3 Suited 2 Trump Partner called seat 2/4 First Round Question

[coolguy69]

So I was daydreaming this scenario and I was having a hard time knowing when to deviate. Here’s the thought:

If I’m in seat 2 or seat 4 (dealer), it’s first round, my partner orders me up, I have exactly (2) trump, and I’m able to trump the first lead on trick 1, I believe I will always lead my other trump on trick 2.



Say we’re in seat 2 with with up. We pass to our partner who picks it up. led, I trump with queen of spades and take it. Then I lead 9 of spades.

Or if I’m dealer, I have 1 trump, partner orders me up. Then I trump the opponent’s off-suit ace, then I play my 2nd trump lead to my partner’s call.

Obviously in these scenarios, if we ever have the left or right, we’re going to always lead those on trick 2 to our partner’s call…. But I also think I would lead trump in any case.

Are there scenarios where you might not use this logic?

[Wes (aka the legend)]

Are there scenarios where you might not use this logic?

I honestly can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't use that logic. Would play it the way you outlined everytime in that spot.

[irishwolf]

Of course there is a good exception to this when S2 order - THIN with two trumps without the Right and you have no off suit aces. S2 might be ordering thin as he has nothing to call on round 2.

Point is you have to know your partner - DOES HE ORDER THIN or orders having nothing else to call on R2? Yes, leading trump works the majority of the time but there are Exceptions. Consider what if opponents have the off-suit aces? Or one opponent has both Jacks or three trumps? If you have the off-suit Aces, sure lead.
For me personally, ordering from S2 I do not like a trump lead unless Dealer has Left or the Right. I can't tell you how many times ordering from S2 and Dealer leads me trump. Lead me something I can trump. Sometimes you have sneak in the back door getting your third trick. Ordering thin, sometimes makes the difference in close games. Leading trump is NOT always the best move.

Different story when the Dealer is the maker and S2 has two trumps and wins the first trick. Or wins the trick with an ace and has one trump of any size. Or if S2 is a conservative player and orders.

IRISHWOLF

[irishwolf]

Perhaps, we should continue and expand upon the discussion above on leading trump when S3 orders.

FROM S2: What is safe order and what is a risky order from S2 when the Dealer only has 2 trumps assuming S4 trumps the first trick and leads trump? Clearly the Right + one other trump plus an off Ace singleton/doubleton. S2 orders with three trumps (any) and a doubleton. (As you have two voids!)
But you MUST order with three trumps unless you have two Jacks in opposite color. Always those damn exceptions in euchre.

FROM S4 (DEALER): The dealer on the other hand with two trumps and an ace is a pretty safe situation to lead trump. Or if you only hold two with one being the Left or the Right, lead it. (This assumes you take the first trick with a low trump or an off suit ace. Two low trumps at S4 and no ace with two singleton off suit cards - YOU ARE NOW FOREWARNED!

Consider getting euchred, even an order from S2 with Left + 1 and an Ace can result in a euchre of Dealer has two low trumps (below the Ace). Just requires S3 having the Right sitting behind S2 with the right voids. There are too many examples, I can think of to spell these out.

Thus, leading trump to your partner is a MYTH unless your partner is conservative. Shit happens to blindly leading trump as a iron clad rule. Winning is in the margines with risky hands. Stay on the offensive because it is harder to be euchre the opponent than it is to making a point. You just have to know when it's prudent. Know your partner and consider the score.

IRISHWOLF

[coolguy69]

Are there scenarios where you might not use this logic?

I honestly can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't use that logic. Would play it the way you outlined everytime in that spot.

Thanks!

[irishwolf]

coolguy,

So with your last post, this assumes you are discounting what I posted?

IRISHWOLF

[justme]

Of course there is a good exception to this when S2 order - THIN with two trumps without the Right and you have no off suit aces. S2 might be ordering thin as he has nothing to call on round 2.

IRISHWOLF

The above quote shows my only exception to the rule of thumb, but only when the other team is on 9. At 2nd seat and nothing to make if it passes to you, it's do or die, call it thin.

Only too often throughout games when my partner doesn't trust my trump call and call out trump, either when he has the lead after my naming trump or after winning the 1st trick and not calling out trump for me, we are reduced to winning a single point, when 2 points were in the cards. It's a bummer when you you lose by one or 2 points and your partner plays like they are always second guessing you and not leading trump when they darn well should, costing your team points that were there.

A double whammy to me occurs when I get a partner who doesn't lead out trump in senarios like the ones Coolguy has identified and that same partner also habitually makes trump when weak (thin). It's damned hard winning games when your partner doesn't give you a chance by their making decisions that lead your team to a lot of second best plays.

[coolguy69]

coolguy,

So with your last post, this assumes you are discounting what I posted?

IRISHWOLF

I trust Wes and he answered succinctly, and I don’t care too much about how my partner plays poorly or something, I want to make the right play from my vantage point. Because my partner has a range of hands they order with and therefore I don’t know when my partner orders very thin, I think in most cases we should just lead trump 2nd trick.

Good point about there may be an exception if the score is 9:9, partner orders thin, and our team is aiming for 1 point to win, we might want to bag the 2nd trump if we are 2 suited to try to trump off aces

Example:
Score 9:9
Partner (who is sound and aggressive) orders a 9 of clubs up for us. We discard and have 9 of clubs, 10 of clubs, 10 J A of hearts. Ace of spades led, followed by both S2 S3, we trump with the 10. Now, we might lead A of hearts because it may get trumped and maybe diamonds gets led trick 3 which we can trump, and our P who ordered potentially thin can play off of it.

[irishwolf]

You said, "I trust Wes and he answered succinctly, and I don’t care too much about how my partner plays poorly or something, I want to make the right play from my vantage point. " If that is the case, why Post?

Just email Wes for you answer.

IRISHWOLF

[irishwolf]

Justme:

I agree when you order and your partner in the Correct situation does not lead trump. I covered those hands where he should trump in my write-up.
However, with thin hand S2 ordered, making a Sweep when the Dealer takes the first trick (no off suit Ace), and now you have to win four (4) tricks is statistically against you (S2). I say my way your are expanding the universe of making your point.

"A double whammy to me occurs when I get a partner who doesn't lead out trump in senarios like the ones Coolguy has identified and that same partner also habitually makes trump when weak (thin). It's damned hard winning games when your partner doesn't give you a chance by their making decisions that lead your team to a lot of second best plays. Sweeps are about 16% when making trump. My way gives you better EUCHRE PLAY.

IRISHWOLF

[justme]

"However, with thin hand S2 ordered, making a Sweep when the Dealer takes the first trick (no off suit Ace), and now you have to win four (4) tricks is statistically against you (S2). I say my way your are expanding the universe of making your point."

Excluding when the opponents are on 9, when a partner makes trump the onus is on him to produce either 2 tricks for the team or what looks like a high probability of him getting 2 tricks. Fair to say sometimes count on your partner for a trick. It is a poor call which, when analyzed properly by a maker, strongly indicates he will likely take at least only one trick.

Fortunately, sometimes the moons are aligned and your partner is there to save your ass, meaning he would have likely made trump himself. Thin calls that get euchred come only with muttered excuses such as "My partner should know I call thin so he should have known not to make the best overall euchre play to my call. Or, there is the favorite online excuse, "Sorry P, I misclicked. When any thin call is made and that players partner is a good player I wouldn't expect that partner to make less than the better of euchre plays. In the situations mentioned by Coolguy, that requires lead/call out trump.

" "Sweeps are about 16% when making trump. My way gives you better EUCHRE PLAY."

Regardless of the sweep % you state, the fact is a sweep normally pays off more than a single point and you don't get them when you don't play for them.
16% is not average rate for a less than ideal playing.

I fully disagree with the ordinary lines of play you are suggesting, Irishwolf. Not leading/calling trump in Coolguy's senario will cause a loss of potential points, long run. And making trump thin, counting on your partner to not lead/callout will lead to several more euchres against your team.

[irishwolf]

I just give FACTS based on hundreds of games and hands I have documented Justme. I care not if you agree or disagree. Play as you may.

IRISHWOLF

[justme]

I just give FACTS based on hundreds of games and hands I have documented Justme. I care not if you agree or disagree. Play as you may.

IRISHWOLF

lol @ care not! No worries. You go on documenting. And I should tell you I really don't need a prompt from you to continue my 62+ years of playing euchre very well. Now I'll be happy if you go huff and puff at your party without me.

[irishwolf]

lol @ 62+ years! It's a FACT, years or games played says nothing about Skill.
My cousin Ned has 63 years of playing but he hasn't considered a new fact that would improve his play for 55 years. He is set in his ways. I knew this lady back in the days playing on Yahoo euchre played 50,000 games and her win percentage was only 50.1%.

If you want to improve your games you look at NEW ways and strategies with your partner. Euchre is a game of statistics and probability. It appears it were not aware that 16% is the average euchre rate, as 65% is the average 1 points and leaving 17% for Sweeps.

IRISHWOLF

[justme]

lol @ 62+ years! It's a FACT, years or games played says nothing about Skill.
My cousin Ned has 63 years of playing but he hasn't considered a new fact that would improve his play for 55 years. He is set in his ways. I knew this lady back in the days playing on Yahoo euchre played 50,000 games and her win percentage was only 50.1%.

If you want to improve your games you look at NEW ways and strategies with your partner. Euchre is a game of statistics and probability. It appears it were not aware that 16% is the average euchre rate, as 65% is the average 1 points and leaving 17% for Sweeps.

IRISHWOLF

Seems you missed the part of what I said. Wholly was written "62+ years of playing euchre VERY WELL" Beyond that it doesn't interest me to discuss with you my Euchre background. Don't pretend to know my playing skills, you're clueless there. Take your chest pounding condescending lecturing to cousin Ned or that lady whose average you stalked on Yahoo. They my fall for your know it all act. We done or do you need the last word again?

[irishwolf]

lol ON "do you need the last word again?"

[Tbolt65]

So I was daydreaming this scenario and I was having a hard time knowing when to deviate. Here’s the thought:

If I’m in seat 2 or seat 4 (dealer), it’s first round, my partner orders me up, I have exactly (2) trump, and I’m able to trump the first lead on trick 1, I believe I will always lead my other trump on trick 2.



Say we’re in seat 2 with with up. We pass to our partner who picks it up. led, I trump with queen of spades and take it. Then I lead 9 of spades.

Or if I’m dealer, I have 1 trump, partner orders me up. Then I trump the opponent’s off-suit ace, then I play my 2nd trump lead to my partner’s call.

Obviously in these scenarios, if we ever have the left or right, we’re going to always lead those on trick 2 to our partner’s call…. But I also think I would lead trump in any case.

Are there scenarios where you might not use this logic?

There are scenario's where you would normally play a certain way all the time but put that same card set up in another scenario, you'd definitely play it a different way. As various factors change, the way you play a hand "can" change. As it should. One needs to be always adaptative to the "situation". Always be aware of all and every possibilities and work the best you can with them.

With your two scenario's you leave out key information. So any information is speculative at best but Like I said you can say what one might do in general terms but it is highly, highly, highly situational. I can say sure you can do this and that but to take that answer or any answer from anyone with all the variables NOT taken in consideration will lead one down the wrong path. That's the path of assumption for all scenario's that this would be correct to play in. So with that said. Be more specific.


Tbolt65

Edward

[Tbolt65]

coolguy,

So with your last post, this assumes you are discounting what I posted?

IRISHWOLF

I trust Wes and he answered succinctly, and I don’t care too much about how my partner plays poorly or something, I want to make the right play from my vantage point. Because my partner has a range of hands they order with and therefore I don’t know when my partner orders very thin, I think in most cases we should just lead trump 2nd trick.

Good point about there may be an exception if the score is 9:9, partner orders thin, and our team is aiming for 1 point to win, we might want to bag the 2nd trump if we are 2 suited to try to trump off aces

Example:
Score 9:9
Partner (who is sound and aggressive) orders a 9 of clubs up for us. We discard and have 9 of clubs, 10 of clubs, 10 J A of hearts. Ace of spades led, followed by both S2 S3, we trump with the 10. Now, we might lead A of hearts because it may get trumped and maybe diamonds gets led trick 3 which we can trump, and our P who ordered potentially thin can play off of it.

You indeed need to care of not how only your partner plays but how your opponent's play and why. If you do not consider this valuable information. You will not be maximizing most if not all situations.

At 9-9 knowing how your partner orders is critical and why they order. You just contradicted yourself with partners order's thin. You said just above it you didn't care how your partner ordered.

Anyways, with having the two trump and you now say they are sound and aggressive. With you taking the first trick and only having the 9c left. I'd would advocate leading trump back to your partner. Other trump holdings it may play differently but we are talking about what you just gave us. Lead it back. get trump out. This should help your partner and clear some other trump out. now with you being two suited you got your 1 trick and you can still possibly take one more or force the remaining trump out with your Ace of hearts after you lead trump after the first trick.

So for this particular scenario at 9-9, after taking first trick lead your last low 9 of clubs back to help set up your Ace, your partners potential Ace and or High doubleton.

Tbolt65
Edward

[Tbolt65]

I just give FACTS based on hundreds of games and hands I have documented Justme. I care not if you agree or disagree. Play as you may.

IRISHWOLF

lol @ care not! No worries. You go on documenting. And I should tell you I really don't need a prompt from you to continue my 62+ years of playing euchre very well. Now I'll be happy if you go huff and puff at your party without me.

To be fair, length of time playing any game, not just euchre. Is no indication of superior play. Superior play comes by playing against superior opponents and continuous rigorous study of the game. Sure by sheer volume of games and years playing you can get good but by no means that defaults one as a superior player. Some people play the game for a long time and have no idea what a defensive call is or a donate at 9-7 or 9-6 for a simplified example. Or even learning to play off or duck on their partners boss cards at any time during the hand. Thats also a mistake people make that they shouldn't that have played the game for many years. Anyways just two small examples of which there are many to be had. I'm just giving context to my exposition in my response to you.

I know people who have just learned the game and only been playing maybe a couple years to possibly 3 years and they are already better than 80% of all euchre players. Its due to the type of information they are exposed to and players they play against and the who is teaching them. Some people just aren't exposed to various situations and scenarios due to the lack of competition or superior play, information and teachers of the game. That's just how it is. Anyone can play and win at euchre but to be great at the game requires dedication and constantly looking to improve and play against the better players. Everyone and I mean every euchre players games plateau's out due to the situations I mentioned. No one is exempt from that. Because even for the great players, the great players pool thins out as they move up and hence their game may be great but it can stagnate or even regress if they don't keep their game sharp at the higher level of play. I have personal experience with this as well.



Tbolt65

Edward

[irishwolf]

Well said Ed, both Posts!

[Wes (aka the legend)]

I trust Wes and he answered succinctly, and I don’t care too much about how my partner plays poorly or something, I want to make the right play from my vantage point. Because my partner has a range of hands they order with and therefore I don’t know when my partner orders very thin, I think in most cases we should just lead trump 2nd trick.

Exactly. You're not psychic. All you can do here is make the best lead for your partner's range. That's it. Sometimes things will go bad but that's irrelevant. That's just noise.

Good point about there may be an exception if the score is 9:9, partner orders thin, and our team is aiming for 1 point to win, we might want to bag the 2nd trump if we are 2 suited to try to trump off aces

Possible exceptions to the "always lead trump" rule can only occur whenever our team is at 9 points or when the enemy is at 9 points becuz the EV changes at those scores. In the former case the math/EV changes becuz a 2 pt march is now only worth 1 point. In the latter case our team getting euchred is now only worth -1 points instead of -2. Frankly I don't think the latter case--when the enemy has 9 pts--is relevant. I'm throwing that scenario out of this discussion unless someone can give me a compelling reason why that spot could matter. The former case--those times our team is at 9 pts--is VERY relevant. Our 2 point marches only being worth 1 pt seems like a pretty big deal.

That said, even at 9 points I would bet a lot of money that leading trump is still best from the hand configuration example in your OP. Go back and look at that hand. Look at your hand on 2nd street. In that spot all you have is 1 low trump and no fresh voids. If you hold back that trump and lead something else it becomes virtually strategically worthless but leading trump in that spot has real strategic value, it potentially takes out two enemy trump with one lead.

So my stance is this:

1) When our team has 8 pts or less making the best lead for our P's range is all that matters. Lead trump on 2nd street. No intuitive argument can sway me from this position. Only hard data from a good simulator can get my attention.

2) When we have 9 points I understand that a possible exception can occur becuz the EV changes. But I would bet lots of money that the exception to the rule will NOT occur when all we have on 2nd street is one low trump and no fresh voids. I would still assert that always leading trump is best for our team in that situation.

Example:
Score 9:9
Partner (who is sound and aggressive) orders a 9 of clubs up for us. We discard and have 9 of clubs, 10 of clubs, 10 J A of hearts. Ace of spades led, followed by both S2 S3, we trump with the 10. Now, we might lead A of hearts because it may get trumped and maybe diamonds gets led trick 3 which we can trump, and our P who ordered potentially thin can play off of it.

Now we're cooking with gas here! If there's going to be a spot where not leading trump on 2nd street is correct this is what it would look like! Here's all the good things going for this exception:

1) The score is right, we have 9 pts.

2) On 2nd street we still have a fresh void in diamonds to work with if we don't lead trump.

3) By correctly trumping in with the TC on 1st street we are letting our P know we still have a trump left.

4) What if we only executed this strategy (don't lead trump on 2nd street) when we have a fresh void left to work with and our P knows this! So anytime we lead the AH on 2nd street our P will instantly know we have a void in diamonds (and ofc he already knows we have a trump left). Not only is this information valuable, it allows our P to play perfectly. He can even play off on a possible AD lead from S1 on 3rd street (if S1 trumps in and wins the trick on 2nd street).

So yeah I'm totally on board with not leading trump in that spot. Even without a good sim, I feel good about it. It's too beautiful to be wrong! Seriously tho, I'd put my money that this is an exception to the rule.

Summary:

1) When we have 8 or less always lead trump in this spot. KISS principle applies. Do what's best for your P's range. If someone doesn't agree go to r/euchre. There's like 3 guys with good sims on there. Post this spot/debate and ask someone to sim leading trump vs not leading trump. Straight up arguing over this is a waste of everyone's time.

2) When we have 9 pts and no fresh voids left, I would assert that always leading trump is the best play. This is the hypothesis that I would bet my money on.

3) When we are at 9 pts and we have a fresh void to work with on 2nd street don't lead trump (I'm excluding scenarios where our remaining trump is the Right or Left bower). This is the hypothesis I would bet money on.

[Wes (aka the legend)]

1) When we have 8 or less always lead trump in this spot. KISS principle applies. Do what's best for your P's range. If someone doesn't agree go to r/euchre. There's like 3 guys with good sims on there. Post this spot/debate and ask someone to sim leading trump vs not leading trump. Straight up arguing over this is a waste of everyone's time.

Thinking about this some more. The only vulnerability to this claim in my eyes, is the kinda spot Tom (coolguy69) already brought up in his later post. The spot where S2 orders and S4 starts off two suited with 2 trump and three of another suit. Even at 8 or less and the prospects of a non-trump lead hurting our team's chances of getting a 2 pt march it may still be the case that this unorthodox line does best. Keep in mind it only takes one hand example to refute the rather bold claim above of "When we have 8 or less always lead trump in this spot". If I were trying to falsify that claim I would create the most ideal spot for not leading trump as possible. I would test a hand like this:

Score is 0-0. Upcard isn

Someone super-aggressive like me orders up the dealer from S2. Once the dealer picks up he has

S1 leads the

S2, and S3 follow suit and S4 trumps in with the .

On 2nd street S4 now leads the

Important backstory. S2 and S4 are both top players who know each other well. S2 knows that S4 would ONLY take this line if S4 started with two voids and thus has a fresh void in clubs he can still trump. Thus S2 knows he can throw off on a S1 AC lead should that spot present itself. This is also a spot where S2 can easily see that S4 has another trump as the AS was the upcard and S4 hasn't played it yet so there's now way S2 can misread the situation.

It's certainly plausible to me that this kind of team chemistry/good hand reading by two top players could be enough to overcome the drawbacks to not leading trump in this specific spot. I don't know, we may never know, cuz I don't know if it's possible to get a sim to play this spot this way. Either way, it's plausible. If I'm trying to prove my claim wrong this is how I would do it.

What's highly implausible to me is not leading trump in those spots where S2 calls, S4 takes the first trick (or vice versa) and now has one trump left and no fresh voids to work with. Gotta lead that last trump on 2nd street. Would need super strong evidence--like from a good sim--to think otherwise.

[coolguy69]

coolguy,

So with your last post, this assumes you are discounting what I posted?

IRISHWOLF

I trust Wes and he answered succinctly, and I don’t care too much about how my partner plays poorly or something, I want to make the right play from my vantage point. Because my partner has a range of hands they order with and therefore I don’t know when my partner orders very thin, I think in most cases we should just lead trump 2nd trick.

Good point about there may be an exception if the score is 9:9, partner orders thin, and our team is aiming for 1 point to win, we might want to bag the 2nd trump if we are 2 suited to try to trump off aces

Example:
Score 9:9
Partner (who is sound and aggressive) orders a 9 of clubs up for us. We discard and have 9 of clubs, 10 of clubs, 10 J A of hearts. Ace of spades led, followed by both S2 S3, we trump with the 10. Now, we might lead A of hearts because it may get trumped and maybe diamonds gets led trick 3 which we can trump, and our P who ordered potentially thin can play off of it.

You indeed need to care of not how only your partner plays but how your opponent's play and why. If you do not consider this valuable information. You will not be maximizing most if not all situations.

At 9-9 knowing how your partner orders is critical and why they order. You just contradicted yourself with partners order's thin. You said just above it you didn't care how your partner ordered.

To clarify, at 9:9 a sound S2 P is going to often call thin - that’s what I meant by that.