Taking your partners trump

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Dlan
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Taking your partners trump

Unread post by Dlan » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:30 pm

And not playing for two points may cost your team.


https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

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On second round, the first seat calls next with J,J,10 and two off suit cards. With these cards, it's unlikely that they would be will be euchred.

But, not playing as a team and giving their partner a chance to help resulted in them not making the second point.



Tbolt65
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Unread post by Tbolt65 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:39 pm

Don there is no link.

Tbolt65
Edward

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Dlan
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Unread post by Dlan » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:59 pm

:oops: OPPS :oops:

Fixed, Thanks Ed

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:59 pm

SHOULDA COULDA WOULDA:
Leading to obsession eliminates Sweeps. Does not always work but you lead the 2nd bower you reduce the chance of a sweep as you have to hit his Ace doubleton if he has it. Trust your partner. I have had it work against me too - only S3 has one trump and my partner had that Ace doubleton. However, you have a better chance at not leading the 2nd bower. It can work against you though. If S2 had the 2nd trump and you lead the off suit and he sloughs and S4 wins they can put you in a squeeze. So it does just depend and it's not 100%.

About 95% of the players would lead the 2nd bower.

In this hand your can't be euchred as S2 was void of trump.

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Dlan wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:30 pm
And not playing for two points may cost your team.


https://worldofcardgames.com/#!replayer ... %3A1%7D%5D

Image

On second round, the first seat calls next with J,J,10 and two off suit cards. With these cards, it's unlikely that they would be will be euchred.

But, not playing as a team and giving their partner a chance to help resulted in them not making the second point.
This is a bad example. After S1 leads the bower and S2 shows void in trump and S4 plays just the 9 of trump, odds are S4 has another trump. After this precise action, it's imperative that S1 leads the other bower on 2nd street. There are certainly times where S1 should not lead trump again, but not in this specific spot. The best way to play for 2 in this spot is to try to clean out S4 on 2nd street.

If S2 had not shown void in trump then we'd have a different story. Then there would be only one trump left in the wild (AH) which could be in your P's hand or the kitty. Now not leading trump again has merit. Or if we had the same action as before with S2 being void but S4 played the AH on first street instead of the 9H, there's now a good chance S4 has no more trump, so best not to lead trump again. So there are plenty of examples where S1 should not lead another bower on 2nd street, but after S2 shows void and S4 plays the low 9H, S1 MUST lead trump again. That action screams for it. Now sure there will be times where correctly leading trump again burns S1 like in this hand, but what happens in one particular hand is not really relevant. What matters is what's the best overall strategy in the long run for this specific spot.

Pop quiz: in this specific hand after S2 leads the other bower on 2nd street what card should he lead on 3rd street and why? (There are probably less than 5 people on this planet who can answer this question correctly. Good luck!)

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:45 am

I think we should further discuss two topics with the hand above. Was it really a bad idea to lead the 2nd bower on trick 2?

You know only the KH & AH are unknown trumps. Thus, your partner could have the AH as well as the dealer. It's next and S3 should have another heart and maybe even two. A lot also depends on who that Dealer is? You know S2 has no more Diamonds so I see no issue with S1 leading a spade or club on 2nd trick to hit your partner's void so he can trump then lead a diamond for S1 to over trump the dealer's trick. Just a chance you have to take. You can't get euchred as S2 has shown that he has no trump. I say the probability of S4 having the AH is no worse than equal that S3 has AH, and depends as much on the tendencies of S3 & S4. 1endancies? If S4 is bagging he could have AH/KH and leading the 2nd bower on trick 2, you could get euchred.

Now to the Pop Quiz? After the 2nd lead of the the Jack, all trumps are known, and yes S2 played a low club. Obvious that S2 has no more diamonds and might as well have a doubleton club and a doubleton Spade. You don't know what your partner has and that is what is critical. So for me it is such that S1 should actually lead his other trump card. What does this do?

It allows forces opponents to slough their weakest suit and allows S3 to sort his hand and gives S1 a better idea of which suit to lead on trick 4 - spades or clubs. :o

IRISHWOLF

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:32 pm

I WANT TO KNOW WHO THE OTHER 4 ARE?

"(There are probably less than 5 people on this planet who can answer this question correctly. Good luck!)"

IRISHWOLF

irishwolf
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Unread post by irishwolf » Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:48 pm

. . . and if S1 leads the 10H to trick 3, what should S2 play to his lead? And Why?

I bet there are not 3 humans walking this Planet know the correct answer!

IRISH

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:24 am

irishwolf wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:45 am
Now to the Pop Quiz? After the 2nd lead of the the Jack, all trumps are known, and yes S2 played a low club. Obvious that S2 has no more diamonds and might as well have a doubleton club and a doubleton Spade. You don't know what your partner has and that is what is critical. So for me it is such that S1 should actually lead his other trump card. What does this do?

It allows forces opponents to slough their weakest suit and allows S3 to sort his hand and gives S1 a better idea of which suit to lead on trick 4 - spades or clubs. :o

IRISHWOLF
The above is correct. The idea is if S3 is playing well he will hold to his offsuit doubleton Ace if he has one for the last 2 streets as that is the best way to play for 2 from his perspective. This means that the suit S3 plays on 3rd street will tend to be the suit he is NOT covering as he would not want to break up his doubleton ace. This is why S1 should lead the final trump on 3rd street so he can see which suit NOT to lead on 4th street. This allows S1 a much better chance of hitting his P's doubleton Ace--those times he has one. Also those times S3 has an AKx tripleton Ace or two aces AK+A he can now also signal to his P what he IS covering when S1 leads trump on 3rd street. Those times S3 has a tripleton Ace without the King his team is out of luck as S3 will be forced to send S1 a false signal. But overall this ploy works very well, so well that it may even be best for S1 to always lead the other bower on 2nd street ANY time there's a good chance the enemy still has trump becuz S1 will still have a good chance at picking up 2 points those times his P has that doubleton ace as long as he leads trump on 3rd street to gain information of what not to lead on 4th street (IOW getting your cake and eating it too).

What's also cool about this strategy is it works well whether your P in S3 is an expert or an amateur becuz even amateurs tend to instinctively hold onto their doubleton ace. Where amateurs predictably fail tho is they never give you the right signal when they have that tripleton AKx. They play the X instead of the Ace sending S1 a false signal that they are not covering that suit when in fact they are. And amateurs will once in a while send a false signal by needlessly breaking up their doubleton ace on 3rd street but I would guess that 80% of the time they don't.

Wes (aka the legend)
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Unread post by Wes (aka the legend) » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:26 am

irishwolf wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:32 pm
I WANT TO KNOW WHO THE OTHER 4 ARE?

"(There are probably less than 5 people on this planet who can answer this question correctly. Good luck!)"

IRISHWOLF
I was just guessing. The truth is you are the only one I know who has gotten this answer right. There are 4 experts in my tournament. I would actually bet money they would get this question wrong, but I've never asked them. Edward would now get it right tho assuming he's seen this thread.

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