Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

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Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: Bidding Point System (BPS) - Basic

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm

(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?



Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm

(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?

RedDuke
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:03 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
Left-Ace plus an ace in every other suit? I'm calling.
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
From seat 2, I'm passing that. Let your partner decide what to do. You have an okay helper hand, but not strong enough to call it and step on a loner from your partner.

Whoops, thought this was a first round call. Honestly, I'm still passing that in the second round. The hand doesn't have any one suit that stands out as being particularly strong so I'd rather lean on my partner to call whatever his strongest suit is.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
I go alone. BTW keep all three aces if you do go alone (I.E. discard the Kh). The idea of discarding an ace to better survive that first lead is only valid for loners that can't go set or have a very low probability of going set. With more marginal loners, the more aces you have the better becuz if you lose control of the hand--which will happen--that extra ace can save you.

I can't prove that going alone with Left + 1 + 3 off aces is correct, but that's honestly irrelevant to me becuz I simply don't have the ability to just call with that hand. Gamble gamble.
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
When I made my quiz I purposely tried (for the most part) to stay away from super marginal hands like this. I certainly wanted my quiz to be tricky but also relatively non-controversial.

But that said, with hands like the above, I'm just gonna tell you what i would do. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to speak with confidence on what is correct. And what I would do is call Diamonds. At a neutral score, with a hand that blocks nothing, I'm not passing a reverse next call with 1 trump and two off aces.

Edit: Exception to the above: If seat 1 is a pro, then I'm passing. The logic being that a pro is not passing in the 2nd round if they don't block reverse next. If that's the case than trying to hit your partner with 1 trump reverse next calls is not gonna end well for you. But keep in my mind, this "pro" we're talking about is mostly mythical. Out of the approximately 10K people that daily play on my app, maybe 5-10 are pros. That's around .1% of the euchre population.

Plz be polite and ignore the circular reasoning behind my assertion!
Last edited by Wes (aka the legend) on Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:49 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:37 pm
Let's find a couple Seat 4, Round 1 "Edge" calls.

Up (Card_K-S) Seat 4 Score Neutral Players equal and average
(Card_Q-S) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_K-H) (Card_Q-H)
The BPS Evaluation after discarding Qd:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ks
0.50 Qs
0.50 Ac
2.00 Total points, which is my "definitely call" edge. So I would call.

1.75 Total points, is my "consider" edge. My main consideration is, do I have Kx trump or higher? If yes I would call.
Would you call or pass on this hand?
Definitely the edgiest of edge hands. I call too. At neutral scores, I don't pass two trump + a singleton next ace from the dealer spot when I block nothing. Am I super confident in this call. No.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:37 pm
Lets look at 1 trump and 2 Aces:
Up (Card_K-S) Seat 4 Score Neutral Players equal and average
(Card_A-D) (Card_Q-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H) (Card_10-C)
The BPS Evaluation after discarding Tc:
0.50 Seat 4
0.50 Ks
0.50 Ad
0.75 Ah (Singleton Green Ace)
-.50 Only 1 trump
1.75 Which means is "consider" call. Singleton K trump is weaker than K9. So I would pass.
Would you call or pass on this hand?
I pass. Off the top of my head the only 1 trump combos I'm making as the dealer include the Right bower.

That said I think it's fine to try a hail mary loner down 9-6 with a hand like this (spades being trump):

(Card_A-S) (Card_A-D) (Card_K-D) (Card_A-H) (Card_A-C)

RedDuke
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:22 am

Post by RedDuke » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
I go alone. BTW keep all three aces if you do go alone (I.E. discard the Kh). The idea of discarding an ace to better survive that first lead is only valid for loners that can't go set or have a very low probability of going set. With more marginal loners, the more aces you have the better becuz if you lose control of the hand--which will happen--that extra ace can save you.

I can't prove that going alone with Left + 1 + 3 off aces is correct, but that's honestly irrelevant to me becuz I simply don't have the ability to just call with that hand. Gamble gamble.
I actually had the same thought about trying that as a loner and discarding the King of Hearts. Not sure I'd try it at a neutral score but if my side was down 7-2 or something like that, I'd give it a shot.
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
When I made my quiz I purposely tried (for the most part) to stay away from super marginal hands like this. I certainly wanted my quiz to be tricky but also relatively non-controversial.

But that said, with hands like the above, I'm just gonna tell you what i would do. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to speak with confidence on what is correct. And what I would do is call Diamonds. At a neutral score, with a hand that blocks nothing, I'm not passing a reverse next call with 1 trump and two off aces.

Edit: Exception to the above: If seat 1 is a pro, then I'm passing. The logic being that a pro is not passing in the 2nd round if they don't block reverse next. If that's the case than trying to hit your partner with 1 trump reverse next calls is not gonna end well for you. But keep in my mind, this "pro" we're talking about is mostly mythical. Out of the approximately 10K people that daily play on my app, maybe 5-10 are pros. That's around .1% of the euchre population.

Plz be polite and ignore the circular reasoning behind my assertion!
Why not call hearts there instead? You're hoping that your partner has at least one bower with the reverse next call and statistically that's a good bet. You're stronger in Hearts than Diamonds.

Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:20 pm

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 pm
(Card_Q-S) Up; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 4
(Card_A-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_J-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_K-H)
Call or pass?
I go alone. BTW keep all three aces if you do go alone (I.E. discard the Kh). The idea of discarding an ace to better survive that first lead is only valid for loners that can't go set or have a very low probability of going set. With more marginal loners, the more aces you have the better becuz if you lose control of the hand--which will happen--that extra ace can save you.

I can't prove that going alone with Left + 1 + 3 off aces is correct, but that's honestly irrelevant to me becuz I simply don't have the ability to just call with that hand. Gamble gamble.
I actually had the same thought about trying that as a loner and discarding the King of Hearts. Not sure I'd try it at a neutral score but if my side was down 7-2 or something like that, I'd give it a shot.

Let's see what happens with the BPS:
0.50 Seat 3
0.50 Qs
0.75 Right
0.75 Ad
0.50 Ac
0.50 Ah
0.50 2 Trump & 2 or more Aces
4.00 with 3.50 edge,3.75 definite, 4.00 almost no doubt but:

In general, you call Alones when the card distribution is unbalanced. The BPS's very foundation assumes a reasonable average card distribution. So the BPS is not a strong call a loner indicator. Therefore, when considering calling a loner, I look at a wide range from 3.50 to 4.25 points. I then look for other factors. The first is always to picture how the cards will play out. I see a path to 5 tricks. I see only minimal chances of being euchred. But, the biggest factor, for this hand, is that my hand is balanced to the max! That increases the odds that the other hands are balanced. That increases the odds that my Aces will take enough tricks for 3 to 5 points. I agree with your Loner call Wes.

Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:22 pm

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:39 pm
Richardb02 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:26 pm
(Card_K-C) Down, Round 2; Neutral Score; Average & Even players; Seat 2
(Card_K-D) (Card_A-C) (Card_A-H) (Card_9-S) (Card_K-S)
Call & Suit or pass?
When I made my quiz I purposely tried (for the most part) to stay away from super marginal hands like this. I certainly wanted my quiz to be tricky but also relatively non-controversial.

But that said, with hands like the above, I'm just gonna tell you what i would do. I'm certainly not gonna pretend to speak with confidence on what is correct. And what I would do is call Diamonds. At a neutral score, with a hand that blocks nothing, I'm not passing a reverse next call with 1 trump and two off aces.

Edit: Exception to the above: If seat 1 is a pro, then I'm passing. The logic being that a pro is not passing in the 2nd round if they don't block reverse next. If that's the case than trying to hit your partner with 1 trump reverse next calls is not gonna end well for you. But keep in my mind, this "pro" we're talking about is mostly mythical. Out of the approximately 10K people that daily play on my app, maybe 5-10 are pros. That's around .1% of the euchre population.

Plz be polite and ignore the circular reasoning behind my assertion!
Let's see if BPS agrees:
0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.75 Reverse Next Diamonds
0.50 Kd
0.50 Kc
0.75 Ah
-.50 1 Trump
2.75 and 2.00 is enough for a call from Seat 2

0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.00 Next Spades
0.25 9s
0.50 Ks
0.50 Ac
0.75 Ah
2.75 is identical. Tie

What it boils down to is the power of Hoyle vs. the value of a 2nd trump.
I've assigned a value of Reverse Next from Seat 2 as 0.75 (a potential 0.75 trick)
I've assessed a penalty of -0.50 when calling with a single trump.
That works out to a net of 0.25 for Reverse Next

But there is value to the 2nd trump of 0.25 points, when calling next.
Hence, a tie.

I suggest:
The value of Hoyle (Reverse Next from Seat 2) is 3 tads (0.75)
The negative value of a single trump is negative 2 tads (-.50)
The value of a 9 or T of trump is 1 tad (0.25)
This hand reflects a balance point of good Hoyle vs. 1 Trump
(assuming 2 trump is neutral and 3 trump is strong)
Also. 2.75 points is a "well above edge" call from Seat 2. In fact it is 3 tads above the edge. BTW, an edge call means that I will be satisfied if I am euchred less than 33% of the time! The 2.75 points means, in my "guestimate", that I have a 95% chance of taking 2 tricks (and a possibility of taking 2.75 tricks). So I must count on my partner for his trick (or portion of a trick). I suggest that you can count on your partner for 1 trick 80% of the time. Mix that together and I expect to get my point 85% of the time with 2.75 points and euchred the other 15% of the time.

Every player is assigning "value" to an observation about their hand and situation. The BPS goes one small step further and assigns a numerical value to the observation. I feel that the BPS tracks the wisdom of Ohio Euchre systematically and with universally understood numbers. What do you think?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:11 am

RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
I actually had the same thought about trying that as a loner and discarding the King of Hearts. Not sure I'd try it at a neutral score but if my side was down 7-2 or something like that, I'd give it a shot.
I would go alone with it at every score except when my team is at 8/9 points. Another reason to consider adding this loner to your arsenal at a neutral score is those times you get set with it you probably would've went set even if you had called. I mean think about it, you already have all the aces. To get euchred with this hand means your opponents had to be super heavy in trump. In that case it's hard to imagine your partner having that key card that would've saved you had you just called. I mean it's possible but that's a very rare parlay. Now one might think, "yeah but if we just call and bring our partner along surely we will get 2 points more often. There is some value in that!" But is there really? In theory at least if your partner had Right + 1 he should've called himself so we shouldn't count on this holding being there that often, and if your partner has just the Right and you somehow knew that, that would only make you wanna go alone even more anyways! So yeah, I'm not trying to say bringing your partner along won't increase your chances of getting 2 points, just saying it ain't by much.
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
Why not call hearts there instead? You're hoping that your partner has at least one bower with the reverse next call and statistically that's a good bet. You're stronger in Hearts than Diamonds.
I don't see a big difference between having the Ah vs having the Kd, but there is a big difference between having 1 off ace vs having 2, so that's why I'm going with diamonds. Also, those times our partner has just the Right, we are way more likely to get lucky and eke out a point with 2 off aces. In fact change the Kd to the 9d and I'm still calling diamonds with 2 off aces vs going with the Ah and one off ace.

Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:29 am

Wes (aka the legend) wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:11 am
RedDuke wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm
Why not call hearts there instead? You're hoping that your partner has at least one bower with the reverse next call and statistically that's a good bet. You're stronger in Hearts than Diamonds.
I don't see a big difference between having the Ah vs having the Kd, but there is a big difference between having 1 off ace vs having 2, so that's why I'm going with diamonds. Also, those times our partner has just the Right, we are way more likely to get lucky and eke out a point with 2 off aces. In fact change the Kd to the 9d and I'm still calling diamonds with 2 off aces vs going with the Ah and one off ace.
Call Hearts:
0.50 Seat 2
0.25 Round 2
0.75 Reverse Next Hearts
0.50 Ah
0.75 Ac
-.50 1 Trump
2.25 Weaker than the 2.75 for a call in Spades or Diamonds.

The point total of 2.25 precisely reflects, in single number, Wes' analysis of calling hearts vs calling diamonds. The BPS just quantifies (assigns a numeric value) to easily observed situations in the hand (Seat, Round, Individual cards, card combinations, voids, end game scores and calling Alones). BPS Advanced will address less easily observed situations (blocking, Round 2, early game scores, blocking, Euchre hands and more)

General question? When counting cards, what exactly do you count? I track 4 numbers: trump, maker's trump, maker's Aces{Bosses}, maker's losers). So if Opponent called, a typical count is 7,3,1,1. All 7 trump were played. Maker had 3 trump, 1 Ace and 1 loser. I keep track of the Boss in the 3 off suits.

Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:27 pm

Going Against Hoyle,
Based on Ohio Euchre Tips:
https://ohioeuchre.com/E_fishing-for-Euchre-trump.php
Round 2 Seat 1 (Card_9-C) Down
Your Hand:
(Card_A-C) (Card_10-D) (Card_9-H) (Card_10-H) (Card_Q-H)
Ohio Euchre (Don Bunn) suggests "Going Against Hoyle" with this hand
BPS Calculations:
0.25 Seat 1
0.25 Round 2
0.00 Going Against Hoyle (Reverse Next)
0.25 9h
0.25 Th
0.50 Qh
0.75 Ac (Singleton Green Ace, but Next Ace)
0.50 3 Trumps, no Bowers
2.75 Total Points, 2.25 minimum to call, so Call, per BPS

The "Tips" lesson goes on to show earning the point. The lesson is actually titled, "Fishing for Trump".

Would you call or pass?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:38 am

When I block no suits I call so loosely from seat 1, 2nd rd that going against hoyle with the 3 lowest trump + an off ace seems like a monster.

Richardb02
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Post by Richardb02 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am

Does, "seems like a monster" mean that it is a strong and powerful hand, relative to the situation?

Lets get a little deeper into blocking. You would have to block 3 suits in Round 2 to block, (definitely stop a Loner from getting 4 points), everything. With the hand as shown you block no suits. Agreed?

Do you vary your loosening depending on the number of suits that you block? o you vary based on blocking Next or Reverse Next suits?

Wes (aka the legend)
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Wes (aka the legend) » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:00 pm

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
Does, "seems like a monster" mean that it is a strong and powerful hand, relative to the situation?
Yes, relative to my calling range in that spot (when I block nothing) I am super happy with that hand.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
Lets get a little deeper into blocking. You would have to block 3 suits in Round 2 to block, (definitely stop a Loner from getting 4 points), everything. With the hand as shown you block no suits. Agreed?
Yes, we block nothing.
Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
Do you vary your loosening depending on the number of suits that you block?


Yes. When you block nothing you MUST call super loose from 1 seat, 2nd rd at most scores. This is a concept that very few people understand or apply well, but in my opinion it is the most important concept in the game, and this is why seat 1 is the most important seat in the game becuz Seat 1, 2nd rd is where this concept comes up the most.

A quick aside: Remember you can't really loosen up your game much in the 1st round. In the first round the upcard dictates the action whether we like it or not. We can only make minor tweaks to our play in the 1st rd depending on which suits we block/don't block.

Richardb02 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 am
o you vary based on blocking Next or Reverse Next suits?
I have a hypothesis that I live and die by and it's worked out well: If you block nothing in seat 1, 2nd rd, always call something except when you're up 9-8, or tied 8-8--At those scores you gotta tighten up for obvious reasons.

This philosophy can lead to some rather crazy looking calls, and when things don't go your way expect your partner to get pissed. The reason why I play this way is it is my belief that when you block nothing the theoretical cost of getting euchred is so low (becuz you'll be blocking so many 2 pt, 4 pt, and 1 pt plays) that it's worth taking the risk on many otherwise dubious holdings.

I can distill seat 1, 2nd rd further. If I don't block reverse next, I will always force a call in something except at up 9-8 or 8-8. So saying what I would do when we block nothing is actually redundant since that's covered automatically when we don't block reverse next.

Example hand I just played in my Thursday tournament:

My team is up 4-1. The dealer upcard is the (Card_A-H)

I have (Card_Q-H) (Card_J-H) (Card_9-H) (Card_K-S) (Card_J-S) in the 1 seat.

Becuz the dealer is a very aggressive player, I decided to make a highly questionable pass, hoping he would pick up. Alas, he did not. Notice I don't block reverse next (and i also don't block 2 out of the 3 remaining suits). There is no way i'm passing the ball to seat 2 under these circumstances. I can't do that to my team. So then it comes down to should I call next with just the left and nothing else or go against Hoyle with Right + 1 and nothing else (at least I'm 2 suited tho). I decided our team's best chances of scratching out a point was to call spades. My partner had no trump but somehow we barely made the point anyways. But whether I made the point or not is irrelevant.

The most important take away is this: Becuz you MUST protect your team--that is seat 1's critical job--you only have two decisions with this hand: Call hearts in the 1st round or pass with the intention of calling spades. There is no other alternative. You can never pass-pass in this spot, that would be horrible seat 1 play.

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