Calling Trump when you have no Trump.

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Yankeeman50
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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:36 am

Calling Trump when you have no Trump.

Unread post by Yankeeman50 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:06 am

I play Euchre in the the Rochester NY area. I play three times a week and I also play on Euchre 3D. The rule here is that you have Trump to have the dealer pick up and the opposite bower is not Trump. I was playing on Euchre 3D and I was the dealer. My partner and I were behind 9-7. The cards were dealt and a spade was up. I had a sure spade loner. The seat to my left told me to to pick up that spade and I had to throw away Trump. He led a diamond Trump and of course I took it with my spade Trump. Then I led the Jack of Spades and he didn’t even have a spade. Of course I euchred him and the score was tied 9-9. He got the deal next and called diamonds and he and his partner got three tricks and won. My question is do other people play this way in other parts of the country in real live tournaments? If I wanted to play in a tournament and the rule better be that you have to have Trump to have the dealer pick up and the left is not Trump. If that rule isn’t in I wouldn’t play in that tournament. Thoughts on this please.



irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:46 am

You said, " My question is do other people play this way in other parts of the country in real live tournaments? If I wanted to play in a tournament and the rule better be that you have to have Trump to have the dealer pick up and the left is not Trump. If that rule isn’t in I wouldn’t play in that tournament. "

That was a great call by your opponent at 9 to 7. As to your question, Euchre is played in various ways and that rule in your local, MUST HAVE A NATURAL TRUMP", is a b u l l s h i t rule. Reason why is that is you limit the exciting way the game has always been played. And it works both ways, fair to all. But they do that in Chicago as well but the majority of the country does not have that rule. And most Tournaments in Michigan & Ohio do have it.

I have played a lot of euchre on various web sites, Trickster requires a trump (but Left is a trump you can Donate), Nidink & WOCG does not require a trump to order and the old Pogo & Yahoo did not require a trump. Joe Andrews The Grand Prix (“live”) World Series of Euchre played in various states did not have a rule that you had to have a trump to order. Chatgamers tournaments in Flint each year, is the same. You need to widen your experience in the game of Euchre because it is more common that you don't need a trump to order than your local rule.

As to the fascinating history of this game from its origin DID NOT REQUIRE A TRUMP, and in fact (when the game was to 5 points) highly recommended donating with the score was 4 to 1 or 2 for the opponents.

As to changing the rules of the game, you are destroying the exciting nature of this game by limited how it's played. And not playing in a tournament, how limiting and naive you are. And besides, what if 1st seat had only the 9 of trump and you had a fist ful. Is that not also the same Principle? Then your local rules would to require two trumps to order? You are changing the historical nature and statistical probability of the game.

STOP CRYING ABOUT THE RULES.

IRISH

Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:39 pm

The Natural trump to call is a variation on the game. The most common euchre is calling trump. Having a natural trump or any trump for that matter is not required. What is is making point if you don't you get euchred. With that said. What was employed against you was something called Defense. With opponents being up 9-7 and getting their deal next and a score of 9-9. They are hedging their bet basically to prevent a game ending loner in which they would lose if one was made. This is actually a valid play and often used strategy.


Tbolt65
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Yankeeman50
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Unread post by Yankeeman50 » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:05 am

In my part of the country you have to have 1 Trump to call me to pick up. I’m fine if you tell me to pick it up with one Trump but with no Trump to me it is crap and unfair.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:10 am

YANKEE, you obviously did not read my post.

IRISH

Yankeeman50
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Unread post by Yankeeman50 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:21 am

Irish I did read your post. You said I was naïve. Listen I have been playing Euchre for over 50 years and to me that is not the right way to play Euchre. If you want to spoil my loaner than you better have 1 Trump in your hand and it can’t be the left because that is a club. Play fair and play right!

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:25 pm

Yankeeman, nickname is CryBaby,

One person cannot determine FAIRNESS, and that is obviously your definition. Fairness is "impartial and just treatment or behavior without favoritism or discrimination."

Euchre Laws were established over 200 years ago. For example look at Dwight & Leed's, Laws of Euchre published 1888 or Professor Meehan 1862. You will NOT find that you have to have a trump to order.

Over 200 years "Laws" and I would define that as Common Law (of Euchre). Our Laws in the USA are based on the British system of Common law, also called Anglo-American law, the body of customary law, based upon Common Law courts of England since the Middle Ages.

You want to change those Laws. Those are local house rules that do not apply in the universe of the Euchre world.

Just because you have played euchre for 50 years now, means NOTHING. Have your ever read, obviously not, or played euchre with anyone outside your local area.

The answer is still, your one trump rule is no more fair that no trump rule established over 200 years ago. Stop Crying!

IRISH

Yankeeman50
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Unread post by Yankeeman50 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:05 am

Irish you really like to call people names. Rules are made to be changed if they are unfair. Just because it was a rule 200 years ago doesn’t mean it is right in today’s Euchre. Do you always call people names just because they disagree with you?There are tons of people in the Rochester NY area that play with the rule that you have at least Trump to call Trump to stop a loaner. What part of the country do live in Irish? I will make sure that I won’t play Euchre in your area. I play on Euchre 3D my handle is Yankeeman50. Play me if you dare.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:17 am

Still a CRYBABY - get out and experience what Euchre is all about.

"Do you always call people names just because they disagree with you?There are tons of people in the Rochester NY area that play with the rule that you have at least Trump to call Trump to stop a lo. . ."

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:27 am

Having played in many different states and a couple of places in Canada and all had played standard euchre.

It's of general interest that Wikipedia lists this "Natural trump rule" under the heading of a variation of Euchre. Also listed are under the same heading are others such as with No ace, No face; Going under.

All these different variations distract from the game.

justme
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Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:06 pm

Unread post by justme » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:14 pm

Dlan wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:27 am
Having played in many different states and a couple of places in Canada and all had played standard euchre.

It's of general interest that Wikipedia lists this "Natural trump rule" under the heading of a variation of Euchre. Also listed are under the same heading are others such as with No ace, No face; Going under.

All these different variations distract from the game.
You have ignored the fact that STD is also a VARIATION, a stupid needless one which has made the game of euchre less enjoyable for many. Another needless adjustment which changed the face of euchre was raisng the final score from 5 to 10. Perhaps variations are not distractions from the game at all. They might just be making the game better for people with biases different from others.

****Most disturbing in this discussion thread is the bullying language that occurs in some of the replies. Acceptance of it by the sites host is simply outrageous and severely serves to limit participation at this forum. There's a reason there is normally only the same 3 to 4 participants thread after thread. Maybe it's because good people prefer to avoid know-it-all bullies.

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:45 pm

Well Justme, I can't let your comments stand without some push back.

First, your comment, "You have ignored the fact that STD is also a VARIATION, a stupid needless one which has made the game of euchre less enjoyable for many."

You calling Dlan comment, ignored (variant of IGNORANT), AND STUPID NEEDLESS. He did not say it was all inclusive of the variants of euchre or that they were bad just that they are not Standard euchre.
Additionally, You failed to add any explanation as to your statement saying Needless. Why do you think it Stupid and Needless?

So what you are in fact saying anyone playing STD is stupid!
Appears that you are the BULLY! You comments could be Bullying, in that HEY, you missed one, shame on YOU!

You should have explained yourself and ADD something of value to the conversation. I am of the opinion, you added nothing about variants of euchre as to Making the game BETTER! HOW? & WHY? What & why does STD, being Stupid and Needless to back up your Biased statements. Add something of value. FYI, I could give you at least five more variants of the game. They are variants only, not needless or stupid, and neither is the variant of NO TRUMP ORDER rule. It and those, are variants.

This forum is free and open, to any statements of difference. It where you you get a variety of differing opinions. But you want the Administrator to step in and do what? Audit comments? Just what do you want him to do, EXPLAIN and justify what, how and why. I think he does an excellent job of letting the forum conversation play out. It is give and take, room for disagreement, etc. etc. Just an opinion. And I myself have been on both the giving and the receiving side. My advice, give facts and get a thicker skin if you do not like the conversation.

As to my comments, I will not apologize for knowing the history of euchre and my experience, playing in tournaments in numerous states, including Canada. I gave the FACTS to a question that was asked. One that the variant Yankee does not like or will not accept, that being order with one natural trump. It is was not historic to the game. Two, the many websites and areas in the country outside of Rochester, NY do not observe his rule. Yet, he continued to say, UNFAIR and would not play in that tournament. That is fine, but I added he was not knowledgeable about the Facts. He persisted, so I said he was crying about the rules. I did not call him stupid or even suggest that. If being called a CryBaby, and not accepting factual information is Bullying, then so be it!

I gave specific reason that NO trump, 1 trump or 2 trump requirement but got no explanation, only that he played euchre for 50 years. (that means little if you play only in your local area that the rules never change) I have played with numerous players from that area in tournaments and they did not complain about the no trump rule, Joe Andrews World Series of Euchre - Cincinnati, Cleveland, Niagara Falls, CA, Lansing, Columbus, CA. Those are facts, not bullying.
For Yankee, he could have said, okay, it is a variant, I like the variant and choose to only play that way. He got his answer but did not want to hear it. He wanted someone to agree with his biases is my guess. Life is not that way.

And Justme, if you are going to throw stones, gives some FACTS is my advice so we can learn something, please. SO NOW YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO GIVE SOME FACTS!

IRISH

justme
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Unread post by justme » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm

irishwolf wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:45 pm
Well Justme, I can't let your comments stand without some push back.

First, your comment, "You have ignored the fact that STD is also a VARIATION, a stupid needless one which has made the game of euchre less enjoyable for many."

You calling Dlan comment, ignored (variant of IGNORANT)

IRISH
ignored means failed to acknowledge - verb
ignorant means lacking knowledge - adjective
neither is a variant of the other

FACTS! >Your pushback, as you call it, is mostly more long-winded twisted BS, not deserving of further reply. I pity you. You're full of yourself and you likely will never learn how to adress others respectfully, remaining stunted forever.
Last edited by justme on Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:26 pm

And I gave you a chance to explain yourself, ..." "And Justme, if you are going to throw stones, gives some FACTS is my advice so we can learn something, please. SO NOW YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO GIVE SOME FACTS! Instead of staying on subject, you employ "ad hominem". So again, stick to the subject and add some justification for your comments as discussed above.

And you chose to avoid the question(s). So again, stick to the subject and add some justification for your comments as discussed above.

It very doubtful you have any facts. So we disagree, Justme!

IRISH

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:59 pm

Yankee man, "Yankeeman50. Play me if you dare."

I will play you any time. Just come to Monday or Friday OE Euchre, if you dare!

You to Justme!

Just post a day or so in advance.

IRISH

irishwolf
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:20 am

Staying focused on the issue:

So back to Yankeeman's position on the call of ordering with NO TRUMP, is it fair?

What is the supporting position that this is UNFAIR VS Ordering with one trump is fair?

You can't just say something is Unfair without some logical explanation. You can't say, well Aunt Molly and Uncle Rufus said that's according to Hoyle!

We know how those variants to the original rules come into play - someone's loner got spoiled! However, when some variant enters the game, does it reduce or increase the statistical variation of the game and give the less skill more of a chance (like going under, Partner's Best, Ace-No Face, STD - all introduced that favor giving the less skilled player a beter chance)? The Jack as the upcard when the score is 9 to 6/7 is as much Luck. And the donate by the opposing team when this occurs is a statistical dynamic that makes the game more interesting as it cuts both ways. And it was there from the origin of the game.

And the game to 5 points, that is not the whole story. The fame was played to 5 points, but in a series ob best of 3 games to 5 points - THE RUBBER.

IRISH

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