
you can't stop him anyways so you might as well let him have the first trick, putting the lead in a good spot for the Maker. But if Seat 2 has the guarded Left, you'll now have a chance to strip him of it!!!

This is why it's so critical for Seat 1 to lead his highest trump in this spot if he has the Ace or King of trump, to give his P a chance to run this play.
Wes,(AKA legend) your example doesn't fit the circumstance you are trying to identify.

If 1st seat is supposed to have two trump, and leads one out (Ah),
And 2nd seat plays the (Qh)
And the maker pone has (Jh, Kh, 9H)
And the dealer has the upcard (Th)
That trump count totals 6.


It is not possible for the dealer to have the left bower because with the distribution you laid out, In order for 1st seat to have 2 trump to choose from to lead, it is he who must have the seventh trump, the Left Bower ...which 1st seat should have led instead of the Ah.

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Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:09 pm

patiencepays wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 pm
Wes,(AKA legend) your example doesn't fit the circumstance you are trying to identify.

If 1st seat is supposed to have two trump, and leads one out (Ah),
And 2nd seat plays the (Qh)
And the maker pone has (Jh, Kh, 9H)
And the dealer has the upcard (Th)
That trump count totals 6.


It is not possible for the dealer to have the left bower because with the distribution you laid out, In order for 1st seat to have 2 trump to choose from to lead, it is he who must have the seventh trump, the Left Bower ...which 1st seat should have led instead of the Ah.
Lol me. Good point patiencepays. So let me clean this up a little.

Say hearts is trump and 3rd seat orders up in the first rd. If you're in First seat with

(Card_A-H) (Card_9-H)

You should still lead the AH to give your P the option to play under if he has JJX

If instead you have this in first seat:

(Card_K-H) (Card_9-H)

I'd still lead high to give your P the option of playing under his Right those times he has something like

(Card_J-H) (Card_A-H) (Card_10-H)

Might as well give your P the option to find out if the Left is buried or not on the first lead.

From the perspective of the Maker in 3rd seat, he should always save the Right on the first trump lead if you lead the AH and he has a hand like:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-S)

Becuz this gives him the chance to strip Seat 2 of a guarded Left those times Seat 1 only has one trump, and if the dealer has the guarded Left no harm no foul since he was getting that trick anyways and the dealer having the lead on the 2nd trick is good for the maker anyways.

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Post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:19 pm

CORRECT!


From the perspective of the Maker in 3rd seat, he should always save the Right on the first trump lead if you lead the AH and he has a hand like:

(Card_J-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_A-C) (Card_10-S)

Becuz this gives him the chance to strip Seat 2 of a guarded Left those times Seat 1 only has one trump, and if the dealer has the guarded Left no harm no foul since he was getting that trick anyways and the dealer having the lead on the 2nd trick is good for the maker anyways.
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patiencepays

Post by patiencepays » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:17 pm

The moral of the story from the last several postings as I see and believe: when 3rd seat orders the dealer, 1st seat should LEAD TRUMP if he has one, and if he has more than one, LEAD THE HIGHEST. And ARRRRRRRRGH, No offsuit ace lead first unless you're void of trump in 1st seat! Only too often a offsuit ace lead first ends as a gift trick to the opps. Your trump lead gives your partner, the maker a good opportunity to take control of the line of play, and that's usually a good thing.

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Post by marya » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:39 pm

patiencepays wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:17 pm
No offsuit ace lead first unless you're void of trump in 1st seat! Only too often a offsuit ace lead first ends as a gift trick to the opps.
This whole thread is excellent. Thank you everyone! I'm working on reprogramming the bots to fix this particular issue right this moment.

I also wanted to say, once I deploy the "new and improved" bots, it would not surprise me if I get some pushback (hostile no doubt). I was playing Euchre as a Guest at World of Card Games this week, and I led trump to my 3rd seat partner because they had ordered the up card. My partner told me right away that I was flat out wrong to do this! I thought "well, p, you just gave trump to our opponents - would you like me to lead my ace so that the dealer can trump it??". But I kept my mouth shut.

In fact, I've been leading trump to the caller for some time; the bots just haven't been programmed to do this because no one ever complained about it before. My gut feeling is that the solution agreed upon in this thread is correct (otherwise I would not be doing it myself). But you see the problem: some people will yell at you when you do the right thing :/ I find it very odd.

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Post by irishwolf » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:23 pm

Marya,

I guess that is why when you click on Globally for Euchre, you find more games lost than One. Any good euchre knows you need a lead of trump!

~Irishwolf

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Post by Dlan » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:47 pm

After reading through this post, I have up-dated the page to read:

If you do not hold a bower, lead a small trump. If you hold a couple of trump, it's usually best to lead your highest trump.

I can see why it would matter, especially if the higher card was an Ace or King

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Post by marya » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:18 am

This morning, I applied an update to World of Card Games so that the 1st seat bots will lead trump if their partner called it.

I ran 10,000 simulated (bots vs bots) games, and collected stats which indicate this tactic is a good one. The stats are in the link that I gave above, if you are interested. The 3rd seat bot tends to be timid in calling trump, so there were only about 400 hands where the tactic might be applied. Overall it seems the tactic improves your team's chances of getting 2 points vs 1 point. It would be interesting to see how this works with humans, but that's tougher than running bot simulations.

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