Rt + 1 When To Call

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jblowery
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Rt + 1 When To Call

Post by jblowery » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:30 pm

This seems to happen a lot. Typical situation. Let's say that diamonds was turned down. Im in the first seat and I have rt+1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C) or something like that. No aces.

What I've been doing is calling it if it is next or reverse next. Let's say I had this hand and I'm in the 2nd seat and a black suit was turned down. I'd also call it in that situation. On the other hand, it doesn't seem strong enough to call unless it is next (I'm in 1st seat) or reverse next (I'm in 2nd seat).

Wondering if people agree with that. Just in general. I know it may depend upon the score.

On the other hand, this is a little trickier. Let's look at this situation. Spades was turned down and I have the following rt+1 hand (which is stronger with the off-suite ace):

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C)

Stronger hand but I'm calling reverse next from the 1st position.

Here is another one that comes up sometimes. I'm in the 1st position. Diamonds is turned down and I'm in the 1st seat with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-H). Easy call if it is next but what about now.

Thanks.



RedDuke
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:08 pm

This seems to happen a lot. Typical situation. Let's say that diamonds was turned down. Im in the first seat and I have rt+1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C) or something like that. No aces.

What I've been doing is calling it if it is next or reverse next. Let's say I had this hand and I'm in the 2nd seat and a black suit was turned down. I'd also call it in that situation. On the other hand, it doesn't seem strong enough to call unless it is next (I'm in 1st seat) or reverse next (I'm in 2nd seat).

Wondering if people agree with that. Just in general. I know it may depend upon the score.
Absolutely call that as a next call from first seat.

The normal rule of thumb for a reverse next call from second seat is King+9 of trump and a side ace. This hand does not fit that rule. Here's the thing though, if first seat is a somewhat good player, there's no way he's passing second round unless he's got every suit blocked. That means that he has the jack of diamonds and another heart. Depending on what that other card is, you could be in a lot of trouble here with no aces and the fact that you're four suited. If first seat is holding a couple of aces besides (or even just 1), there's a high chance of a euchre here.
On the other hand, this is a little trickier. Let's look at this situation. Spades was turned down and I have the following rt+1 hand (which is stronger with the off-suite ace):

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C)

Stronger hand but I'm calling reverse next from the 1st position.
Never pass in first seat second round if you don't have everything blocked! Granted, given what you're holding, second seat would probably try a loner in diamonds more than any other suit. You have that stopped. You can't stop a clubs loner though and in fact, you have really nothing to defend against it. Call hearts.
Here is another one that comes up sometimes. I'm in the 1st position. Diamonds is turned down and I'm in the 1st seat with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-H). Easy call if it is next but what about now.

Thanks.
What was the turn card? The point of the next call is that your partner probably has at least one of the bowers. Odds are that your opponents are going to have the two black bowers (guaranteed if they turned down a jack) in which case your three clubs aren't really that great of a trump holding. They're a powerhouse though if you can strip trump from your opponents. I'd call hearts and lead the queen, hoping that my partner can take it with the right or left and leave the opponents with no trump at the same time.

Richardb02
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:47 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:08 pm
This seems to happen a lot. Typical situation. Let's say that diamonds was turned down. Im in the first seat and I have rt+1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C) or something like that. No aces.

What I've been doing is calling it if it is next or reverse next. Let's say I had this hand and I'm in the 2nd seat and a black suit was turned down. I'd also call it in that situation. On the other hand, it doesn't seem strong enough to call unless it is next (I'm in 1st seat) or reverse next (I'm in 2nd seat).

Wondering if people agree with that. Just in general. I know it may depend upon the score.
Absolutely call that as a next call from first seat.

The normal rule of thumb for a reverse next call from second seat is King+9 of trump and a side ace. This hand does not fit that rule. Here's the thing though, if first seat is a somewhat good player, there's no way he's passing second round unless he's got every suit blocked. That means that he has the jack of diamonds and another heart. Depending on what that other card is, you could be in a lot of trouble here with no aces and the fact that you're four suited. If first seat is holding a couple of aces besides (or even just 1), there's a high chance of a euchre here.
Great questions JBlowery! There is a lot to unpack.
Let's see if BPS is up to the task:
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Round 2
0.75 Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Qh
0.00 0 Voids, not good
2.75 More than the 2.25 needed to call from Seat 1
Call Next from Seat 1

Let's see what happens from Seat 2
0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.00 Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Qh
0.00 0 Voids, not good
-.50 1 Trump, 1 trump sucks
1.75 No,2.00 is the minimum from Seat 2, Pass, Hoyle has power do not over-run Hoyle
RedDuke wrote:
On the other hand, this is a little trickier. Let's look at this situation. Spades was turned down and I have the following rt+1 hand (which is stronger with the off-suite ace):

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-S) (Card_10-C)

Stronger hand but I'm calling reverse next from the 1st position.
Never pass in first seat second round if you don't have everything blocked! Granted, given what you're holding, second seat would probably try a loner in diamonds more than any other suit. You have that stopped. You can't stop a clubs loner though and in fact, you have really nothing to defend against it. Call hearts.
Let's look at the BPS:
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Round2
0.00 Rev Next
1.00 Jh
0.50 Qh
0.50 As
2.50 from Seat 1, 2.25 min,Call
Here is another one that comes up sometimes. I'm in the 1st position. Diamonds is turned down and I'm in the 1st seat with:

(Card_A-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_9-C) (Card_A-D) (Card_Q-H). Easy call if it is next but what about now.

Thanks.
What was the turn card? The point of the next call is that your partner probably has at least one of the bowers. Odds are that your opponents are going to have the two black bowers (guaranteed if they turned down a jack) in which case your three clubs aren't really that great of a trump holding. They're a powerhouse though if you can strip trump from your opponents. I'd call hearts and lead the queen, hoping that my partner can take it with the right or left and leave the opponents with no trump at the same time.
[/quote]

Diamonds is turned down and your strength is in clubs. You are going against Hoyle.
The turn card is only important if it is the Jack (or right). And a J only is a -0.25.
Let's look at the BPS:
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Round 2
0.0 Seat 1 Rev Next
0.50 Ac
0.50 Qc
0.25 9c
0.5 Ad
0.25 Void, Spades
0.50 3 trump, min points
3.00 Points, vs 2.25 min Seat 1 Call. The turn card is only worth 0.25, it is insignificant.

jblowery
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:43 am

Post by jblowery » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:33 am

Would you always order up partner a low trump with rt and another low one and nothing else? Chance of them going alone is low without the rt.

RedDuke
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:46 pm

jblowery wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:33 am
Would you always order up partner a low trump with rt and another low one and nothing else? Chance of them going alone is low without the rt.
Depends on your partner. I go alone quite a bit without the right. If I've got an aggressive partner that might try the same thing then I won't call. This also partly depends on the score. At a score of 8-2 up it's a lot less likely that an aggressive partner will try a loner than if we're the team that has 2.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:12 pm

jblowery wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:30 pm
This seems to happen a lot. Typical situation. Let's say that diamonds was turned down. Im in the first seat and I have rt+1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C) or something like that. No aces.
Absolute must call in next. When your enemy turns down a red card and all you have is a Qs and a 10c in black you should be really nervous about the possibility of a 2 seat, 2nd rd reverse next loner. Your hand isn't the greatest but it's actually a pretty strong next call. Even up 9-8, I'd probably still call hearts. This call makes a point often enough. And up 9-8, with a near dead hand in every other suit, I wouldn't wanna risk a 2 seat call closing out the game.

Also, to drive home how often I call next here, let's change your hand a tad. let's say you had this hand at 0-0 after a diamond was turned down:

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C)

I would still call next, and lead the Qh hoping to hit my partner hard. This is almost a pure donation play but I think it's worth it when you have a near dead hand because you're just so likely to lose 2 points on a 2 seat call anyways when you have no way to help your partner, so you might as well call next yourself becuz at least you'll block all 4 point sweeps from the 2 spot.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:39 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:08 pm
The normal rule of thumb for a reverse next call from second seat is King+9 of trump and a side ace. This hand does not fit that rule. Here's the thing though, if first seat is a somewhat good player, there's no way he's passing second round unless he's got every suit blocked. That means that he has the jack of diamonds and another heart. Depending on what that other card is, you could be in a lot of trouble here with no aces and the fact that you're four suited. If first seat is holding a couple of aces besides (or even just 1), there's a high chance of a euchre here.
I wouldn't go that far.

1) What's most critical is having reverse next blocked. There are hand combos where it's ok to pass if you don't have the next suit blocked. In theory you're hoping your partner has that suit covered.

E.G. score is 0-0, dealer turns down the (Card_9-D)

You have (Card_K-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_K-C) (Card_J-S)

That's a great hand to pass. You have approx 2 tricks if seat 2 calls black, and as the adage goes, never call next marginal when you have reverse next blocked.

2) I would be cautious about trying to hand read Seat 1 based on his pass. IMO, roughly 95% of all euchre players don't approach the game correctly mostly becuz they are too scared to get euchred. So I would never assume he has all suits blocked or reverse next blocked if he passes. You're basically assuming he plays seat 1 well. Combining euchre app + real life, I have played with thousands of people. I can literally count on one hand how many play seat 1 well. So trying to hand read based on that assumption is going to lead you astray the vast majority of time unless you have a really strong player read to begin with.
RedDuke wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:08 pm
Never pass in first seat second round if you don't have everything blocked!
So given the above, I would say this statement is too strict. There are hand combos where you don't have next blocked that you can pass, however up 9-7/9-6 I'm never passing unless I have all suits blocked. I'm never gonna let a hail mary loner beat me in that spot when the worst case scenario is I call and go set and still have the deal at 9-9 as a 2-1 favorite.

My hypothesis is if you're in seat 1 and the dealer passes, the correct strategy is to always call something if you don't block reverse next except when you're up 9-8 or tied 8-8. There's no way I can prove that hypothesis is correct but I've been testing it for 10 to 20 thousand games and it's worked out really well, I've also pissed off a lot of partners too tho :)

Richardb02
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:12 pm
jblowery wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:30 pm
This seems to happen a lot. Typical situation. Let's say that diamonds was turned down. Im in the first seat and I have rt+1:

(Card_J-H) (Card_Q-H) (Card_K-D) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C) or something like that. No aces.
Absolute must call in next. When your enemy turns down a red card and all you have is a Qs and a 10c in black you should be really nervous about the possibility of a 2 seat, 2nd rd reverse next loner. Your hand isn't the greatest but it's actually a pretty strong next call. Even up 9-8, I'd probably still call hearts. This call makes a point often enough. And up 9-8, with a near dead hand in every other suit, I wouldn't wanna risk a 2 seat call closing out the game.

Also, to drive home how often I call next here, let's change your hand a tad. let's say you had this hand at 0-0 after a diamond was turned down:

(Card_Q-D) (Card_10-D) (Card_Q-H) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-C)

I would still call next, and lead the Qh hoping to hit my partner hard. This is almost a pure donation play but I think it's worth it when you have a near dead hand because you're just so likely to lose 2 points on a 2 seat call anyways when you have no way to help your partner, so you might as well call next yourself becuz at least you'll block all 4 point sweeps from the 2 spot.
Wes, I want to challenge you first, as a high level player.
Then I want to respond to jblowery, as a slightly less skilled player.
Please bear with me.

Wes, I evaluated the hand as 2.75, using the BPS, which exceeds the 2.25 threshold for a call in Next. So your odds of winning the hand is 2 tads (a tad being equal to 0.25 points above the threshold of 2.25). If I convert that to odds, 2.25 points means I have a 2 to 1 advantage, or a 67% chance of earning a point. If the hand evaluates at 2.50 points, my odds have increased, arguably, lets say a 76% chance of earning a point. If the evaluation is 2.75 points, as it the case with the 1st hand, then there is an 85% chance (again it's arguable) of earning a point. If I am strong in Next, as validated by the 2.75 evaluation, then I am going to be weak in blocking Reverse Next. So, in general, based on typical card distribution, an inherent characteristic of the BPS, then calling is, "an absolute must call in next," to quote you, Wes. If you want to analyze further, as an Advanced player like Wes, you would have to find 3 tads against calling, to overcome the power of 2.75 points in Next. That exception would require blocking both Reverse Calls and an adverse score (3 tads or 0.75 points). That is not the case in the 1st hand. The short version, is that I agree with your analysis, on the 1st hand.

Wes, your 2nd hand evaluates as 1.75 points. That is too weak to call. Of course if you are hell bent on donating, your approach, you disagree. So let's see if there is a more nuanced approach. I suggest that not blocking one Reverse Next Loner is worth a tad (0.25) points and not blocking the 2nd Reverse Next is worth another tad (0.25 points, 2.25 points total), This would be the minimum 2.25 points to call from Seat 1, Round 2. This is an edge call. I would evaluate further. The score is the next consideration. If the Opponents have 6 or 7 points, I would add another tad (0.25 points, 2.50 points total), and I definitely would Donate. But, if the score is not critical, Opponents having 6 or 7 points and able to win the game with a Loner, I would pass. (I can see another exception if we have 9 points and the Opponents have 5 or less. I would call). So I respectably disagree that we should donate 100% of the time with your 2nd hand.

This is also an opportunity for me to disagree with your "Avoid Technical Mistakes" philosophy, "IE Every time you play your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone’s hand.”. You use it when evaluating passing, but fail to use it when evaluating passing. That is why I prefer to call it "Total Expectations," instead of "Avoid Technical Mistakes." I have a Total Expectation that if my hand is weak (1.75 points indicates a weak hand), then someone else has a strong hand. So my Partner has a 1/3 chance of having a strong hand. If we include the unexposed cards, and the unexposed cards hold the strong cards, then that is in my favor. So we come back to there being a 1/3rd chance that Partner calls or everyone passes. Why should we eliminate that 1/3rd possibility from our evaluation?

Let me point out that Wes plays higher quality competitors than I play. His higher quality competitors would require Wes being more aggressive in Donating than my mediocre competitors. (BTW that is easily addressed using a point system). My significant disagreement is that Donating 100% of the time is not always the best decision.

Jblowery, if you are still with me, I sense you are more on my level than Wes' and RedDuke's level. That is still a high level or you wouldn't be making quality posts on OE. Honestly, I cannot perform all this analysis in real time, in real games. But I don't have to unless I am playing against Wes or his equal. All I have to do is outplay my competition. That is a winning formula. I recommend that you focus on a quality analysis of the basics: Seat, Round, Cards, Voids, Card Combinations, Next, Reverse Next, the Up Card and Critical Scores, which are readily observed. Leave the advanced analysis alone until you have mastered the basics. The BPS simply assigns a number to each observation. It simplifies and speeds up the analysis of 80 to 90% of the hands. It also increases your confidence when making your decisions. It is not perfect but neither is too much analysis. Euchre is a game of chance and the cards may simply be stacked against you. But I have found that the BPS generally agrees with the experts on this site. That only makes sense since my BPS reflects information from this site!

The acid test, from your perspective, are the BPS recommendations for your 3 questions. They are straightforward and definitive. The BPS is straightforward to apply to other hands Try the BPS out against your competition and determine for yourself whether your success improves or not.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:51 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm
Wes, your 2nd hand evaluates as 1.75 points. That is too weak to call. Of course if you are hell bent on donating, your approach, you disagree.

Yes, it's clearly too weak to call in a vacuum. Which is why it's effectively a donation.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm
So let's see if there is a more nuanced approach. I suggest that not blocking one Reverse Next Loner is worth a tad (0.25) points and not blocking the 2nd Reverse Next is worth another tad (0.25 points, 2.25 points total), This would be the minimum 2.25 points to call from Seat 1, Round 2. This is an edge call. I would evaluate further. The score is the next consideration. If the Opponents have 6 or 7 points, I would add another tad (0.25 points, 2.50 points total), and I definitely would Donate. But, if the score is not critical, Opponents having 6 or 7 points and able to win the game with a Loner, I would pass. (I can see another exception if we have 9 points and the Opponents have 5 or less. I would call). So I respectably disagree that we should donate 100% of the time with your 2nd hand.

I certainly can understand anyone disagreeing with this donate. It is a controversial play and I have no way of proving my case through math. That said, there is also no point system that can settle this debate either. For controversial spots like this I just tell people what I would do and they are free to accept or reject it. I would never get in a real debate over these spots, but I also think there is value in just saying what I would do. If a player never thought about calling in this spot before, and now they just seen that I would, that alone can spur productive thought.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm
This is also an opportunity for me to disagree with your "Avoid Technical Mistakes" philosophy, "IE Every time you play your hand in a way that you would not if you could see everyone’s hand.”. You use it when evaluating passing, but fail to use it when evaluating passing. That is why I prefer to call it "Total Expectations," instead of "Avoid Technical Mistakes."

The idea of "avoiding technical mistakes" really only applies to seat 3, first rd decisions becuz it is often the case that you are not compelled to call. The exception being you have a loner or a sure point hand that is not a euchre hand. Most of the time in euchre you ARE compelled to call for offensive or defensive reasons (technically it's always a mixture of both but you know what I mean). When you are compelled to call, technical mistakes are irrelevant.
Seat 3, first rd is a different animal becuz you often have a real choice to make.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm
I have a Total Expectation that if my hand is weak (1.75 points indicates a weak hand), then someone else has a strong hand. So my Partner has a 1/3 chance of having a strong hand. If we include the unexposed cards, and the unexposed cards hold the strong cards, then that is in my favor. So we come back to there being a 1/3rd chance that Partner calls or everyone passes. Why should we eliminate that 1/3rd possibility from our evaluation?
My strategy does assume that seat 2 is a competent player, not an expert becuz practically no one is, but competent. I assume Seat 2 is not gonna pass a biddable hand or just call with a loner, and I assume that Seat 2 will loosen up their calling range in reverse next to try to hit their partner. That last assumption is certainly shaky I'll admit. That means with our crappy holding--which in itself increases the likelihood that seat 2 has a monster holding or a calling hand that gets 1 or 2 points--the chances of seat 2 passing is very small. So small that for the sake of simplicity we should ignore how often our partner has a strong hand, and we should consider it our job as a good teammate to often try to get around seat 2 by calling weak trying to hit our partner's range as much as feasible. In this case I'm donating in next becuz this call best hits my partner's range. There's no way I'm passing the ball to seat 2 when I have a nothing hand that blocks nothing. I'd rather call and try to hit my partner. Those times this donate stops a 2 seat 4 point, 2 point, 1 point play hopefully makes up for all the euchres. I believe it does, but I can't prove it. What I will say is this, ANYONE who disagrees with my thinking at 0-0 better be making this call when your team has a nice lead. Not donating in that case would be egregious.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm
Let me point out that Wes plays higher quality competitors than I play. His higher quality competitors would require Wes being more aggressive in Donating than my mediocre competitors. (BTW that is easily addressed using a point system). My significant disagreement is that Donating 100% of the time is not always the best decision.
At 0-0 I am always donating in next, but yeah I mean if your grandma is in seat 2 and she barely ever goes alone and passes biddables all the time, certainly that can change things. So to be exact: With no reads, I am always donating in next at 0-0 with that holding.

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