Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

Ask questions, discuss and debate your strategies, euchre polls and more
Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm

(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?



Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm

(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?

RedDuke
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:03 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
Left-Ace plus an ace in every other suit? I'm calling.
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
From seat 2, I'm passing that. Let your partner decide what to do. You have an okay helper hand, but not strong enough to call it and step on a loner from your partner.

Whoops, thought this was a first round call. Honestly, I'm still passing that in the second round. The hand doesn't have any one suit that stands out as being particularly strong so I'd rather lean on my partner to call whatever his strongest suit is.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
I go alone. BTW keep all three aces if you do go alone (I.E. discard the Kh). The idea of discarding an ace to better survive that first lead is only valid for loners that can't go set or have a very low probability of going set. With more marginal loners, the more aces you have the better becuz if you lose control of the hand--which will happen--that extra ace can save you.

I can't prove that going alone with Left + 1 + 3 off aces is correct, but that's honestly irrelevant to me becuz I simply don't have the ability to just call with that hand. Gamble gamble.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
When I made my quiz I purposely tried (for the most part) to stay away from super marginal hands like this. I certainly wanted my quiz to be tricky but also relatively non-controversial.

But that said, with hands like the above, I'm just gonna tell you what i would do. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to speak with confidence on what is correct. And what I would do is call Diamonds. At a neutral score, with a hand that blocks nothing, I'm not passing a reverse next call with 1 trump and two off aces.

Edit: Exception to the above: If seat 1 is a pro, then I'm passing. The logic being that a pro is not passing in the 2nd round if they don't block reverse next. If that's the case than trying to hit your partner with 1 trump reverse next calls is not gonna end well for you. But keep in my mind, this "pro" we're talking about is mostly mythical. Out of the approximately 10K people that daily play on my app, maybe 5-10 are pros. That's around .1% of the euchre population.

Plz be polite and ignore the circular reasoning behind my assertion!
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:49 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:37 pm
Let's find a couple Seat 4, Round 1 "Edge" calls.

Up (Card_K-S) Seat 4 Score Neutral Players equal and average
(Card_Q-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H)
The BPS Evaluation after discarding Qd:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.50 Ac
2.00 Total points, which is my "definitely call" edge. So I would call.

1.75 Total points, is my "consider" edge. My main consideration is, do I have Kx trump or higher? If yes I would call.
Would you call or pass on this hand?
Definitely the edgiest of edge hands. I call too. At neutral scores, I don't pass two trump + a singleton next ace from the dealer spot when I block nothing. Am I super confident in this call. No.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:37 pm
Lets look at 1 trump and 2 Aces:
Up (Card_K-S) Seat 4 Score Neutral Players equal and average
(Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-C)
The BPS Evaluation after discarding Tc:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ks
0.50 Ad
0.75 Ah (Singleton Green Ace)
-.50 Only 1 trump
1.75 Which means is "consider" call. Singleton K trump is weaker than K9. So I would pass.
Would you call or pass on this hand?
I pass. Off the top of my head the only 1 trump combos I'm making as the dealer include the Right bower.

That said I think it's fine to try a hail mary loner down 9-6 with a hand like this (spades being trump):

(Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_A-C)

RedDuke
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
I go alone. BTW keep all three aces if you do go alone (I.E. discard the Kh). The idea of discarding an ace to better survive that first lead is only valid for loners that can't go set or have a very low probability of going set. With more marginal loners, the more aces you have the better becuz if you lose control of the hand--which will happen--that extra ace can save you.

I can't prove that going alone with Left + 1 + 3 off aces is correct, but that's honestly irrelevant to me becuz I simply don't have the ability to just call with that hand. Gamble gamble.
I actually had the same thought about trying that as a loner and discarding the King of Hearts. Not sure I'd try it at a neutral score but if my side was down 7-2 or something like that, I'd give it a shot.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
When I made my quiz I purposely tried (for the most part) to stay away from super marginal hands like this. I certainly wanted my quiz to be tricky but also relatively non-controversial.

But that said, with hands like the above, I'm just gonna tell you what i would do. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to speak with confidence on what is correct. And what I would do is call Diamonds. At a neutral score, with a hand that blocks nothing, I'm not passing a reverse next call with 1 trump and two off aces.

Edit: Exception to the above: If seat 1 is a pro, then I'm passing. The logic being that a pro is not passing in the 2nd round if they don't block reverse next. If that's the case than trying to hit your partner with 1 trump reverse next calls is not gonna end well for you. But keep in my mind, this "pro" we're talking about is mostly mythical. Out of the approximately 10K people that daily play on my app, maybe 5-10 are pros. That's around .1% of the euchre population.

Plz be polite and ignore the circular reasoning behind my assertion!
Why not call hearts there instead? You're hoping that your partner has at least one bower with the reverse next call and statistically that's a good bet. You're stronger in Hearts than Diamonds.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:20 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
I go alone. BTW keep all three aces if you do go alone (I.E. discard the Kh). The idea of discarding an ace to better survive that first lead is only valid for loners that can't go set or have a very low probability of going set. With more marginal loners, the more aces you have the better becuz if you lose control of the hand--which will happen--that extra ace can save you.

I can't prove that going alone with Left + 1 + 3 off aces is correct, but that's honestly irrelevant to me becuz I simply don't have the ability to just call with that hand. Gamble gamble.
I actually had the same thought about trying that as a loner and discarding the King of Hearts. Not sure I'd try it at a neutral score but if my side was down 7-2 or something like that, I'd give it a shot.

Let's see what happens with the BPS:
0.50 Seat 3
0.50 Qs
0.75 Right
0.75 Ad
0.50 Ac
0.50 Ah
0.50 2 Trump & 2 or more Aces
4.00 with 3.50 edge,3.75 definite, 4.00 almost no doubt but:

In general, you call Alones when the card distribution is unbalanced. The BPS's very foundation assumes a reasonable average card distribution. So the BPS is not a strong call a loner indicator. Therefore, when considering calling a loner, I look at a wide range from 3.50 to 4.25 points. I then look for other factors. The first is always to picture how the cards will play out. I see a path to 5 tricks. I see only minimal chances of being euchred. But, the biggest factor, for this hand, is that my hand is balanced to the max! That increases the odds that the other hands are balanced. That increases the odds that my Aces will take enough tricks for 3 to 5 points. I agree with your Loner call Wes.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:22 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
When I made my quiz I purposely tried (for the most part) to stay away from super marginal hands like this. I certainly wanted my quiz to be tricky but also relatively non-controversial.

But that said, with hands like the above, I'm just gonna tell you what i would do. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to speak with confidence on what is correct. And what I would do is call Diamonds. At a neutral score, with a hand that blocks nothing, I'm not passing a reverse next call with 1 trump and two off aces.

Edit: Exception to the above: If seat 1 is a pro, then I'm passing. The logic being that a pro is not passing in the 2nd round if they don't block reverse next. If that's the case than trying to hit your partner with 1 trump reverse next calls is not gonna end well for you. But keep in my mind, this "pro" we're talking about is mostly mythical. Out of the approximately 10K people that daily play on my app, maybe 5-10 are pros. That's around .1% of the euchre population.

Plz be polite and ignore the circular reasoning behind my assertion!
Let's see if BPS agrees:
0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.75 Reverse Next Diamonds
0.50 Kd
0.50 Kc
0.75 Ah
-.50 1 Trump
2.75 and 2.00 is enough for a call from Seat 2

0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.00 Next Spades
0.25 9s
0.50 Ks
0.50 Ac
0.75 Ah
2.75 is identical. Tie

What it boils down to is the power of Hoyle vs. the value of a 2nd trump.
I've assigned a value of Reverse Next from Seat 2 as 0.75 (a potential 0.75 trick)
I've assessed a penalty of -0.50 when calling with a single trump.
That works out to a net of 0.25 for Reverse Next

But there is value to the 2nd trump of 0.25 points, when calling next.
Hence, a tie.

I suggest:
The value of Hoyle (Reverse Next from Seat 2) is 3 tads (0.75)
The negative value of a single trump is negative 2 tads (-.50)
The value of a 9 or T of trump is 1 tad (0.25)
This hand reflects a balance point of good Hoyle vs. 1 Trump
(assuming 2 trump is neutral and 3 trump is strong)
Also. 2.75 points is a "well above edge" call from Seat 2. In fact it is 3 tads above the edge. BTW, an edge call means that I will be satisfied if I am euchred less than 33% of the time! The 2.75 points means, in my "guestimate", that I have a 95% chance of taking 2 tricks (and a possibility of taking 2.75 tricks). So I must count on my partner for his trick (or portion of a trick). I suggest that you can count on your partner for 1 trick 80% of the time. Mix that together and I expect to get my point 85% of the time with 2.75 points and euchred the other 15% of the time.

Every player is assigning "value" to an observation about their hand and situation. The BPS goes one small step further and assigns a numerical value to the observation. I feel that the BPS tracks the wisdom of Ohio Euchre systematically and with universally understood numbers. What do you think?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:11 am

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
I actually had the same thought about trying that as a loner and discarding the King of Hearts. Not sure I'd try it at a neutral score but if my side was down 7-2 or something like that, I'd give it a shot.
I would go alone with it at every score except when my team is at 8/9 points. Another reason to consider adding this loner to your arsenal at a neutral score is those times you get set with it you probably would've went set even if you had called. I mean think about it, you already have all the aces. To get euchred with this hand means your opponents had to be super heavy in trump. In that case it's hard to imagine your partner having that key card that would've saved you had you just called. I mean it's possible but that's a very rare parlay. Now one might think, "yeah but if we just call and bring our partner along surely we will get 2 points more often. There is some value in that!" But is there really? In theory at least if your partner had Right + 1 he should've called himself so we shouldn't count on this holding being there that often, and if your partner has just the Right and you somehow knew that, that would only make you wanna go alone even more anyways! So yeah, I'm not trying to say bringing your partner along won't increase your chances of getting 2 points, just saying it ain't by much.
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
Why not call hearts there instead? You're hoping that your partner has at least one bower with the reverse next call and statistically that's a good bet. You're stronger in Hearts than Diamonds.
I don't see a big difference between having the Ah vs having the Kd, but there is a big difference between having 1 off ace vs having 2, so that's why I'm going with diamonds. Also, those times our partner has just the Right, we are way more likely to get lucky and eke out a point with 2 off aces. In fact change the Kd to the 9d and I'm still calling diamonds with 2 off aces vs going with the Ah and one off ace.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:29 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:11 am
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
Why not call hearts there instead? You're hoping that your partner has at least one bower with the reverse next call and statistically that's a good bet. You're stronger in Hearts than Diamonds.
I don't see a big difference between having the Ah vs having the Kd, but there is a big difference between having 1 off ace vs having 2, so that's why I'm going with diamonds. Also, those times our partner has just the Right, we are way more likely to get lucky and eke out a point with 2 off aces. In fact change the Kd to the 9d and I'm still calling diamonds with 2 off aces vs going with the Ah and one off ace.
Call Hearts:
0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.75 Reverse Next Hearts
0.50 Ah
0.75 Ac
-.50 1 Trump
2.25 Weaker than the 2.75 for a call in Spades or Diamonds.

The point total of 2.25 precisely reflects, in single number, Wes' analysis of calling hearts vs calling diamonds. The BPS just quantifies (assigns a numeric value) to easily observed situations in the hand (Seat, Round, Individual cards, card combinations, voids, end game scores and calling Alones). BPS Advanced will address less easily observed situations (blocking, Round 2, early game scores, blocking, Euchre hands and more)

General question? When counting cards, what exactly do you count? I track 4 numbers: trump, maker's trump, maker's Aces{Bosses}, maker's losers). So if Opponent called, a typical count is 7,3,1,1. All 7 trump were played. Maker had 3 trump, 1 Ace and 1 loser. I keep track of the Boss in the 3 off suits.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:27 pm

Going Against Hoyle,
Based on Ohio Euchre Tips:
https://ohioeuchre.com/E_fishing-for-Euchre-trump.php
Round 2 Seat 1 (Card_9-C) Down
Your Hand:
(Card_A-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-H)
Ohio Euchre (Don Bunn) suggests "Going Against Hoyle" with this hand
BPS Calculations:
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Round 2
0.00 Going Against Hoyle (Reverse Next)
0.25 9h
0.25 Th
0.50 Qh
0.75 Ac (Singleton Green Ace, but Next Ace)
0.50 3 Trumps, no Bowers
2.75 Total Points, 2.25 minimum to call, so Call, per BPS

The "Tips" lesson goes on to show earning the point. The lesson is actually titled, "Fishing for Trump".

Would you call or pass?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:38 am

When I block no suits I call so loosely from seat 1, 2nd rd that going against hoyle with the 3 lowest trump + an off ace seems like a monster.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am

Does, "seems like a monster" mean that it is a strong and powerful hand, relative to the situation?

Lets get a little deeper into blocking. You would have to block 3 suits in Round 2 to block, (definitely stop a Loner from getting 4 points), everything. With the hand as shown you block no suits. Agreed?

Do you vary your loosening depending on the number of suits that you block? o you vary based on blocking Next or Reverse Next suits?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:00 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
Does, "seems like a monster" mean that it is a strong and powerful hand, relative to the situation?
Yes, relative to my calling range in that spot (when I block nothing) I am super happy with that hand.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
Lets get a little deeper into blocking. You would have to block 3 suits in Round 2 to block, (definitely stop a Loner from getting 4 points), everything. With the hand as shown you block no suits. Agreed?
Yes, we block nothing.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
Do you vary your loosening depending on the number of suits that you block?


Yes. When you block nothing you MUST call super loose from 1 seat, 2nd rd at most scores. This is a concept that very few people understand or apply well, but in my opinion it is the most important concept in the game, and this is why seat 1 is the most important seat in the game becuz Seat 1, 2nd rd is where this concept comes up the most.

A quick aside: Remember you can't really loosen up your game much in the 1st round. In the first round the upcard dictates the action whether we like it or not. We can only make minor tweaks to our play in the 1st rd depending on which suits we block/don't block.

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
o you vary based on blocking Next or Reverse Next suits?
I have a hypothesis that I live and die by and it's worked out well: If you block nothing in seat 1, 2nd rd, always call something except when you're up 9-8, or tied 8-8--At those scores you gotta tighten up for obvious reasons.

This philosophy can lead to some rather crazy looking calls, and when things don't go your way expect your partner to get pissed. The reason why I play this way is it is my belief that when you block nothing the theoretical cost of getting euchred is so low (becuz you'll be blocking so many 2 pt, 4 pt, and 1 pt plays) that it's worth taking the risk on many otherwise dubious holdings.

I can distill seat 1, 2nd rd further. If I don't block reverse next, I will always force a call in something except at up 9-8 or 8-8. So saying what I would do when we block nothing is actually redundant since that's covered automatically when we don't block reverse next.

Example hand I just played in my Thursday tournament:

My team is up 4-1. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-H)

I have (Card_Q-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_J-S) in the 1 seat.

Becuz the dealer is a very aggressive player, I decided to make a highly questionable pass, hoping he would pick up. Alas, he did not. Notice I don't block reverse next (and i also don't block 2 out of the 3 remaining suits). There is no way i'm passing the ball to seat 2 under these circumstances. I can't do that to my team. So then it comes down to should I call next with just the left and nothing else or go against Hoyle with Right + 1 and nothing else (at least I'm 2 suited tho). I decided our team's best chances of scratching out a point was to call spades. My partner had no trump but somehow we barely made the point anyways. But whether I made the point or not is irrelevant.

The most important take away is this: Becuz you MUST protect your team--that is seat 1's critical job--you only have two decisions with this hand: Call hearts in the 1st round or pass with the intention of calling spades. There is no other alternative. You can never pass-pass in this spot, that would be horrible seat 1 play.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sun May 05, 2019 9:30 pm

Tough Dealer Decision
(Card_9-D) Up, Round 1; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
Hand (Card_A-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_K-S)
Order Up or Pass?

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:05 pm

This is an extremely well read post! There have been over 3,100 views, since February!!

I still use the BPS (Bidding Point System) with only minor changes. Obviously I’m happy with the results. I’m curious if:
anyone is using BPS,
what you like about it,
what you dislike and
if you dismissed the BPS completely, what works for you?

I’m looking forward to responding to your remarks.

WolfHills
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: Abingdon VA

Post by WolfHills » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:27 pm

Great thread. I have learned a lot.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:22 pm

Thanks WolfHills for your post. Have you tried using BPS in games? It only takes me a second or two.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:47 am

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 pm
That's a lot to digest. I suggest that you try some sample hands. Post them and I will be glad to work through the system with them. I'm sure everyone will provide me refinements to make this system work even more effectively.
Out of curiosity I'm trying to use your system to work through a hand. Let me know if I make any mistakes. Ok the hand in question:

Score is 0-0. The dealer turned down the (Card_Q-H). I'm in Seat 1 with:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-D)

What's the better call according to your system. Next or Spades? Ok, here I go.

Value of Diamond call:
S1 R2 Next call: +.75
Right Bower: +1.00
Ad: +.50
2 voids: +.50
Total value: 2.75

Value of Spade call:
S1 R2 any call: +.25
2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand: +.75
Ks: +.50
Qs: +.50
Ts: +.25
Having 3 trump: +.50
Doubleton green ace: +.50
Total value: 3.25

Did I do this right? Would you call spades or diamonds in this spot? (That last question is not just addressed to Richard but everyone)

Tbolt65
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:26 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:47 am
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 pm
That's a lot to digest. I suggest that you try some sample hands. Post them and I will be glad to work through the system with them. I'm sure everyone will provide me refinements to make this system work even more effectively.
Out of curiosity I'm trying to use your system to work through a hand. Let me know if I make any mistakes. Ok the hand in question:

Score is 0-0. The dealer turned down the (Card_Q-H). I'm in Seat 1 with:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-D)

What's the better call according to your system. Next or Spades? Ok, here I go.

Value of Diamond call:
S1 R2 Next call: +.75
Right Bower: +1.00
Ad: +.50
2 voids: +.50
Total value: 2.75

Value of Spade call:
S1 R2 any call: +.25
2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand: +.75
Ks: +.50
Qs: +.50
Ts: +.25
Having 3 trump: +.50
Doubleton green ace: +.50
Total value: 3.25

Did I do this right? Would you call spades or diamonds in this spot? (That last question is not just addressed to Richard but everyone)
Well.......

First I have to assess or know my partners tendicies. Do they call in 3rd with any three or perhaps with two trump? Do they bag and expect hoyle? If they call in 3rd seat first round more than they pass, I'd call spades. If it's the latter than I'd call diamonds/next.

If no read at all. I'D probably just default to hoyle at a neutral score of 0-0.

So depending on what reads I have or rather information. Then I would proceed accordingly.

If you are my partner Wes, I'd call diamonds. I'd still call diamonds if no reads most likely. If I know my partners mostly calls in 3rd seat 1st round then this might be the only time I call spades.

Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:43 am

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:26 am
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:47 am
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 pm
That's a lot to digest. I suggest that you try some sample hands. Post them and I will be glad to work through the system with them. I'm sure everyone will provide me refinements to make this system work even more effectively.
Out of curiosity I'm trying to use your system to work through a hand. Let me know if I make any mistakes.

I greatly appreciate you testing my BPS. You applied it well but not perfectly. With a little practice you can apply the BPS as quickly as your current approach. The topics with the errors:
S1 R2 has 2 components:
0.50 S1 R2
0.75 S1 R2Next

0.75 2 Voids. 1 Void earns 0.25, but 2 Voids earn 0.75.

0.50 S1 R2 "Any Call" [0.25 for S1 R1, 0.50 for S1 R2]


Ok the hand in question:

Score is 0-0. The dealer turned down the (Card_Q-H). I'm in Seat 1 with:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-D)

What's the better call according to your system. Next or Spades? Ok, here I go.

Value of Diamond call:
S1 R2 Next call: +.75
Right Bower: +1.00
Ad: +.50
2 voids: +.50
Total value: 2.75

0.50 S1 R2
0.75 S1 R2 Next
1.00 Right,, Jd
0.50 Ad
0.75 Value of 2 Voids aka 2 Suited, [Note: 1 Void = .25]
3.50 Total Value


Value of Spade call:
S1 R2 any call: +.25
2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand: +.75
Ks: +.50
Qs: +.50
Ts: +.25
Having 3 trump: +.50
Doubleton green ace: +.50
Total value: 3.25

0.50 S1 R2
0.00 S1 R2 Reverse Next
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.25 Ts
0.50 Ad
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.50 3 Weak Trump
3.50 Total Value

The BPS produced a tie. You have found an "Edge" hand between Next and Reverse Next. What I would do here,(ignoring rating the players, I will cover that separately), is look at factors (observable situations), that are a tad too weak to use in the BPS. First, KQT of trump (spades) is very weak (-0.125). Second, Right, Ace of trump (diamonds) is very strong (+0.125). Third, no matter your partner, they will be more comfortable with Next. So am calling Next on this hand because of these 3 weak factors.

Did I do this right? Would you call spades or diamonds in this spot? (That last question is not just addressed to Richard but everyone)
Well.......

First I have to assess or know my partners tendicies. Do they call in 3rd with any three or perhaps with two trump? Do they bag and expect hoyle? If they call in 3rd seat first round more than they pass, I'd call spades. If it's the latter than I'd call diamonds/next.

If no read at all. I'D probably just default to hoyle at a neutral score of 0-0.

So depending on what reads I have or rather information. Then I would proceed accordingly.

If you are my partner Wes, I'd call diamonds. I'd still call diamonds if no reads most likely. If I know my partners mostly calls in 3rd seat 1st round then this might be the only time I call spades.

Tbolt65
Edward
I treat reading players like any other factor. So my base rating is 0.25(plus or minus). The limit is more important than the number (96% of the time). A weak bidder and/or poor player is also erratic and undependable so not worthy of more than 0.25 worth of consideration.

For the rare 4% situation where the player is strong, then I would have a maximum 0.50 limit. We can even take this out to the extremely rare 1% situation, strong player, your partner (a strong opponent may deceive you),and you have played together often enough that you confidently understand their tendencies, then would still cap any adjustment to 0.75.

Limiting the value of easily observable situations is a key theme of the BPS. It minimizes emotional decision making but allows going with your gut (still emotional decisions) when the decision is close.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:25 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:43 am
I greatly appreciate you testing my BPS. You applied it well but not perfectly. With a little practice you can apply the BPS as quickly as your current approach. The topics with the errors:
S1 R2 has 2 components:
0.50 S1 R2
0.75 S1 R2Next

0.75 2 Voids. 1 Void earns 0.25, but 2 Voids earn 0.75.

0.50 S1 R2 "Any Call" [0.25 for S1 R1, 0.50 for S1 R2]


Ok the hand in question:

Score is 0-0. The dealer turned down the (Card_Q-H). I'm in Seat 1 with:

(Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_10-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_J-D)

What's the better call according to your system. Next or Spades? Ok, here I go.

Value of Diamond call:
S1 R2 Next call: +.75
Right Bower: +1.00
Ad: +.50
2 voids: +.50
Total value: 2.75

0.50 S1 R2
0.75 S1 R2 Next
1.00 Right,, Jd
0.50 Ad
0.75 Value of 2 Voids aka 2 Suited, [Note: 1 Void = .25]
3.50 Total Value


Value of Spade call:
S1 R2 any call: +.25
2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand: +.75
Ks: +.50
Qs: +.50
Ts: +.25
Having 3 trump: +.50
Doubleton green ace: +.50
Total value: 3.25

0.50 S1 R2
0.00 S1 R2 Reverse Next
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.25 Ts
0.50 Ad
0.75 2 Voids, 2 Suited
0.50 3 Weak Trump
3.50 Total Value

The BPS produced a tie. You have found an "Edge" hand between Next and Reverse Next. What I would do here,(ignoring rating the players, I will cover that separately), is look at factors (observable situations), that are a tad too weak to use in the BPS. First, KQT of trump (spades) is very weak (-0.125). Second, Right, Ace of trump (diamonds) is very strong (+0.125). Third, no matter your partner, they will be more comfortable with Next. So am calling Next on this hand because of these 3 weak factors.
Good stuff Richard. Thanks. I find it intuitively pleasing that it's a tie. That's exactly what I would've thought. Too close to call.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:32 pm

Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:26 am
Well.......

First I have to assess or know my partners tendicies. Do they call in 3rd with any three or perhaps with two trump? Do they bag and expect hoyle? If they call in 3rd seat first round more than they pass, I'd call spades. If it's the latter than I'd call diamonds/next.
I like this a lot. If they call too much from 3rd, 1st rd, veer towards Spades. If they bag in 3rd expecting hoyle, call diamonds. So if Molly is your partner call spades (molly is someone from our tournament who calls from 3rd, 1st rd too much). If I'm your partner call diamonds. Great post Edward.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:07 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:32 pm
Tbolt65 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:26 am
Well.......

First I have to assess or know my partners tendicies. Do they call in 3rd with any three or perhaps with two trump? Do they bag and expect hoyle? If they call in 3rd seat first round more than they pass, I'd call spades. If it's the latter than I'd call diamonds/next.
I like this a lot. If they call too much from 3rd, 1st rd, veer towards Spades. If they bag in 3rd expecting hoyle, call diamonds. So if Molly is your partner call spades (molly is someone from our tournament who calls from 3rd, 1st rd too much). If I'm your partner call diamonds. Great post Edward.
I will agree with the logic of Tbolt’s statement and acknowledge that Wes agrees. This less experienced player will then respectfully disagree. (It may be the drugs talking after my successful hip replacement).

The foundation of BPS and my disagreement is that card distribution will trump player tendencies the vast majority of the time. 1.Card distribution is reliably observed. 2. Tendencies are not only difficult to observe, but the observation is less reliable and (3) tendencies are subject to change. Reminds me of discussions about “technical errors.” BTW, this is a S3 discussion! I recall a very experienced player stating, “technical errors are much more prevalent and “outcome changing,” from S3 than any other seat”. BTW, I am paraphrasing Wes.

Even with Wes’ superior knowledge about his tendencies, I suggest that CD (Card Distribution) is much more important.

From my post, “BPS produced a tie. You have found an "Edge" hand between Next and Reverse Next. What I would do here,(ignoring rating the players, I will cover that separately), is look at factors (observable situations), that are a tad too weak to use in the BPS. First, KQT of trump (spades) is very weak (-0.125). Second, Right, Ace of trump (diamonds) is very strong (+0.125). Third, no matter your partner, they will be more comfortable with Next. So am calling Next on this hand because of these 3 weak factors.


In addition, from a combination view point: 3 weak trump & an off suit Ax are clearly better than 2 strong trump and 3 weak off suit cards. Don’t forget that being 2 suited (2 voids) produces 0.75 points of the 3.50 points. So you must have enough trump to take advantage of the 2 voids! Yes, I am being Captain Obvious but this point gets lost in most analyses! In fact, 3 trump being better than 2 trump, is clearly a theme in Don’s OE lessons. I have answered a number of posts that are comparing 3 weak trump to 2 strong trump. Players simply miss this simple factor. So I suggest +0.375 or more for this hand over and above the 3.50 for times when you want to analyze this deeply.

There is another factor that I consider more important than player tendencies. That is score. If our team is down 6-8, 6-9, or 3 or more points at other scores, I would pass if Wes or Tbolt were my partner. We need a Loner. Period.

Finally, I am not in the same class as Wes or Tbolt. The purpose Of this post, is to remind myself, and other players not in their league, that their posts are often talking about scenarios that occur less than 1% of the time. Appreciate the wisdom that they provide. Absorb and use what you can. Keep reviewing all the information. It will make more and more sense.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah and Happy Holidays everyone. :)

Tbolt65
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:27 pm

I agree with all your factors to take into consideration. In a recent post, 1st seat round 2 call by jblowery, I cover much of this. What I also mentioned is that this is a partnership game. In which I look to hit my partners as much as possible. It's is also a key consideration.

There are times where the hands you are dealt you have to go against convention but going with the gut coupled with experience can help guide you as well.

In the end you just have to make your decision based on what ever information you have or system of play you use. With that said there are times where we pick wrong but when we do we can always go back and critically look at how that situation unfolded and see if we can tweak it any further.


Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:36 pm

BPS.Basic.Minimized [Updated and recalibrated]
Value of Seat & Round
0.25 S1 R1
0.50 S2 R1
0.00 S3 R1
0.50 D4 R1 [Note: the Up Card Value will be added later]

0.50 S1 R2
1.00 S2 R2
0.25 S3 R2
1.00 D4 R2

Value of Cards
1.00 Right [1.00=1 trick]
0.75 Left
0.50 AKQ Trump
0.25 T9 Trump (Low Trump)
0.75 Green Singleton Aces
-.25 for every other card in Green Ace suit
0.50 is the value of a Singleton Black Ace
-.25 for every other card in Black Ace suit
0.25 for 1 Void Suit and you have at least 1 trump
0.75 total for 2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand, but Kx min.

[Don't overthink the system. Keep it simple. The system estimates potential tricks. A Right is worth 1.0 trick It has a 100% chance of taking a trick. No other card has a 100% chance of taking a trick. Therefore, 1.25 points is required for a 95% confidence to take a trick. Every other value is relative to a Right being worth 1.0. The Left has a 60% chance of taking a trick, value 0.75. An A, K or Q of trump has a 40% chance of taking a trick, value 0.50, etc. They are approximations, not precise values. Ordering/bidding when you count 2.5 points in your hand is based on 1. Count on your partner for 1 trick. 2. You then need 2 tricks. 3.You need 2.5 points, nominally, to have a 95% probability of taking 2 tricks. That assumes that you play the cards with approximately the same skill level as Opponents. 4. Nominally, means that you can still adjust the 2.5 points for a minimum order based on your experiences].

My Ordering/bidding minimums
2.25 Pts S1
2.00 Pts S2
2.75 Pts S3 [If S1 proves he leads trump to S3 order, reduce to 2.50]
2.00 Pts D4

Card Combinations
0.75 S1 R2, Next Call
0.75 S2 R 2,Reverse Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 3, Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 4, Reverse Next Call

[Strong trump combinations are very powerful and deserve additional points].
0.25 for Rx Lx
0.50 for any 3 trump
0.75 for 3 trump, 2 out of 3 RLA
1.00 for 3 trump & 2 Boss Trump
1.00 for 4 trump and a Bower or 2
[Weak combinations deserve a deduction
-.50 for 1 Trump
-.75 for 0 Trump

[Trump & Aces deserve additional points].
0.50 2 Trump & Singleton Ace
0.75 2 Trump with 2 or more Off Suit Aces

-0.00 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is 9T
-0.25 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is QKA
-1.00 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is Right
[Seat 1 and 3 have to overcome the value of ordering the Up card into the Dealer's hand. If the Up card is 9 or 10 the net value is 0.0 (the adjustment for Seat 1 & 3 already accounts for the minimal value of calling a 9T trump card into the dealers hand). QKA hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call -.25. A Right hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call -1.0].
Conversely, I will add points from S2 for the Up Card
0.25 for S2 R1, if Up Card is QK or A
0.75 For S2 R1, if Up card is Right (J) BUT:
0.00 if Up Card is R and I want to give D4 a chance for a Loner.

[At this point you can bid your cards relatively confidently. You now need to test your results and ultimately decide whether the BPS is profitable or not.]

[Even basic players, once your understand Partner you can adjust]:
-0.25 for a weak player
+0.25 for a very conservative player (you are bidding for them)
-0.25 if you are the weak player, Opponents are superior

[Even basic players, can confidently order Loners]:
3.75 Points indicates a probable Alone bid. 3.75 points indicates that you almost have a lock on taking 3 tricks. It there are less than 3 single card stoppers, bid Alone. Actually 3.5 stoppers! (Any stopper depending on a parlay, is only 0.50 of a stopper. If you have the R, then a L must be protected, it is a parlay worth only 0.5 as a stopper. An off suit A, Only has a 56% chance of stopping you, it is a parlay worth only 0.50 as a stopper, etc.]

4.00 Points screams bid Alone. [If you are getting euchred at 4 points, you need to stop focusing on bidding and work on playing the hand.]

Basic players can even take the score into account:
[This breaks down to 1. your Opponents having 8 or 9 points. In a 10 point game, if they get 1 or 2 more points, they will win. 2. If your opponents have 6 or 7 points, you should consider that they can win with an Alone. 3. If you are behind by 3 or more points, you need to get back into the game. 4. If you are within 1 or 2 points of winning, loosen up a bit].

+0.25 if Opponents have 9 points, loosen up, it is time to be more aggressive
-0.25 if Opponents have 8 points, if you are euchred you lose the game
+0.50 if Opponents have 6 or 7 points and it is the second round
+0.25 if the score is at a disadvantage
+0.75 if Donating (Calling/ Biding to protect a lead) is appropriate
+0.25 if you have 9 points (loosen your bid to try and end the game)
+0.50 if you have 9 points and your opponent has 6 or 7 points

Basic players can also make adjustments from S1 R1:
X.XX Calculate the value of your R2 hand, especially in Next. If your R2 hand is equal to or stronger Than in R1, then pass, go for 2 points! If Opps pass, call Next in R2. Reverse Next passing is more complicated and is discussed in BPS Advanced.

That is the end of BPS.Basics. I have shared my 1 year of experience utilizing BPS.Basic. IMO, BPS.Basic reflects the OE lessons and wisdom gained from the OE posts with my “added value” of assigning a numerical value to readily available observations. I still apply my “gut instincts” on edge hands (minimum orders) but rely on the BPS when it concludes that I have a 0.25 advantage. My result has been improved results, confidence and enjoyment playing Euchre.

Advanced concepts (80% of the posts on OE) involve less easily observable card combinations and more nuanced values. Key concepts are euchre hands and stopping hands. That can be quantified by looking at Jacks and Aces, nuanced by Green and Black suits. Evaluating Partner and Opponents is next. I have workable definitions and values from a recent thread. Donating is a definiteLy a concept worthy of quantifying. I will be looking for lessons from the “Posters of Fame” on OE, as they discuss their experiences. Being smart is learning from your mistakes. Being wise is learning from other person’s mistakes! One of my 2020 goals is improving my Euchre with BPS.Advanced.2020.

Edit 1/19/2020 changed 0.25 any 2 trump to Rx or Lx
Last edited by Richardb02 on Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:36 am, edited 5 times in total.

Tbolt65
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Post by Tbolt65 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:45 pm

Keep it up Richard. I will help in anyway I can. I like your open approach to the game and willingness to see if their is anyway to improve upon what you already have and what you don't have.

Good luck and may 2020 be a good year for the bps.

Maybe hindsight is 2020. 🤔😊

Tbolt65
Edward

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:08 pm

LOL

:lol: ;) :lol:

After passing my Financial Exam December 16 and having my left hip replacement on December 23, 2019, I am not interested in hindsight. My prophecy for 2020 is:

For those that look ahead and move forward, there will be plenty in twenty twenty.

I appreciate your positive posts and working with me as I advance the BPS.

RedDuke
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:15 am

Richard, I commend you on your hard work.

I just posted the results of a computer simulation that calculated the odds of any particular card winning a trick here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=289

Off-suit aces only have a 50% chance of winning and the ace of next has a 44% chance of winning. That seems a bit out of line with your BPS...

WolfHills
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: Abingdon VA

Post by WolfHills » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:58 am

Richard Thanks I was going to reach out and ask for an update. I appreciate it.

Red Duke thanks for the odds. Ace of next actually seemed high to me. Interesting stuff for sure.

I am thinking it might be better to hold Ace of next for later if you are in Seat 1 (and only ace)

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:15 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:15 am
Richard, I commend you on your hard work.

I just posted the results of a computer simulation that calculated the odds of any particular card winning a trick here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=289

Off-suit aces only have a 50% chance of winning and the ace of next has a 44% chance of winning. That seems a bit out of line with your BPS...
Thank you RedDuke for recognizing the work behind BPS I do appreciate it.

Let's start with a big picture comparison of the simulation vs. BPS, aka the smell test.
So, here's the odds of any given card winning a trick [vs original BPS and updated BPS] :
Simulation__________Orig BPS_____Updated
Right bower 100%____1.00________1.25
Left Bower 76%______0.75________0.60
Ace of trump 53%____0.50________0.40
King of trump 45%___0.50________0.40
Queen of trump 40%_0.50________0.40
Ten of trump 34%____0.25________0.20
Nine of trump 32%___0.25________0.20

Ace of next suit 44%__0.25________0.20_[assuming Ax, which averages A, Ax, AXX]

Ace of green suit 50%_0.50________0.40_[assuming Ax, which averages A, Ax, AXX]

I will state emphatically that the Simulation supports the estimates of BPS. Understand that BPS increments in 0.25 points. So, if Simulation is within 0.125 points of Orig BPS then we have correlation (and 0.156 compared to updated).

Secondly let's discuss when you need to "analyze" your hand prior to ordering or passing. Do you need "analysis" with a very weak hand or a very strong hand? No of course not! You do not need the OE lessons or BPS for those hands. You need additional analysis in the middle, between a weak 2 trick hand to a strong 3 trick hand. BPS inherently is most beneficial in the middle. First, since it estimates potential tricks, the "middle" is easy to define as a hand with a value of 1.75 to 3.50 points. Traditional analysis takes paragraphs to describe the "middle." The relative values used in BPS are focused on middle hand, card combination hands, not single card values, for even greater value. Now stay focused on the goal. If you bid an extra 10 to 25% of the time, earning a net 0.80 points per order, you have achieved your goal of increasing your winning percentage at Euchre.

Third, in just over 2 years, and less than 4,000 games, I play competitively with Dlan, IrishWolf and Wes on Monday night games. Come join us Monday nights, 9PM ET at World of Card Games, for some excellent Euchre. You can also use OE to schedule impromptu games at any time on WoCG. I also suggest that you play ranked games on WoCG You will earn an "Elo" rating that compares you to other players.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:05 pm

As I was making my post, it became apparent to me, that the original BPS reflected the Simulation more than the Updated BPS. The BPS attempts to quantify relative values and even though the Simulation has its shortcoming, the correlation is too strong to ignore.

So, since increasing the winning percentage at Euchre is the goal of the BPS, I will replace the 0.25 increase in value of the right with a +0.25 value for having 2 trumps. That makes a lot of sense since a 2nd trump not only increases the value of the Right, but also AKQT & 9. It even increases the value of voids. Adding 0.25 for the 2nd trump also reflects that BPS is not focused on individual cards but focused on the dynamics of play, card combinations, card distribution, playing of the hands and end game play.

Why did I make this strategic blunder? I made the same error as Eric Zalas. I chose simplification over reasonable accuracy. I had considered this change earlier but decided not to make the change. Thanks to RedDuke and his post I see my error.

I have 4 posts to edit to reflect these updates. There are 2 related changes that I will make. I will place all of the “number of trump” based values in the same grouping. I will also be adding a -.75 value to ordering with no trump. Dlan covered times when ordering with no trump makes sense in the OE lessons. This change will quantitatively indicate when a no trump order makes sense.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:55 pm

Thank you OE Forum readers for visiting this post 6,200 times! That is triple the 2nd most visited post! Unfortunately there have only been 36 posts, that are not mine. That is 170 visits per post. The forum average is about 14 visits per post! Why?

Please tell us what you think. Have you tried BPS? How has it worked for you? Is it too complicated? Is it too simplified? What additions, or subtractions would you recommend? Even negative comments are welcome. My response may not convince you, but may convince someone else of the efficacy of BPS.

Please tell me your reaction, experience and especially your thoughtful responses. I am simply sharing my growth in enjoying Euchre because of OE (Ohio Euchre) lessons and forum. Your ideas will be welcomed. My goal as well as Don Lund, the creator of OE, is to help more people enjoy the wonderful game of Euchre.

WolfHills
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: Abingdon VA

Post by WolfHills » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:50 am

Richard,

I really like it, it makes me think. I also take screen shots of my hand to compare to your original BPS. I need to make a new sheet with your updated one and then really start analyzing it. For me it’s hard to use real time, but a great resource to go back and look at my hands. Sometime I got confused on when you added points or not but overall good. I am going to make it a point to update my sheet and start reviewing again as I have hit a plateau in my play and need to keep looking at how to improve. It is a great tool, and I for one really appreciate it. When you make changes to the BPS do you change the original post to just updates in a later thread. Thanks Shane AKA WolfHills

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:30 am

WolfHills wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:50 am
Richard,

I really like it, it makes me think. I also take screen shots of my hand to compare to your original BPS. I need to make a new sheet with your updated one and then really start analyzing it. For me it’s hard to use real time, but a great resource to go back and look at my hands. Sometime I got confused on when you added points or not but overall good. I am going to make it a point to update my sheet and start reviewing again as I have hit a plateau in my play and need to keep looking at how to improve. It is a great tool, and I for one really appreciate it. When you make changes to the BPS do you change the original post to just updates in a later thread. Thanks Shane AKA WolfHills
Thanks Shane,
You reminded me that I must edit my OP in this thread, Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic.

I suggest that this post in the Beginners and Casual section will help you more:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=287

You will find every update plus the BPS is streamlined, which simplifies the system.

MY OP outlines my learning curve with the BPS and though interesting could be TMI.


Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:20 pm

Thank you for visiting. Please feel free to post your comments, pro or con. Please join our ohioeuchre table Monday Nights 9PM ET at worldofcardgames.com. There is a post filled with all the details to participate during this time of social distancing! I enjoy the WoCG (World of Card Games) ranked games. Look for me, Richardb02.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sat May 02, 2020 2:41 pm

Seat 1 Order or Pass
Image
Up (Card_A-C) Seat 1 Round 1 Score 5-0 Equal & Ave Players
S1 (Card_A-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-S)
[Photo was fuzzy. So I used the OE display. If you know how to make the photo uploads work better on iPads please educate me]
Would you order or pass?
Use BPS, now would you call or pass?
Clue, use BPS to evaluate your R2 hand. Now would you call or pass?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri May 08, 2020 7:42 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 2:41 pm
Seat 1 Order or Pass
Image
Up (Card_A-C) Seat 1 Round 1 Score 5-0 Equal & Ave Players
S1 (Card_A-D) (Card_J-C) (Card_Q-C) (Card_K-C) (Card_A-S)
[Photo was fuzzy. So I used the OE display. If you know how to make the photo uploads work better on iPads please educate me]
Would you order or pass?
Use BPS, now would you call or pass?
Clue, use BPS to evaluate your R2 hand. Now would you call or pass?
I think it's very close between going alone in the first round or passing with the intention of going alone in Next. I don't think it's obvious which strategy is best. With a passive dealer, going alone in clubs is probably best but against an aggressive dealer, trying to trap in clubs with the intention of going alone in spades may be the best line. These are the kind of fun hands I'd loved to simulate.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sat May 09, 2020 1:59 pm

I agree Wes, it is a close decision, but I don’t think that Casual and Average players would be thinking Loner or let’s pass to get 2 points. They need the BPS to see why this hand has more possibilities, that can be reasonably ranked to point out the best decision. They would benefit by evaluating the 15 factors quickly ranked by BPS. There is even a more simplified BPS an the Beginners and Casual section.

Experienced players will see that BPS is easily expanded to cover additional factors and to more precisely rank factors, if they are analyzing at that high of a level. It is not an inflexible system that you play like a bot (robot). It is a method of analyzing the hand from a simplified approach to as elaborate as you wish to achieve. I find it useful to even estimate my probability of earning 1,2 or 4 points, and even the probability to euchre Opponent. Euchring Opponent is not a walk off grand slam but it surely equivalent to an inning ending double play with runners on 1st and third!

Let’s analyze this hand and see if I can persuade the readers, at least a bit:
0.25 R1 S1
1.00 Jc
0.50 Qc
0.50 Kc
0.50 3 trump
0.75 A Singleton Green
0.50 Singleton Next
0.25 1 Void
4.25 Subtotal
-.25 Value of Ac upcard (0.50) minus min 0.25 for 9c upcard
4.00 Min 2.00 order and at 3.75 points, an expectation of 95% success
____ At 3.75 points consider a Loner, at 4.00 a definite Loner, but...
____ S1 is special, can we trap the Dealer into ordering when we have a 95% probability of euchring them? Usually not. If your hand is strong, the other hands are weak. But if we have a R2 order, passing and going for 2 points would make sense. So lets evaluate:
0.50 R2 S1
0.75 R2 S1 Next
0.75 Jc
0.50 As
0.25 Bower + 1, a relatively recent improvement to BPS
0.50 Kc, note the expansion of BPS, Ac has been turned over. Kc is now Boss
0.75 Ad, Singleton Green
0.25 Void
4.25 Points, so stronger than R1 hand before adjustment. (For Advanced players, I would consider adjusting 0.25 (my range is .25 to .75 pt adjustments for additional factors), like the added benefit of passing in R1. So R1 I adjust to 3.75 vs. 4.25 for R2. So I would pass R1 and call Alone in R2.

For people still following my analysis, Ohio Euchre Uber-players I would continue analyzing. I would like to analyze my probabilities of getting 4 points, both in R1 and R2.

I have simplified my approach to counting single cards that can stop my Loner (1 pt ea), combinations of trumps (0.3 ea) and trumped voids (0.2 ea). It is actually based on geometric progression with fractional powers! Too friggin’ complicated. Simplifying gives me:
1.00 total stoppers, I have a 50% chance of 4 points
2.00 total stoppers, I have a 25% chance of 4 points
3.00 total stoppers, I have a 12.5% chance of 4 points, my edge
4.00 total stoppers, I have a 6.25%, use only in desperate situations
____ The geometric progression is fairly obvious
____ When you don’t have whole numbers, simply interpolate
1.30 total stoppers, I have a 42.5% chance of 4 points
1.50 total stoppers, I have a 37.5% chance of 4 points
2.50 total stoppers, I have a 18.75% chance of 4 points
3.30 total stoppers, I have a 10.625% chance of 4, My tight edge
____ If you are motivated, it is not hard to apply

In R1 L,T & 9 of trump can be used to parlay and stop me, so 3x0.3= 0.90
My 2 off-suit aces can be trumped, so 2 x 0.2 = 0.40
Total value of stoppers 1.30 so probability of 4 points interpolates to 32.5% chance

R2 Right = 1.00, KQT9 trump parlays = 4x.2=0.8, 2 off-suit Aces (remember the Kc is the Boss club and is equivalent to an Ace) so 2x.2= 0.40
Total value of stoppers is 2.20, interpolating to 22.50 probability of 4 points

So, just looking at earning 4 points a R1 Loner is slightly better. But passing in R1 earns a higher EV (Estimated Value) of the hand because of the possibility of euchring the dealer.

The BPS analysis validates Wes’ analysis, this is too close to call. As usual, The Legend is right.

Personally, I enjoyed success with BPS-Basic, that has exceeded my expectations as I leaned how to play the past 2 1/2 years. BPS is based on the Ohio Euchre Lessons.
It reminds me of taking geometry one year and analytical geometry later. All the same concepts, just using numbers to keep score. Which creates a sports metaphor! In sports, we track success by keeping score. We analyze the game with statistics and analytics. Winning teams are using statistics and analytics. I prefer to win.

On the flip side, I am not going for the Player of the Year Award of Euchre. I play at slightly above BPS-Basic. You have your own level. But if you are playing 50 games a month, you are devoting about 600 minutes or 10 hours per month to Euchre. I suggest that you use 30-40% or 3-4 hours a month for Ohio Euchre lessons, learning the BPS and scanning the forum. You will improve your game and enjoyment immensely.

I play many people on WoCG (World of Card Games) who have played over 10,000 hands but have Elo’s (player rankings) below 1500, which is well below a 50% winning percentage. I have a 1600 Elo and 55% winning percentage. Winning is more fun! They should invest a percentage of their time to Ohio Euchre instead of playing and losing.

What do you think?


Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:51 pm

A bot actually ordered this hand!
R2S1 (Card_A-C) down Score 4-3 Equal players
(Card_J-C) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-H)
The Bot went Alone!
Would you?
Would I go Alone”
Let’s see how my BPS would guide us:
0.50 R2S1
0.75 Next, R2S1
0.75 Left, Jc
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.25 9s
0.75 2 Voids, 2 suited
4.00 Greater than 3.75, consider Alone
____ Let’s consider Stoppers
0.50 If Opponents had Js, they probably ordered! Perhaps S2 had Js
0.50 As, Ks +1 protected trump
1.00 =50% (50%^1=.5)
30% Chance that Opponents keep a winning heart (1/3rd chance, 33%, rounded down to 30%)
15% probability of taking 4 points, 50% x 30% = 15%
EV, Alone (.95-.15)x1+.15x4- .05x2= 0.80+0.60 -.1= 1.30
EV, Partnered (.95-.3)x1+.3x2-.05x2= .65+.6-.1= 1.15
Nice, .15, 13% greater EV, results going with an Alone!
Looks weak, but makes sense, to me, IMO!
Would you go Alone?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:34 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:51 pm
A bot actually ordered this hand!
R2S1 (Card_A-C) down Score 4-3 Equal players
(Card_J-C) (Card_K-S) (Card_Q-S) (Card_9-S) (Card_10-H)
The Bot went Alone!
Would you?
Would I go Alone”
Let’s see how my BPS would guide us:
0.50 R2S1
0.75 Next, R2S1
0.75 Left, Jc
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.25 9s
0.75 2 Voids, 2 suited
4.00 Greater than 3.75, consider Alone
____ Let’s consider Stoppers
0.50 If Opponents had Js, they probably ordered! Perhaps S2 had Js
0.50 As, Ks +1 protected trump
1.00 =50% (50%^1=.5)
30% Chance that Opponents keep a winning heart (1/3rd chance, 33%, rounded down to 30%)
15% probability of taking 4 points, 50% x 30% = 15%
EV, Alone (.95-.15)x1+.15x4- .05x2= 0.80+0.60 -.1= 1.30
EV, Partnered (.95-.3)x1+.3x2-.05x2= .65+.6-.1= 1.15
Nice, .15, 13% greater EV, results going with an Alone!
Looks weak, but makes sense, to me, IMO!
Would you go Alone?
Yep go alone. Having the lead makes the TH more likely to win in the end, and I'm not worried about my unguarded Left hand when I'm calling Next.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:51 pm

BPS.Basic.Minimized [Updated and recalibrated]
Value of Seat & Round
0.25 S1 R1
0.50 S2 R1
0.00 S3 R1
0.50 D4 R1 [Note: the Up Card Value will be added later]

0.50 S1 R2
1.00 S2 R2
0.25 S3 R2
1.00 D4 R2

Value of Cards
1.00 Right [1.00=1 trick]
0.75 Left
0.50 AKQ Trump
0.25 T9 Trump (Low Trump)
0.75 Green Singleton Aces
-.25 for every other card in Green Ace suit
0.50 is the value of a Singleton Black Ace
-.25 for every other card in Black Ace suit
0.25 for 1 Void Suit and you have at least 1 trump
0.75 total for 2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand, but Kx min.

[Don't overthink the system. Keep it simple. The system estimates potential tricks. A Right is worth 1.0 trick It has a 100% chance of taking a trick. No other card has a 100% chance of taking a trick. Therefore, 1.25 points is required for a 95% confidence to take a trick. Every other value is relative to a Right being worth 1.0. The Left has a 60% chance of taking a trick, value 0.75. An A, K or Q of trump has a 40% chance of taking a trick, value 0.50, etc. They are approximations, not precise values. Ordering/bidding when you count 2.5 points in your hand is based on 1. Count on your partner for 1 trick. 2. You then need 2 tricks. 3.You need 2.5 points, nominally, to have a 95% probability of taking 2 tricks. That assumes that you play the cards with approximately the same skill level as Opponents. 4. Nominally, means that you can still adjust the 2.5 points for a minimum order based on your experiences].

My Ordering/bidding minimums
2.25 Pts S1
2.00 Pts S2
2.75 Pts S3 [If S1 proves he leads trump to S3 order, reduce to 2.50]
2.00 Pts D4

Card Combinations
0.75 S1 R2, Next Call
0.50 S2 R 2,Reverse Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 3, Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 4, Reverse Next Call

[Strong trump combinations are very powerful and deserve additional points].
0.25 for Rx Lx
0.50 for any 3 trump
0.75 for 3 trump, 2 out of 3 RLA
0.75 for any 4 trump
1.00 for 3 trump & 2 out of 3 RLA
1.00 for 4 trump and a Bower or 2
[Weak combinations deserve a deduction
-.50 for 1 Trump
-.75 for 0 Trump

[Trump & Aces deserve additional points].
0.50 2 Trump & Singleton Ace
0.75 2 Trump with 2 or more Off Suit Aces
[I must confess, I still overlook these factors]!

-0.00 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is 9T
-0.25 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is QKA
-1.00 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is Right
[Seat 1 and 3 have to overcome the value of ordering the Up card into the Dealer's hand. If the Up card is 9 or 10 the net value is 0.0 (the adjustment for Seat 1 & 3 already accounts for the minimal value of calling a 9T trump card into the dealers hand). QKA hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call -.25. A Right hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call -1.0].
Conversely, I will add points from S2 for the Up Card
0.25 for S2 R1, if Up Card is QK or A
0.75 For S2 R1, if Up card is Right (J) BUT:
0.00 if Up Card is R and I want to give D4 a chance for a Loner.

[At this point you can bid your cards relatively confidently. You now need to test your results and ultimately decide whether the BPS is profitable or not.]

[Even basic players, once your understand Partner you can adjust]:
-0.25 for a weak player
+0.25 for a very conservative player (you are bidding for them)
-0.25 if you are the weak player, Opponents are superior

[Even basic players, can confidently order Loners]:
3.75 Points indicates a probable Alone bid. 3.75 points indicates that you almost have a lock on taking 3 tricks. It there are 2 or less, single card stoppers, bid Alone.

By counting Parlays, call next against 2.75 stoppers! A 2-Card Parlay is equivalent to 0.25 Single-Card Stoppers. For example, you have RAx (in trump), an opponent must have Lx, to take a trick. That is a Parlay. You have a Reverse Next AT, opponents have 3 parlays, Kx, Qx and Jx. Even from R1S3, you have a Loner Order, 3.75 BPS and only 1 Stopper-Equivalent. Create a hand and test it with BPS.

4.00 Points screams bid Alone. [If you are getting euchred at 4 points, you need to stop focusing on bidding and work on playing the hand.]

Basic players can even take the score into account:
[This breaks down to 1. your Opponents having 8 or 9 points. In a 10 point game, if they get 1 or 2 more points, they will win. 2. If your opponents have 6 or 7 points, you should consider that they can win with an Alone. 3. If you are behind by 3 or more points, you need to get back into the game. 4. If you are within 1 or 2 points of winning, loosen up a bit].

+0.25 if Opponents have 9 points, loosen up, it is time to be more aggressive
-0.25 if Opponents have 8 points, if you are euchred you lose the game
+0.50 if Opponents have 6 or 7 points and it is the second round
+0.25 if the score is at a disadvantage
+0.75 if Donating (Calling/ Biding to protect a lead) is appropriate
+0.25 if you have 9 points (loosen your bid to try and end the game)
+0.50 if you have 9 points and your opponent has 6 or 7 points

Basic players can also make adjustments from S1 R1:
X.XX Calculate the value of your R2 hand, especially in Next. If your R2 hand is equal to or stronger Than in R1, then pass, go for 2 points! If Opps pass, call Next in R2. Reverse Next passing is more complicated and is discussed in BPS Advanced.

That is the end of BPS.Basics. I have shared my 1.5 years of experience utilizing BPS.Basic. IMO, BPS.Basic reflects the OE lessons and wisdom gained from the OE posts with my “added value” of assigning a numerical value to readily available observations. I still apply my “gut instincts” on edge hands (minimum orders) but rely on the BPS when it concludes that I have a 0.25 advantage. My result has been improved results, confidence and enjoyment playing Euchre.

Advanced concepts (80% of the posts on OE) involve less easily observable card combinations and more nuanced values. Key concepts are euchre hands, stopping hands, Partners, Opponents, the score and Donating. Ask these questions on the General Euchre Discussion forum. For BPS-Basic, you will be better served on the Beginners and Casual Forum.

Being smart is learning from your mistakes. Being wise is learning from other person’s mistakes! In 2020, I have improved my Euchre by applying BPS-Basic and BPS-Advanced, at our Monday Night games on WoCG, 850 PM ET. Please join us. Monday Nights are OE’s effort to develop many more, wise Euchre players. Any person, participating on OE, is welcome to join us.

Richardb02
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm
Location: Florida

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:53 pm

Significant change 09/05/2020
BPS.Basic.Minimized [Updated and recalibrated]
Value of Seat & Round
0.50 S1 R1
1.00 S2 R1
-.25 S3 R1
1.00 D4 R1 [Note: the Up Card Value will be added later]

0.75 S1 R2
1.50 S2 R2
0.00 S3 R2
1.50 S4 R2

Value of Cards
1.00 Right [1.00=1 trick]
0.75 Left
0.50 AKQ Trump
0.25 T9 Trump (Low Trump)
0.75 Green Singleton Aces
-.25 for every other card in Green Ace suit
0.50 is the value of a Singleton Black Ace
-.25 for every other card in Black Ace suit
0.25 for 1 Void Suit and you have at least 1 trump
0.75 total for 2 Void Suits, 2 Suited Hand, but Kx min.

[Don't overthink the system. Keep it simple. The system estimates potential tricks. A Right is worth 1.0 trick It has a 100% chance of taking a trick. No other card has a 100% chance of taking a trick. Therefore, 1.25 points is required for a 95% confidence to take a trick. Every other value is relative to a Right being worth 1.0. The Left has a 60% chance of taking a trick, value 0.75. An A, K or Q of trump has a 40% chance of taking a trick, value 0.50, etc. They are approximations, not precise values. Ordering/bidding when you count 2.5 points in your hand is based on 1. Count on your partner for 1 trick. 2. You then need 2 tricks. 3.You need 2.5 points, nominally, to have a 95% probability of taking 2 tricks. That assumes that you play the cards with approximately the same skill level as Opponents. 4. Nominally, means that you can still adjust the 2.5 points for a minimum order based on your experiences].

My Ordering/bidding minimums
2.50 Pts S1
2.50 Pts S2
2.50 Pts S3 [If S1 proves he leads trump to S3 order, reduce to 2.25]
2.50 Pts D4

R2 Additions
0.75 S1 R2, Next Call
0.50 S2 R 2,Reverse Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 3, Next Call
0.25 Round 2, Seat 4, Reverse Next Call

[Strong trump combinations are very powerful and deserve additional points].
0.25 for Rx Lx
0.50 for any 3 trump
0.75 for 3 trump, 2 out of 3 RLA
0.75 for any 4 trump
1.00 for 3 trump & 2 out of 3 RLA
1.00 for 4 trump and a Bower or 2
[Weak combinations that deserve a deduction
-.50 for 1 Trump
-.75 for 0 Trump

[Trump & Aces deserve additional points].
0.50 2 Trump & Singleton Ace
0.75 2 Trump with 2 or more Off Suit Aces
[I must confess, I still overlook these factors]!

-0.00 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is 9T
-0.25 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is QKA
-1.00 S1 or S3 R1 if the Up card is Right
[Seat 1 and 3 have to overcome the value of ordering the Up card into the Dealer's hand. If the Up card is 9 or 10 the net value is 0.0 (the adjustment for Seat 1 & 3 already accounts for the minimal value of calling a 9T trump card into the dealers hand). QKA hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call -.25. A Right hinders a Seat 1 or 3 call -1.0].
Conversely, I will add points from S2 for the Up Card
0.25 for S2 R1, if Up Card is QK or A
0.75 For S2 R1, if Up card is Right (J) BUT:
0.00 if Up Card is R and I want to give D4 a chance for a Loner.

[At this point you can bid your cards relatively confidently. You now need to test your results and ultimately decide whether the BPS is profitable or not.]

[Even basic players, once your understand Partner you can adjust]:
-0.25 for a weak player
+0.25 for a very conservative player (you are bidding for them)
-0.25 if you are the weak player, Opponents are superior

[Even basic players, can confidently order Loners]:
3.75 Points indicates a probable Alone bid. 3.75 points indicates that you almost have a lock on taking 3 tricks. It there are 2 or less, single card stoppers, bid Alone.

By counting Parlays, call next against 2.75 stoppers! A 2-Card Parlay is equivalent to 0.25 Single-Card Stoppers. For example, you have RAx (in trump), an opponent must have Lx, to take a trick. That is a Parlay. You have a Reverse Next AT, opponents have 3 parlays, Kx, Qx and Jx. Even from R1S3, you have a Loner Order, 3.75 BPS and only 1 Stopper-Equivalent. Create a hand and test it with BPS.

4.00 Points screams bid Alone. [If you are getting euchred at 4 points, you need to stop focusing on bidding and work on playing the hand.]

Basic players can even take the score into account:
[This breaks down to 1. your Opponents having 8 or 9 points. In a 10 point game, if they get 1 or 2 more points, they will win. 2. If your opponents have 6 or 7 points, you should consider that they can win with an Alone. 3. If you are behind by 3 or more points, you need to get back into the game. 4. If you are within 1 or 2 points of winning, loosen up a bit].

+0.25 if Opponents have 9 points, loosen up, it is time to be more aggressive
-0.25 if Opponents have 8 points, if you are euchred you lose the game
+0.50 if Opponents have 6 or 7 points and it is the second round
+0.25 if the score is at a disadvantage
+0.75 if Donating (Calling/ Biding to protect a lead) is appropriate
+0.25 if you have 9 points (loosen your bid to try and end the game)
+0.50 if you have 9 points and your opponent has 6 or 7 points

Basic players can also make adjustments from S1 R1:
X.XX Calculate the value of your R2 hand, especially in Next. If your R2 hand is equal to or stronger Than in R1, then pass, go for 2 points! If Opps pass, call Next in R2. Reverse Next passing is more complicated and is discussed in BPS Advanced.

That is the end of BPS.Basics. I have shared my 1.5 years of experience utilizing BPS.Basic. IMO, BPS.Basic reflects the OE lessons and wisdom gained from the OE posts with my “added value” of assigning a numerical value to readily available observations. I still apply my “gut instincts” on edge hands (minimum orders) but rely on the BPS when it concludes that I have a 0.25 advantage. My result has been improved results, confidence and enjoyment playing Euchre.

Advanced concepts (80% of the posts on OE) involve less easily observable card combinations and more nuanced values. Key concepts are euchre hands, stopping hands, Partners, Opponents, the score and Donating. Ask these questions on the General Euchre Discussion forum. For BPS-Basic, you will be better served on the Beginners and Casual Forum.

Being smart is learning from your mistakes. Being wise is learning from other person’s mistakes! In 2020, I have improved my Euchre by applying BPS-Basic and BPS-Advanced, at our Monday Night games on WoCG, 850 PM ET. Please join us. Monday Nights are OE’s effort to develop many more, wise Euchre players. Any person, participating on OE, is welcome to join us.

Please post comments to my new thread, Bidding Point System BPS - Basic 090520

Post Reply